Diet, lifestyle, the mind, and hair loss

[baller234]

[quote="s.a.f":3cxsuu76]We are all slaves to our genetics the sensitivity of our follicles to DHT is something we are born with.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that.

Err its scientific fact, coded into our DNA like the shape/size of your nose or colour of your eyes/skin or wether your hair is curly or straight, light or dark. Or maybe you believe that eating wholegrains will also magicly alter all that aswell.[/quote:3cxsuu76]

I was referring to your claims about your "healthy" diet...

 

[baller234]

Why do you want to believe so badly that diet significantly affects hair loss?

Why do you want to believe so badly that it doesn't?

Listen I'm not advocating a drop all treatments and focus only on diet philosophy. What I'm saying is diet DOES influence the amount of hormones you produce. If you want to treat your hair loss you need to take that into consideration. If you eat a diet that promotes excessive hormone production and lowers SHBG, you're just making it that much harder for your regimen to be effective.

precisely

I don't understand why people don't take this stuff on board either, but like I say I just try to keep my views my own a bit as I've learnt that it's possible to argue forever particularly on internet forums! lol

I'm dumbfounded too. It's been shown that diet and excercise effect the outcome of other androgen mediated diseases such as BPH so I don't see how people can delude themselves into thinking Androgenetic Alopecia is somehow different. If I had to guess, I'd say that it's easier to just convince yourself it makes no difference than it is to restructure your dietary habitats and lifestyle.

 

[LewdBear]

Why do you want to believe so badly that it doesn't?

I don't. But over the past week or so, you've thrown out a lot of ideas on this topic (both here and on HLH).

For example, you've talked about a certain level of androgen needed to 'activate the gene for Androgenetic Alopecia'. On HLH, it seemed as though you were proposing the idea that the right diet might prevent balding.

The first problem is that you overestimate the amount of androgen required. Women experience FPB and recession during adolescence with far less androgen than men. Men continue to bald throughout andropause as their free testosterone decreases. Also, younger men bald all throughout the normal range of total and free testosterone.

In the case of diet, you might be able lower total testosterone by 12-13% (Sources : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15741266 http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2512100) But only a small amount of free testosterone and DHT is reduced. There really isn't evidence to say that this modest reduction would substantially improve or prevent balding. Just because it might negatively influence BPH does NOT necessarily mean it influences Androgenetic Alopecia. You need direct evidence.

Also, there's the issue of how relevant circulating androgens are vs. localized androgens and 5-ar activity in the scalp itself, but Bryan covered that in the other thread.

Listen I'm not advocating a drop all treatments and focus only on diet philosophy. What I'm saying is diet DOES influence the amount of hormones you produce.

To a small degree, yes. But unless you are proposing a scenario where a person is inducing hypogonadism (which is essentially what would be required) through diet, it's not going to stop balding. Even if that were possible, it would be stupid and dangerous.

I think we know the limits of what can, with relative safety, be achieved through manipulation of circulating androgen. It's simply not a case of 'lower is better' (unless you are transgendered).

 

[Hoppi]

Ok, with the gene activation thing in follicles I stand slightly corrected, I didn't realize anything fundamentally CHANGED in your follicles or really anywhere in your body, apart from maybe hormonal balance fluctuations.

With that in mind, I don't believe that diet/lifestyle/stress management ALONE can fix the problem, perhaps we will always need to cap our (scalp) DHT with with say a combo of beta-Sitosterol/Finasteride/Dutasteride and Ketaconazole, but these three factors still make life easier for your hair follicles by showering them with less DHT. They will also of course improve your entire body health, and that can't hurt for ANY medical condition

But yes, I was partially wrong on that (but hey I've only been doing research on this for around a week, which is when I noticed it in myself!) but the points still mostly stand

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

Poor diet can lead to elevated levels of depression which can cause exaggerated inflammatory responses exacerbated by stress. Food is as much of a drug as finasteride is, it works in different ways but you get a much heavier dose of it throughout your day.

 

[Boondock]

I think it can make a difference, but if you're destined to go bald, however strict a diet you keep I believe you will still go bald. It might save you a little time (perhaps a year max?), but that's about it.

 

[treeshrew]

either you believe hair loss is purely genetic, or you don't.

unfortunately, science has not definitively proved it either way.

in my opinion, it is genetic.

i am 6'5" (196cm) to be honest i don't like being this tall, i'd rather be a "normal" height.

but do you think stress/diet/exercise would have an impact on my height?

i don't. and neither do i think it would have an effect on my hair loss.

 

[Hoppi]

either you believe hair loss is purely genetic, or you don't.

unfortunately, science has not definitively proved it either way.

in my opinion, it is genetic.

i am 6'5" (196cm) to be honest i don't like being this tall, i'd rather be a "normal" height.

but do you think stress/diet/exercise would have an impact on my height?

i don't. and neither do i think it would have an effect on my hair loss.

that's a massive over-simplification. I never, ever said I thought it was purely dietary, lifestyle-related, triggered mentally or genetic. I am saying it is a combination of these things, although yes having the gene (and I suppose having it activated also, depending on where truth lies here) means you will also need to protect your hair follicles to some extent from the DHT, or they will suffer.

 

[treeshrew]

I am saying it is a combination of these things

OK Hoppi.

It's certainly possible that lifestyle and diet effect genetics.

There has been no science that has definitely proved it either way.

Hopefully at some point in the future we may all be enlightened to the mysteries of life

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Listen I'm not advocating a drop all treatments and focus only on diet philosophy. What I'm saying is diet DOES influence the amount of hormones you produce. If you want to treat your hair loss you need to take that into consideration. If you eat a diet that promotes excessive hormone production and lowers SHBG, you're just making it that much harder for your regimen to be effective.

BINGO!

 

[OverMachoGrande]

I'm dumbfounded too. It's been shown that diet and excercise effect the outcome of other androgen mediated diseases such as BPH so I don't see how people can delude themselves into thinking Androgenetic Alopecia is somehow different. If I had to guess, I'd say that it's easier to just convince yourself it makes no difference than it is to restructure your dietary habitats and lifestyle.

BINGO!

 

[lanvinman]

Surely people who are genetically prone to being overweight can avert their DNA's plan for them by not overeating.

Surely Ectomorph (Skinny) body types can be trained and fed to overcome this.

The the onset of acne on those predisposed to skin problems be affected by healthy diet and hydration.

People who are gentically prone to depression can avert/treat this through exercise and healthy lifestyle.

male pattern baldness is heavily associated with hormonal balance and distribution.

OF COURSE diet and lifestyle can affect it.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Surely people who are genetically prone to being overweight can avert their DNA's plan for them by not overeating.

Surely Ectomorph (Skinny) body types can be trained and fed to overcome this.

The the onset of acne on those predisposed to skin problems be affected by healthy diet and hydration.

People who are gentically prone to depression can avert/treat this through exercise and healthy lifestyle.

male pattern baldness is heavily associated with hormonal balance and distribution.

OF COURSE diet and lifestyle can affect it.

BINGO!

 

[s.a.f]

I think it can make a difference, but if you're destined to go bald, however strict a diet you keep I believe you will still go bald. It might save you a little time (perhaps a year max?), but that's about it.

See this is what pisses me off people are brought up with these beliefs that we are somehow in control of our own genetics ie "eating fish makes you brainy", "eating carrots makes you see in the dark" or the old classic "eating spinach makes you big and strong".

Therefore when you perpetuate these 'myths' you give society the option to blame us for our geneticly determind m.p.b.

 

[s.a.f]

Surely people who are genetically prone to being overweight can avert their DNA's plan for them by not overeating.

Surely Ectomorph (Skinny) body types can be trained and fed to overcome this.

The the onset of acne on those predisposed to skin problems be affected by healthy diet and hydration.

People who are gentically prone to depression can avert/treat this through exercise and healthy lifestyle.

male pattern baldness is heavily associated with hormonal balance and distribution.

OF COURSE diet and lifestyle can affect it.

No because they are totally separate conditions, you are talking about health and illness related conditions. You cant compare having follicles that are sensitive to DHT to someone eating too much and being overweight levels of bodyfat are easily altered. The one condition applies to everyone on the planet the other is just for those who are born with it. M.P.B is not one of these things its a genetic trait that you are born with! You either have it or you dont.

Here Treeshrew gives us a perfect example of how some genitic traits are different to the ones you described, sure he could easily control his bodyfat levels but his height? No he was BORN TO BE TALL its in his D.N.A not his diet/lifestyle.

i am 6'5" (196cm) to be honest i don't like being this tall, i'd rather be a "normal" height.
but do you think stress/diet/exercise would have an impact on my height?
I don't. and neither do i think it would have an effect on my hair loss.

If what you claim was true then saving our hair would be simple it would be no more difficult than going on a diet. Again spreading this kind of false theory does us no favours in the eyes of society.

 

[s.a.f]

Take a look at the lineups for the MR olympia title these are guys mostly in their 30's who have for about 50% of their lives kept their test/DHT levels unnaturally high, surely they should all be NW7's if the lifestyle theory is true?

[attachment=0:289r6bqk]lineup-sm.jpg[/attachment:289r6bqk]

 

[Hoppi]

I am saying it is a combination of these things

OK Hoppi.

It's certainly possible that lifestyle and diet effect genetics.

There has been no science that has definitely proved it either way.

Hopefully at some point in the future we may all be enlightened to the mysteries of life

well, that too, but also the general wash of DHT and other hormones you give to your hair follicles. It just makes sense to me to give them the easiest time possible in terms of the hormones I am exposing them to, as triggered by my diet among other factors

I'm dumbfounded too. It's been shown that diet and excercise effect the outcome of other androgen mediated diseases such as BPH so I don't see how people can delude themselves into thinking Androgenetic Alopecia is somehow different. If I had to guess, I'd say that it's easier to just convince yourself it makes no difference than it is to restructure your dietary habitats and lifestyle.

BINGO!

I second this Bingo! hehe

Here Treeshrew gives us a perfect example of how some genitic traits are different to the ones you described, sure he could easily control his bodyfat levels but his height? No he was BORN TO BE TALL its in his D.N.A not his diet/lifestyle.

Ready to be proved wrong? hehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHYFOJBU434


You are right that your raw genes are in many ways difficult to change, but genes seem to be able to be turned on and off, and genes affect our hormone production, as does diet. Therefore there are also changes YOU can make to change the chemical (hormone) balances in your blood, and possibly even switch the gene responsible for making follicles susceptible to DHT off... who knows!

Science is incredible, and this stuff is complex but fascinating!

 

[Hoppi]

You're being very vague. What do you mean by diet? A diet of what? If you ate nothing but soy, pomegranate, and pueraria mirifica, I'm sure you would regrow a lot of hair that was loss from male pattern baldness.

haha I was just thinking we should market this as a cure for male pattern baldness, with a little footnote in the small print saying:

Possible Side-Effects: May turn you into a woman.


xD

 

[lanvinman]

No because they are totally separate conditions, you are talking about health and illness related conditions. You cant compare having follicles that are sensitive to DHT to someone eating too much and being overweight levels of bodyfat are easily altered. The one condition applies to everyone on the planet the other is just for those who are born with it. M.P.B is not one of these things its a genetic trait that you are born with! You either have it or you dont.

Here Treeshrew gives us a perfect example of how some genitic traits are different to the ones you described, sure he could easily control his bodyfat levels but his height? No he was BORN TO BE TALL its in his D.N.A not his diet/lifestyle.

I was referring to genetic conditions that although extremely difficult to combat can be tackled. By your logic NO INTERNAL TREATMENT can work because of genetics. Propecia/Avodart etc etc etc. I dispute that and most here would I'm sure.Most people on this forum are aware of the central role of inflammation in hair loss and that inflammatory diseases can be prevented through healthy diet. It is clear to say there is a sequence of activities before the hair actually falls out and its a philosophical debate whether that is the end goal of the process or a bi product of the hormonal/inflammatory/immune system change.
Hormonal distribution and inflammatory response can be manipulated through diet and therefore hairloss can be effected.

 

[baller234]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1880 ... dinalpos=6[/url]

In children who are predicted to have a short adult height, aromatase inhibitors are used in conjunction with HGH or alone to successfully incrase their adult stature.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1963 ... dinalpos=4

Height is not dictated soley by genes, it's dictated by the hormones that you produce and that can be manipulated. Yes there is a genetic height limit, but that is much taller than you actually end up.

So Treeshew's height could have been much less had he produced more estrogen as an adolescent.