Diet, lifestyle, the mind, and hair loss

[LewdBear]

EDIT -- And just to reiterate - I am NOT saying that correcting your lifestyle or diet will fix your male pattern baldness, not anymore, I didn't realize that whole thing about a gene being triggered until let-it-grow told me, and then I looked at what I observed in the world around me and realized it made perfect, perfect sense

For the last time, the only requirement for 'triggering the gene' are adult levels of androgens. You cannot use a 'good diet' or lifestyle to induce the type of drastic androgen deprivation necessary to stop this process. It's not possible. Even if it were, it would be highly undesirable and potentially dangerous.

A lot of pseudoscience types believe that everyone in the western world is unhealthy and eats fast food. They use this belief to try to make ridiculous blanket claims about everyone 'in the West'. It is simply not true. Californian Adventists have been the subject of extensive, large-scale longevity studies. As a group, they are one of the longest lived peoples in the world due to their diet and lifestyle.

Pseudoscience doesn't pay attention to them because they're primarily English-speaking European-descended caucasians, and therefore not nearly as interesting as say, the mystical Himalayans or Okinawans (even though they'll probably soon outlive them).

If there were no bald Californian Adventists in studies as large as 20000 participants, don't you think that would be obvious? If the Adventists can't prevent the 'gene' from triggering with one of the healthiest diets and lifestyles on earth, what makes you think you could have?

 

[Hoppi]

For the last time, the only requirement for 'triggering the gene' are adult levels of androgens. You cannot use a 'good diet' or lifestyle to induce the type of drastic androgen deprivation necessary to stop this process. It's not possible. Even if it were, it would be highly undesirable and potentially dangerous.

But you don't KNOW this, no-one knows this, how can you possibly argue it? There is much more observational evidence to the contrary, at least to my eyes. As for the bit about it reversing it, I haven't said that it would for a long, long time and please now reflect the fact that I'm not saying that anymore.

My observational evidence though comes from people with stress appearing to bald quicker. It comes from people who weight train and overload their bodies with testosterone supplements appearing to bald quicker. It's walking into that shop I was talking about and seeing EVERYONE with male pattern baldness. It's hearing some guy saying he had a vit B12 deficiency and now lo-and-behold he has male pattern baldness.

Surely these things can therefore trigger it, just like age can. Don't you think?


EDIT -- oo and a hundred posts! woot! and sorry if I get confrontational, I don't mean to ._. I just get all sure of an opinion and then... I guess it's much easier to have discussions and things in person that on the net as it's much easier to convey things accurately

Oh well, we'll get there in the end ^_^

 

[legion00]

My observational evidence though comes from people with stress appearing to bald quicker. It comes from people who weight train and overload their bodies with testosterone supplements appearing to bald quicker. It's walking into that shop I was talking about and seeing EVERYONE with male pattern baldness. It's hearing some guy saying he had a vit B12 deficiency and now lo-and-behold he has male pattern baldness.

this is anecdotal evidence. it is scientifically meaningless. i could just as easily show you an equal number of people who live under enourmous stress, or guys who have been juicing for decades, and still have perfect hair.

 

[LewdBear]

But you don't KNOW this, no-one knows this, how can you possibly argue it?

Come on. The body of evidence supporting the androgenetic theory of pattern balding is overwhelming. Androgens are the only thing that are absolutely required for male pattern baldness.

Can we be 100% certain that there isn't some undiscovered retroviral particle infecting the scalp and worsening Androgenetic Alopecia by 0.000000000001%? No. But science is based on positive evidence, not extreme 'what if' scenarios.

In very specific cases where hormone levels are elevated by disease or drugs, male pattern baldness may be hastened. But this does not apply to cases of uncomplicated Androgenetic Alopecia in healthy individuals.

My observational evidence though comes from people with stress appearing to bald quicker. It comes from people who weight train and overload their bodies with testosterone supplements appearing to bald quicker. It's walking into that shop I was talking about and seeing EVERYONE with male pattern baldness.

Yeah, if you go into a hardcore supplement store that's likely to have a higher percentage of people on AAS, you're likely to see more balding. No one is saying that there isn't anything that can worsen balding, as anabolic steroids obviously can.

The problem is that you're mentally homogenizing the negative effects of AAS with weight training. In reality, the steroids are doing virtually all of the damage.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

misterE doesn't even think that DHT cause hair loss

Wrong...I believe that DHT, estradiol, and IGF-1 cause hair loss...not just DHT. All three of those hormones act together to enlarge the sebaceous glands which clogs the follicle, which then causes an autoimmune response (inflammation) which causes the hair to fall. All three of these hormones also enlarge the prostate.

 

[Bryan]

Wrong...I believe that DHT, estradiol, and IGF-1 cause hair loss...not just DHT. All three of those hormones act together to enlarge the sebaceous glands which clogs the follicle...

Estrogen REDUCES the size of sebaceous glands, stupid.

 

[SuprisedGuy]

I doubt this is the right place to post these but I saw the diet and lifestyle in the title and the idea of it having a significant affect on hair loss made me chuckle. The two pictures below are my uncle, he is nearing 50, he's an alcoholic, eats terribly and is overweight.

 

[Hoppi]

It's just not in his genes thats all. Either that or he has yet to reach the age where it starts.

Again Im not denying the role of genetics, I never did.

 

[let-it-grow]

Again Im not denying the role of genetics, I never did.

And yet you claim that you can beat genetics with vitamins...

 

[Hoppi]

Again Im not denying the role of genetics, I never did.

And yet you claim that you can beat genetics with vitamins...

I'm not saying that anymore

I said that a while ago while I was still learning, but now I think the changes of even a complete change actually switching off the gene again is slim (not nil, as let's face it we don't actually KNOW what turns it off... it could be anything!) but still damn slim ._.

 

[let-it-grow]

I'm not saying that anymore

I said that a while ago while I was still learning, but now I think the changes of even a complete change actually switching off the gene again is slim (not nil, as let's face it we don't actually KNOW what turns it off... it could be anything!) but still damn slim ._.

You can't switch off a gene, nothing will switch off a gene. In 2020 or 2030 if the world would still exist then, maybe then science would be able to just switch the male pattern baldness gene.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Estrogen REDUCES the size of sebaceous glands, stupid.

Hi stupid.

Estradiol, when bound to SHBG increases the size of the prostate (because it has the same effects as DHT). When men get old, their prostates enlarge and their hair falls out...despite low androgens...why is this? Because estradiol (when bound to SHBG) has the same effects as DHT.

Now, taking a aromatase inhibitor won't help much, because an aromatase inhibitor only prevents further estradiol production, however...it does nothing at all to displace estradiol away from SHBG, which is the underlying problem. A SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator) will help, because the problem isn't aromatase, the problem is SHBG-bound-estradiol!

 

[Bryan]

Estrogen REDUCES the size of sebaceous glands, stupid.

Hi stupid.

Estradiol, when bound to SHBG increases the size of the prostate (because it has the same effects as DHT). When men get old, their prostates enlarge and their hair falls out...despite low androgens...why is this? Because estradiol (when bound to SHBG) has the same effects as DHT.

Just because something happens in ONE tissue doesn't mean something equivalent to that happens in every other tissue in the body. Stop polluting this forum with your childish and moronic theories.

 

[Hoppi]

Estrogen REDUCES the size of sebaceous glands, stupid.

Hi stupid.

Estradiol, when bound to SHBG increases the size of the prostate (because it has the same effects as DHT). When men get old, their prostates enlarge and their hair falls out...despite low androgens...why is this? Because estradiol (when bound to SHBG) has the same effects as DHT.

Just because something happens in ONE tissue doesn't mean something equivalent to that happens in every other tissue in the body. Stop polluting this forum with your childish and moronic theories.

Come on Bryan he's allowed to have theories and a free thinking mind! I don't mind if his views are different to others and neither should you

Plus, I find a different view and a variety of personalities on here refreshing

I take on board bits of info from what everybody says!

 

[Bryan]

Come on Bryan he's allowed to have theories and a free thinking mind! I don't mind if his views are different to others and neither should you

I don't care if somebody else has different "theories" or "views". Where I draw the line is when somebody keeps spouting garbage that is FACTUALLY INCORRECT. When that happens, I'm not going to pull any punches in my reply to him, and neither should you.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

HEADLINE NEWS: when estradiol binds with SHBG it has the same effects as DHT!

Spread it around!

 

[LewdBear]

HEADLINE NEWS: when estradiol binds with SHBG it has the same effects as DHT!

Pseudohermaphrodites with congenital 5-ar deficiency can have the same increases in both estradiol and SHBG as men on 5-ar inhibitors. They don't go bald.

Now, you might argue that there's some negative cumulative effect on balding from the bound estradiol plus DHT, but there's no direct proof of that. The scalp is not the prostate.

If DHT were not required to bald, we might expect to see some hair loss (even if not severe) among those with 5-ar deficiency. It's fairly obvious that bound estradiol does not have "the same effects as DHT" in the scalp.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Can you explain why old men bald despite having low levels of androgens and high levels of estrogens?

 

[treeshrew]

misterE : 439 posts

bryan : 5746 posts

need I say more?

bryan is a well respected, veteran poster on this forum. i would trust his posts and opinions before i would trust some random guy (misterE).

i really don't understand why we continue to have these nonsensical pseudoscience threads.

while i realize genetic alopecia is still a developing science, i think we've all learned that DHT inhibition (in the form of finasteride - propecia/proscar) is the only current and reliable medication to combat hair loss.

NOT diet, NOT lifestyle.

this is like arguing that lifestyle and diet can prevent unwanted pregnancy. NO. girls take birth control pills (which also effect hormones) because the pills WORK just like finasteride (propecia/proscar).

 

[Bryan]

Can you explain why old men bald despite having low levels of androgens and high levels of estrogens?

I've already explained that to you more than once, but you don't listen to what other people tell you. Until you learn to do that, you will continue to have these simple-minded, child-like theories of what causes balding that have no basis in fact.