Diet, lifestyle, the mind, and hair loss

[LewdBear]

So Treeshew's height could have been much less had he produced more estrogen as an adolescent.

Yeah.. But the amount of estrogen he produced during adolescence would be largely genetic as well.

Comparing human growth to Androgenetic Alopecia doesn't make a lot of sense in the first place. Hormones can influence a lot of processes in the body. The presence of an androgenetic condition does not mean that a person, especially one with normal hormone values, has anything 'hormonally' wrong.

Also, are you aware that chimps and other primates experience BPH?

 

[Hoppi]

To be fair the more you observe around you, the more sense it does make that bad diet/lifestyle/stress triggers male pattern baldness. I am with let-it-grow here when he says it triggers the gene. It just makes sense, I do see a LOT of people who have had bad diets or lazy lifestyles losing hair young

Obviously only if you have the gene, and I still feel sorry for them - losing some or all of your hair is a harsh punishment for a bit of laziness!

Stress also, I mean again we do see it in the world around us a lot. It's a shame, because once male pattern baldness is triggered it's quite unforgiving. The sooner a cure comes along the better I think

 

[s.a.f]

To be fair the more you observe around you, the more sense it does make that bad diet/lifestyle/stress triggers male pattern baldness. I am with let-it-grow here when he says it triggers the gene. It just makes sense, I do see a LOT of people who have had bad diets or lazy lifestyles losing hair young

And for every single one you'll find a guy with a good diet who gets plenty of excercise but is still losing it.

The only thing that triggers m.p.b is nature the same as it triggers puberty. Its a natural condition. there is no 'magic moment' no fork in the road, no on/off switch. For some guys it happens young for some its a middle age thing some guys get it aggressive some dont.
But if you want to delude yourself and waste time and energy trying to find the right diet/lifestyle to fight something you cant change thats up to you.
Or you could just use finasteride.

 

[Hoppi]

To be fair the more you observe around you, the more sense it does make that bad diet/lifestyle/stress triggers male pattern baldness. I am with let-it-grow here when he says it triggers the gene. It just makes sense, I do see a LOT of people who have had bad diets or lazy lifestyles losing hair young

And for every single one you'll find a guy with a good diet who gets plenty of excercise but is still losing it.

The only thing that triggers m.p.b is nature the same as it triggers puberty. Its a natural condition. there is no 'magic moment' no fork in the road, no on/off switch. For some guys it happens young for some its a middle age thing some guys get it aggressive some dont.
But if you want to delude yourself and waste time and energy trying to find the right diet/lifestyle to fight something you cant change thats up to you.
Or you could just use finasteride.

I am not saying that correcting your diet or lifestyle will change it BACK, at least not anymore. I am saying that these things seem to be able to switch it on in the first place. Like for me, it was probably stress. For that guy in the vitamin B12 thread it was vitamin B12. For a lot of people it's diet, maybe depression I would imagine. And of course with some people it's simply age, whether that age be 16, 25 or 60.

All this stuff just feels right as the roots of male pattern baldness, it FITS. I mean, I do blame myself for my hair loss, but I'm not beating myself up about it, I didn't know it was possible.

And sorry but I just have to say as well, why this OBSESSION with Finasteride as the one and only cure?

I really don't get it, but I guess you know, like, it's up to our individual judgement how we put regimens together

 

[LewdBear]

To be fair the more you observe around you, the more sense it does make that bad diet/lifestyle/stress triggers male pattern baldness.

That's called confirmation bias.

the more sense it does make that bad diet/lifestyle/stress triggers male pattern baldness.

That's sort of like saying a bad diet/lifestyle/stress can trigger beard growth in a man. Both beard growth and Androgenetic Alopecia are androgenetic processes and usually become noticeable around the same time.

I am not saying that correcting your diet or lifestyle will change it BACK, at least not anymore. I am saying that these things seem to be able to switch it on in the first place.

You really need to drop the "switch it on" idea, because it's extremely inaccurate. There has been no evidence presented here that diet or lifestyle will prevent male pattern baldness. And to contradict these theories, we know that 1. ) reductions in relevant hormones are small and 2. ) other primates go bald as well.

How do you explain why other primates go bald?

And sorry but I just have to say as well, why this OBSESSION with Finasteride as the one and only cure?

Finasteride isn't a cure. But as a treatment, it's shown a considerable effect (including regrowth) in large-scale clinical trials. It's not like some guy just went on a hairloss board spamming a bunch of liberally (mis)interpreted abstracts trying to prove a theory about Finasteride's effectiveness.

If there were really so much variability in Androgenetic Alopecia outcome through lifestyle factors we might expect to see :

- Examples of gross disparity in male pattern baldness between healthy separated male identical twins (without history of drugs or disease).

- Groups with dissimilar diets, but similar ethnic composition to the broader population, with drastically less male pattern baldness.

- Primates under strict conditions with no Androgenetic Alopecia (or Androgenetic Alopecia only in captivity while wild primates had none).

 

[Hoppi]

It's alright I really don't mind agreeing to disagree, as I know from experience these kind of arguments will just go round and round in circles! lol

At the end of the day no there is no real proof for most of this, it's all just speculation and observation, because even medical science is still not fully sure.

I just found it interesting that earlier I was walking around town and saw hardly any twenty-somethings with male pattern baldness. Then as soon as I went into a shop where... well let's say they would all be less active types, they ALL had it, every single one of them! lol

The only exception was the guy who looked foreign, which I would guess is down to genes or possibly age.

I reckon there's a pattern though, you know? I reckon you could trace it. It IS genetic yes, but it does just seem to have triggers, such as stress, B12 deficiency etc etc, as well as the obvious ones like age (for example my hair was perfect until about 4 months ago or less).

As for apes and stuff going bald, they were probably just genetically disposed to it, pure and simple, it probably hit them mostly at a certain age, just like it does in humans. Don't you think?

 

[moxsom]

At the end of the day no there is no real proof for most of this, it's all just speculation and observation, because even medical science is still not fully sure.

There's tons of scientific data out there. And medical science is much more accurate then yours or MisterE's predictions. If diet, exercise, mind have anything to do with hairloss it is minimal at best.

I agree with the beard analogy, no matter how good your diet and exercise are, if your a man you will still grow facial and pubic hair. Androgen mediated changes in gene expression, get it in your head.

 

[treeshrew]

the guy above me is a jerk. come join you in the gym? ok, whatever you say meathead. by the way, learn to spell "loser". nice bud.


but Hoppi, you ain't gunna win this one brother, let it go!

 

[LewdBear]

I reckon there's a pattern though, you know? I reckon you could trace it. It IS genetic yes, but it does just seem to have triggers, such as stress, B12 deficiency etc etc, as well as the obvious ones like age (for example my hair was perfect until about 4 months ago or less).

As for apes and stuff going bald, they were probably just genetically disposed to it, pure and simple, it probably hit them mostly at a certain age, just like it does in humans. Don't you think?

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Why do you believe it's possible for male pattern baldness to be a "pure and simple" genetic problem for apes, but not for humans?

 

[cleverusername]

the guy above me is a jerk. come join you in the gym? ok, whatever you say meathead. by the way, learn to spell "loser". nice bud.


but Hoppi, you ain't gunna win this one brother, let it go!

Haha yea he got bit riled up didn't he.

As for the diet/lifestyle argument. I do think eating a high fat diet can exacerbate things but eating healthy and exercising will at best marginally slow your hair loss down. The only thing that ever grew my hair back was using minoxidil with nizoral. Finasteride never seemed to do much for me. If you don't use these you WILL continue to lose your hair. I've found that out myself the hard way.

 

[s.a.f]

He still has'nt got it guys, now he's after the perfect supplements to 'save his hair'.

 

[Hoppi]

I reckon there's a pattern though, you know? I reckon you could trace it. It IS genetic yes, but it does just seem to have triggers, such as stress, B12 deficiency etc etc, as well as the obvious ones like age (for example my hair was perfect until about 4 months ago or less).

As for apes and stuff going bald, they were probably just genetically disposed to it, pure and simple, it probably hit them mostly at a certain age, just like it does in humans. Don't you think?

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Why do you believe it's possible for male pattern baldness to be a "pure and simple" genetic problem for apes, but not for humans?

It is for us too. But I just think if I hadn't got so stressed out or battered my body with carbs and sugar, and had done more exercise, this probably wouldn't have happened until I was about 35 (or who knows maybe 65!!).

Whatever, I mean it's happened now so it makes little difference ._.

I just need to make sure I don't flood my follicles too much MORE.

I reckon people who do lots of weight training have a habit of raising their testosterone levels too high, which can cause hair loss if you're genetically disposed to it.

I dunno these are just my theories, like I say it makes little difference because we've all got it now anyway! lol

He still has'nt got it guys, now he's after the perfect supplements to 'save his hair'.

lol well you can keep not listening to me if you want, but you are completely, COMPLETELY missing my points and I just think you must be doing it intentionally at this point

Ok let me just clear another thing up too. I think there are at least three factors affecting your hair follicles once male pattern baldness is initiated. There's the amount of DHT that is flooding them. There's the amount of sebum that is collecting in and around them and hindering their growth. And there is the overall "health" of the follicle. A healthy follicle will last longer than an unhealthy one, in the same way a healthy person is more likely to fight off the flu or any infection. Too much sebum accumulates DHT and probably 5ar making life difficult for the follicle, and probably gets bacteria in it too. It also makes life difficult for hairs trying to fight their way through the scalp. What is wrong therefore with taking finasteride, Dutas, Saw Palmetto, Ket or whateeeever you want to lower your DHT levels systemically or topically (the choice is your own on this, I'm not arguing which is better unless you want to talk SCIENCE and not conjecture), reducing and regulating your sebum by washing your hair regularly and ensuring your body has enough coenzyme A (this seems to be best for balancing sebum) and enriching your follicle with vitamins, nutrients and a good blood supply so it can be strong and more likely to sprout good, thick hair? I don't get the problem. You seem to think just because I'm choosing SP over Finasteride like I am making some huge deviation from your way of thinking, when in fact they both just lower 5ar levels systemically.

the guy above me is a jerk. come join you in the gym? ok, whatever you say meathead. by the way, learn to spell "loser". nice bud.


but Hoppi, you ain't gunna win this one brother, let it go!

Haha yea he got bit riled up didn't he.

As for the diet/lifestyle argument. I do think eating a high fat diet can exacerbate things but eating healthy and exercising will at best marginally slow your hair loss down. The only thing that ever grew my hair back was using minoxidil with nizoral. Finasteride never seemed to do much for me. If you don't use these you WILL continue to lose your hair. I've found that out myself the hard way.

yeah I know, I know, I'm not arguing against that, even though a few people seem to think I still am. Originally I was, but I have learnt a lot in the past week or so as I've only noticed myself losing some hair very recently and it's had to be a quick learning curve.

And seaback there's no need to get all annoyed and defensive at me, I wasn't saying EVERYONE who is losing hair young did anything to cause it. It can also be triggered by age, which was probably the case for many, many people. In fact, it's probably the case for MOST people. Doesn't mean it can't or doesn't have other triggers.

For you, it may well have been age, I don't know, I barely know you. Why do you have to get all personal about one person's broad, theoretical, observational science that has no direction at you whatsoever?

 

[LewdBear]

It is for us too. But I just think if I hadn't got so stressed out or battered my body with carbs and sugar, and had done more exercise, this probably wouldn't have happened until I was about 35 (or who knows maybe 65!!).

I don't understand why you want so badly to blame the victim (in this case, yourself) for male pattern baldness.

So for apes, it's genetic, with very limited environmental influence. But for you, it must have been your lifestyle? Seriously man, stop flagellating yourself.

If it makes you feel better, stump-tailed macaques develop baldness at exactly the same time humans do. Maybe someone should check their sofas for candy and chips?

I reckon people who do lots of weight training have a habit of raising their testosterone levels too high, which can cause hair loss if you're genetically disposed to it.

In most cases, these types of questions are largely academic with no proven outcomes on male pattern baldness. Yes, strength training can result in a small transient increase in testosterone, just as extreme endurance training (which many misinterpret as simple 'cardio') can reduce total testosterone.

The basic assumption that a slight reduction (or increase) in testosterone can significantly influence male pattern baldness, or influence it to any noticeable degree, just isn't proven.

It's important to remember : Men continue to bald into andropause. In terms of medically normal levels of endogenous androgen, concentration (which fluctuates to some degree on its own) doesn't appear to be as important as duration.

Ok let me just clear another thing up too. I think there are at least three factors affecting your hair follicles once male pattern baldness is initiated. There's the amount of DHT that is flooding them.

Just to clear up some ambiguity in this statement - you're aware that androgens initiate male pattern baldness and not the other way around?

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Obesity is genetic. I have the genes for obesity. Does this mean that I will definitely become obese?

 

[let-it-grow]

Obesity is genetic. I have the genes for obesity. Does this mean that I will definitely become obese?

You are very wrong. Obesity is not genetic, slow metabolism is genetic and if you'll eat a lot like someone who has a fast metabolism you will get weight. Follicles sensitivity to DHT is genetic and it means that if you will not keep the DHT level in your scalp lower - you will lose hair.


They should open a new forum called "Theories" and then misterE and Hoppi could discuss your theories there. Someone here may think that what misterE writes is real and while he tries this crap he'll lose more hair and then it would be too late for him to achieve a good result with a DHT blocker, all thanks to misterE.

 

[s.a.f]

I want Hoppi and MisterE to find me the right Diet/lifestyle to grow my c*** as big as Ron Jeremys (I wonder what he eats)?
Also my nose is quite big I wonder what it was that I ate/did that caused this?

 

[Hoppi]

I am now actually finding it quite difficult to CONTAIN my bewilderment as many people CONTINUE to argue against someone called "Hoppi" that ISN'T ME!

What views are you arguing against here? Have you been READING my posts?

It feels like you are twisting my views so they are easier to argue against!

let-it-grow... in particular I'm not sure who you are arguing against because my current view is largely YOUR view (that certain things trigger the male pattern baldness gene, although I then also listened to somebody else (sorry I can't remember who ) who said that it is probably triggered follicle by follicle, and not all over, explaining why some areas of hair go and some don't.

Whatever, I mean largely we're arguing about nothing because the TRIGGERS of male pattern baldness are already mostly irrelevant to all of us... right?


EDIT -- And just to reiterate - I am NOT saying that correcting your lifestyle or diet will fix your male pattern baldness, not anymore, I didn't realize that whole thing about a gene being triggered until let-it-grow told me, and then I looked at what I observed in the world around me and realized it made perfect, perfect sense

I didn't want to make that realization, but it seems like the harsh reality ._.

DOUBLE EDIT -- I'd also like to point out that if misterE thought that diet and lifestyle alone would CURE it, he wouldn't be taking beta-sitosterol and using Nizoral. The quicker you realize that you are misunderstanding us, the quicker we can get back onto constructive conversation, and that would be fantastic

 

[let-it-grow]

Let's see.
First you admitted that male pattern baldness was triggered and can't be fixed and then you said that misterE diet and lifestyle would cure it (it=male pattern baldness). You are saying two different things here.

No body listens to misterE, his posts are ridiculous and he like to sit at home and write bullshit theories.

If taking beta-sitosterol and using Nizoral would cure male pattern baldness do you think that drug companies would spend billions of dollars in finding a cure for hair loss?? NO! They would just listen to misterE and fire all their scientists.

misterE doesn't even think that DHT cause hair loss, he's a bullshitter and you're very naive for listening to him.


I had a big vitamins deficiency and I took vitamins and used Nizoral and things hasn't gone better because it's male pattern baldness that was probably triggered early because of my deficiency. Anyway, I'll have to deal with it now and I won't deny it and lose half my hair while trying voodoo treatments because I'm a realist and not a dreamer.

 

[dpdr]

This topic has taken a different course :shakehead:

I agree in part with the MisterE, I think it a big user, but I believe there are MANY things that cause male pattern baldness and still not know, I BELIEVE that for a person who did not get male pattern baldness but has the genes, diet, nutrition and lifestyle can make it not have male pattern baldness, Now, for a person who already has male pattern baldness, will not be a diet or food, much less a lifestyle that will stop this.

The only things that are able to stop the male pattern baldness is castration, and drugs such as RU58841 and future as the ASC-J9

Perhaps in future years or SOME here will find the major cause of male pattern baldness, but now we know very little

 

[Hoppi]

Let's see.
First you admitted that male pattern baldness was triggered and can't be fixed and then you said that misterE diet and lifestyle would cure it (it=male pattern baldness). You are saying two different things here.

I haven't actually said that I thought diet and lifestyle would cure it for quite a long time, as you made the point about things triggering the gene, and I thought it sounded accurate and so took that on board. I even added an EDIT to the end of the first post and said this. I'm just new to all this so I'm still learning.

No body listens to misterE, his posts are ridiculous and he like to sit at home and write bullshit theories.

If taking beta-sitosterol and using Nizoral would cure male pattern baldness do you think that drug companies would spend billions of dollars in finding a cure for hair loss?? NO! They would just listen to misterE and fire all their scientists.

I am very confused here. misterE's theories aside (which we aren't even discussing atm) - beta-sitosterol is widely speculated if not proven to reduce DHT through 5ar inhibition, and Nizoral is speculated if not proven to reduce scalp 5ar and bind to androgen receptors. It doesn't matter how many times people bleat on about Finasteride, it's still not the only systemic treatment and it never will be.