The Cb (breezula [clascoterone]) Community Thread | Page 62 | HairLossTalk Forums

The Cb (breezula [clascoterone]) Community Thread

Discussion in 'New Research, Studies, and Technologies' started by Screeech, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. petersonKj

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    I can't find the 6 month results anymore but as far as I can remember, the 5 and 2.5% didn't lose much if at all and I think one group gained even. still very mediocre and disappointing results
     
  2. petersonKj

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    i am not a minoxidil responder, my end pattern will be a NW7, I couldn't take finasteride due to sides (peyronies), hair systems seem to be not as great as the sound of it, I have a ridiculously terrible head shape and look heinous bald. I dont know, CB-03-01 was supposed to be the big alternative to all this mess but I dont believe in it anymore
     
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  3. pegasus2

    pegasus2 Senior Member My Regimen

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    They all declined sharply after 6 months. That's statistically significant. They still remained above baseline, but minoxidil remains above baseline for 2+ years, and finasteride for 10 years.
    Breezula phase two data vs baseline.png
     
  4. Dimitri001

    Dimitri001 Established Member My Regimen

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    Yikes, was not aware of this.

    I wonder why. You mentioned androgen receptor upregulation, but seems strange to me that that would happen - that's what ARs do, they have things bind to them. They don't react that way to constant DHT binding (or presumably they don't). But then I don't know squat about this stuff.
     
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  5. petersonKj

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    wow I didn't realize just how bad this product is, an absolute joke.

    https://www.cassiopea.com/2019/04/1...coterone-in-treating-androgenetic-alopecia-3/

    they even did a shady numbers trick, with the 12 month data they published, they compared hair count with placebo hair count(because that was below baseline) thus giving the impression that hair counts actually stable in some groups. but when compared to baseline, consistent with 6 month data, it really shows what a massive failure their product really is. minoxidil actually remains above baseline for more than 5 years in one study I have read, finatsried hair count increases after 24 months still. Breezula will be an utter failure just like anything we have seen thus far. its sad, its pathetic and most and foremost, it is over
     
  6. petersonKj

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    its obviously not Ar up regulation, why wouldn't that happen in finasteride or dutasteride then? after the receptor the mechanism is exactly the same so it would have to happen on finasteride as well
     
  7. GRme11

    GRme11 Established Member My Regimen

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    Have you found something about AR upregulation in healthy cells? Because many studies show AR upregulation deriving from cancer cells. As long as I searched, I couldn't find something mentioning AR upregulation for healthy cells, or maybe it's happening anyway since you start blocking the AR receptor continuously (like you mention above). So I think if you can cycle your treatment with RU, or other anti-androgens, for example, 3/2/2 times per week, then stop for 1-2 weeks and restart. Maybe sounds stupid though with the logic that receptors could upregulate, and let's say they will go into a crisis-shock situation requesting more of the drug?(seems confusing or maybe I do not understand the things properly). Thank you very much @pegasus2
     
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  8. petersonKj

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    I like how they had the balls to actually publish these results and not be so embarrassed by them that they dropped the entire drug
     
  9. pegasus2

    pegasus2 Senior Member My Regimen

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    I don't know. I'm just speculating as to the reason. DHT may upregulate the AR over time, and that's why baldness starts later in life. It may be the epigenetic clock that up regulates it. It may be that some activation of the AR is enough to keep it happy so to speak, while blocking it completely causes it to upregulate. I'm not aware of any conclusive studies that can give us the answer.
     
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  10. GRme11

    GRme11 Established Member My Regimen

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    Thanks for response. Guess it's all about again down to the genetics and a trial-error thing. I think though that the cycling method maybe it's safer for preventing the AR upregulation(if it's possible to happen).I don't know if you agree or disagree with this. Thanks again
     
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  11. pegasus2

    pegasus2 Senior Member My Regimen

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    Cycling may be prudent with AR blockers.
     
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  12. Pigeon

    Pigeon Senior Member My Regimen

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    Theoretically RU should also cause AR up regulation but many have great results and maintain with RU alone for years.
     
  13. pegasus2

    pegasus2 Senior Member My Regimen

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    Yes. People also seem to need increasingly higher doses of RU. That is concerning. RU has a higher affinity for the AR than CB though, so it's better able to compete with DHT
     
  14. GRme11

    GRme11 Established Member My Regimen

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    Exactly, that's what I am thinking and especially if you are messing with something very strong and with a good half-life(and better affinity), for example, CPA.
     
  15. pegasus2

    pegasus2 Senior Member My Regimen

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    Something that degrades the receptor would be better, but then I wonder what happens if you stop using that.
     
  16. GRme11

    GRme11 Established Member My Regimen

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    Yes but the key here that it won't cause maybe it lies in the fact that it is not having such a great affinity to the AR receptor(compared to Bicalutamide,CPA etc). So you end with some results like:
    1)Preventing AR and treatment it's working
    2)Treatment it's not working(non responder/maybe higher dosage?)
    3)Upregulation of AR(but let's say way less possible)

    (Though, since everyone it is different you can only make speculations of what will happen or won't.)

    Thanks
     
    #1236 GRme11, Jun 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  17. GRme11

    GRme11 Established Member My Regimen

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    Probably the shock-crisis situation to the AR, which translates again to upregulation ?
    (Sorry if my question is stupid I haven't search and read for degradation of AR receptor)
     
    #1237 GRme11, Jun 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  18. byebyehair

    byebyehair Experienced Member My Regimen

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    Could you provide the link to the chart you presented?
    https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-2-twelve-months-results-for-breezula.122003/
    In this thread the results are displayed differently, there it looks like some groups increased the tahc after six month. But that is due to people didn t read, that 6 month was compared to baseline and 12 month was compared to vehicle.

    Strange is, that they seemingly made a mistake in the BID7,5 group. In the chart you displayed at 12 month they have 14 hair more then vehicle and at the other information they have 14.3.


    Vehicle decreased in 9 Month 16 hair per cm². Linear extrapolated means they would loose 100 hair per cm² in under 5 years. It is widly discussed that you start seeing balding when you surpase the densitiy of 100 hair per cm². And an everage balding person does not go from first signs ob balding to full blown bald in 5 Years. so that is quit strange. i compared to other studies like this http://sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0190962205022759 where after 1 year the decrease was arround 5% or here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0190962213011717 where after 24 weeks the placebo group lost 1 hair.
     
  19. GRme11

    GRme11 Established Member My Regimen

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    Yes, maybe CB it's losing results because of being weaker from RU, and not from the AR upregulation(just saying). When it comes to the increment of RU dosage, maybe it's either AR upregulation or body has stabilized, and the drug lost effect/kind of resistance(so something more potent is needed or let's say higher doses) which I believe it's possible. Thanks
     
  20. petersonKj

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    they did not make a mistake, one graph compares hair count with baseline, the other compares it with placebo(which also lost hair so it is a more drastic difference)


    before people are starting to really did into the micro biology, has anyone considered that it might just be due to a lack of rigor participation, meaning that after 6 months people just started to be less and less reliable in their daily (or twice daily) application? other than that there is really no explanation, the up regulation theories make zero sense because this has not been shown in animal models and in addition other AAs would have the same effect. CB blocks the AR and it will do so after 6 9 or 12 months. I have zero clue why the results have been so disappointing and Cassiopea doesn't understand it either
     

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