- Reaction score
- 1,253
What's your opinon on Brotzu? I see you haven't included it or posted in that forum recently
New Vpa+wounding Delivery Method From Ky Choi
- Thread starter kingjohn
- Start date
My opinion remains that at best, if the whole liposomal delivery system and the ingredients contained within truly are as effective as is claimed, then it could be a better option to minoxidil and finasteride.
That's the best I'd expect from it, though.
"Five years regrowth" and sh*t is a very lofty claim and I couldn't seem to find anything that really demonstrated that potential. Reading up about the S-equol or whatever and the other stuff that was in it (been so long I don't remember) I'm not convinced it will be able to do that.
- Reaction score
- 0
yeah I never got this. do these companies actually hope they ll get something to work through sheer luck or are they knowingly wasting years on shitty concepts instead of just wrapping it up in time?
I guess pretending to do research and development pays as well as actually doing it nowadays
- Reaction score
- 0
btw I think this ky choi guy will f*****g deliver. swiftly dropping huge discoveries one after another with no pompous boasting and manufacturing hundreds of pages of "annual reports" on absolutely nothing, like those clueless private companies.
cant wait for august.
cant wait for august.
- Reaction score
- 0
lol, follica and speed in the same sentence. we ll colonize the entire milky way and these guys will still be referring to those couple of studies from the 1950s
I guess I’m confused about the excitement with this treatment...... haven’t people been using VPA for sometime without results? Is it that this Doctor has discovered a different way of delivering it? Or have folks been getting results with VPA+wounding?
Ignorance.
They are the first thing to hit phase III since finasteride more than 20 years ago and will be on the market within the next couple years. People make it sound like it has just been ages they've been working on this, but in comparison to plenty of things in the medical world, 12 years or so really is pretty short.
They also cite studies as recently as this decade, so I'm not sure what you're on about. Probably "BBQ Man" but why wouldn't they cite that since it was pretty much the first case that showed wounding had potential. At the time, they had no idea how such a thing could be turned into a treatment since it involved burns.
There's plenty of stuff from the 50s one could cite that didn't work though. Again, there are only a few viable methods that have been discovered, and they should continue to be pursued.
- Reaction score
- 0
just a hyperbole. they stick to the "it is proven to work" argument yet have to throw mumbo jumbo excuses whenever their expected trial start date approaches. 2 years from now people will still have these same discussions about them and try to convince themselves that "they are on track". and then they'll probably be deemed obsolete by someone like Choi.
- Reaction score
- 186
Ok, so I've just finished reading the study, and it's really got my mind racing...
Firstly, Dissolvable Microneedles (DMN). These things seem like a dream delivery method for Androgenetic Alopecia. As far as I can tell we can put whatever we like in these things (RU, ODM-201... PTD-DBM?) and they can give a sustained (if wanted) release, deliver virtually all of their payload (compared to 20% in this study for topical) and they're a motherfucking wounding method to boot!! Forget worrying about your daltons and ethanol/DMSO ratios. I know they're not exactly easily accessible, but the potential is huge!
Secondly, VPA. It very interesting to see how potent VPA is at activating the Wnt pathway when it's actually delivered well. I suspect dermarolling would be a decent halfway house between just a straight topical and VPA-DMN though.
Thirdly, Micro-Wounding. Due to the DMN control (just the microneedles, no VPA) this was also a straight up wounding study. And a good one, we've got great bunch of data here showing what the wounding actually did, what it upregulated, and in a lot of cases it pretty much matched topical VPA alone. We also have a depth 0.6mm, I'm not sure how that translates to human skin, though in the diagram it looks as though they only just passed the epidermis.
What's really got me thinking though is this study seems to be quite blatantly to be aimed at application to Androgenetic Alopecia. This is almost like a proof of concept study, as opposed to general research at organ regeneration like a lot of hair follicle studies. They even go on to propose a synergistic effect of VPA and PRP in DMN. Of course I'm really wondering if this has been combined with PTD-DBM, and if they've tried in on a human...
Firstly, Dissolvable Microneedles (DMN). These things seem like a dream delivery method for Androgenetic Alopecia. As far as I can tell we can put whatever we like in these things (RU, ODM-201... PTD-DBM?) and they can give a sustained (if wanted) release, deliver virtually all of their payload (compared to 20% in this study for topical) and they're a motherfucking wounding method to boot!! Forget worrying about your daltons and ethanol/DMSO ratios. I know they're not exactly easily accessible, but the potential is huge!
Secondly, VPA. It very interesting to see how potent VPA is at activating the Wnt pathway when it's actually delivered well. I suspect dermarolling would be a decent halfway house between just a straight topical and VPA-DMN though.
Thirdly, Micro-Wounding. Due to the DMN control (just the microneedles, no VPA) this was also a straight up wounding study. And a good one, we've got great bunch of data here showing what the wounding actually did, what it upregulated, and in a lot of cases it pretty much matched topical VPA alone. We also have a depth 0.6mm, I'm not sure how that translates to human skin, though in the diagram it looks as though they only just passed the epidermis.
What's really got me thinking though is this study seems to be quite blatantly to be aimed at application to Androgenetic Alopecia. This is almost like a proof of concept study, as opposed to general research at organ regeneration like a lot of hair follicle studies. They even go on to propose a synergistic effect of VPA and PRP in DMN. Of course I'm really wondering if this has been combined with PTD-DBM, and if they've tried in on a human...
The only thing is, it's highly unlikely the bulk population will be using the DMN methods. These Microneedles have to be fabricated with special equipment, and the drugs are dissolved in them during the time of fabrication. So not only would people not be able to add their own drugs to them, but the cost of manufacturing them would also be prohibitively expensive. Plus, using them on the scalp would require a completely shaved head for proper placement and adhesion. It could perhaps be a method used by a doctor, but they'd make you shave your head. The more likely scenario is that people will order the individual components online with a dermastamp/roller to do their own treatment, which would cost 10-20x less than a doctor visit.
Using actual microneedles / dermastamp/roller would be infinitely superior. You can create these wounds through any existing hair, especially with a dermastamp. From there, you just use a dropper and drip your dissolved compound over the area, and it would fall into the wounds and get spread around.
The ratios shouldn't be difficult to understand. If you understand how much of your compound is dissolved, it's easy to know how much liquid should be applied.
- Reaction score
- 186
Fair point. But I guess I've got the idea that if your male pattern baldness is anything around NW3 you're already shaving your head, and if not you'd be willing to for a period. Not to mention if you're trying to get temple regrowth this wouldn't be an issue either.
I know the fabrication process is something that would need to be done professionally, but it could be useful to make available topicals that otherwise wouldn't be due to potential contamination, such as any of the latest generation of anti-androgens.
I know the fabrication process is something that would need to be done professionally, but it could be useful to make available topicals that otherwise wouldn't be due to potential contamination, such as any of the latest generation of anti-androgens.
? f***
- Reaction score
- 316
LiCl which is pretty much the same as VPA. Swiss told me it has some addicitional benefits, but I personally didnt find anything. I think VPA has at best a bit better half life and affects more gene expression according to a study.
Both are in the end gsk3 inhibitors, are prescribed for bipolar disorder and orally both lead to hair loss by hyperthyroidism.
Other things to apply: PGE2, Castor Oil and/or fgf-9 growthfactor cocktail (injection is better with like a mesogun / you find fgf-9 in cellcurin - sgf57).
yep wounding and fgf9 any tried fgf9 yet ?https://www.researchgate.net/public...h_factor_9_in_patients_with_pattern_hair_loss
Sodium valproate is salt form of Valproic Acid. When Sod Valproate is dissolved in water (or other solvents) it becomes valproic acid. Sod Valproate is the dry form of V.P.A.
the smoking baby
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 57
To get an 8,3% solution, do you dissolve 8.3 grams into a 1000 ml water or 100 ml water?
Huh? Sorry but that's not accurate. Sodium Valproate is still Sodium Valproate when dissolved in water. The only way to get Valproic Acid out of Sodium Valproate is to acidify it, neutralizing the Sodium ion, such as with stronger acid like Acetic Acid or Hydrochloric Acid (like in the stomach).
When both taken Orally there's isn't any difference in their intended effects because it ultimately ends up in the acid form. Used topically, the acid conversion never takes place.
- Reaction score
- 3,655
the smoking baby
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 57
Thanks.