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I Am Actually Regrowing My Hair + Hairline Without Min Or finasteride (mechanical Stimulation)

Discussion in 'Success Stories' started by MyThinningConfidence, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Thanks for your comment, I've always wondered if the scalp conditions are treated if minoxidil will retain the hairs that are grown with it. Based on everyone that I've ever seen drop minoxidil after regrowing hair on the scalp yet continue other treatments it doesn't seem like it's the case, it always ends extremely negatively for them and a lot of them report they never get back to their original density they had with regrowth although close. Based on people that have grown beards on minoxidil it does seem that some people have reportedly kept their gains although the majority of people see they lose the majority of their gains. I have a few people in mind from the past when I looked into this which was an Asian who lost the majority of his regrowth but kept a fluffy patchy beard and a FTM girl who lost basically all his/her gains.

    Re looking into it now here is a comment from someone more knowledgeable in the scene "I've been a moderator of a brazilian minoxidil beard group with TENS OF THOUSANDS of journeys, and from my own experience, and from what I've seen there, and also on the forum jefffsbeardboard [there was a topic from people from the early 2000 until some years ago] , minoxidil works permanently only when you have the genetics to sustain a beard. It makes your beard appear earlier then it would naturally do". Based on this information it would appear those that keep their gains would have just grown a beard anyways but this just speeds it up. I think that this would mean it'd work particularly well in younger individuals wanting to kickstart their beard growth

    I think if you do take care of the scalp issues such as calcification/fibrosis it does hold some potential for more permanent gains but I think the realistic expectation for this would be to lose a good amount of your minoxidil gains and perhaps keep a few upon stopping. There isn't really a lot of data on this so it's hard to say how permanent things are, based on what I've seen in other people though I personally don't want to be the one to attempt starting/stopping minoxidil. The very first reason I didn't want to start minoxidil was to avoid the initial shed so I think the worst case is that it will slowdown me actually growing out my hair.

    Having a look at some of the beard growth from minoxidil is actually sort of impressive, it also fills in relatively quickly for some people too. It almost tempts me to start using it on my scalp but I don't think I could commit using it for life, I'm far too lazy to do it consistently and it'd end with depressing shedding. Plus if it actually regrew my temples and it turned out they were indeed dependent on minoxidil it'd put my in an odd situation of wanting/not wanting to use it. Based on studies though I can expect a good increase to my regrowth with the addition of it.
    Regrowth 24weeks:
    Minoxidil only 18.8/cm2
    Microneedling 23.4/cm2
    Microneedling + Min 38.3/cm2

    I think I'd rather incorporate something like dutasteride for increased regrowth but based on people like Bridgeburn with extreme regimes he even still used minoxidil so it could be possible I'm being unrealistic and stubborn. I am actually regrowing my hairline though, it's just a very slow process and it's literally taking many months, I am happy with my regrowth so far but I'd like to step things up to major regrowth with almost transplant level improvements to the hairline.
     
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  2. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Part way into my regime (August 11th) versus now, there is a decent improvement to my hairline, I literally had to take like 50 pictures to try and get the angle right and it's still off but I hope you can see the progress. It's nothing major but my hairline has moved about 1-2cm into the slick bald now. You can also see some flaking skin which is from the microneedling, it just looks like a sunburn, the only reason it's visible is that I haven't had a shower in like 3-4 days, normally it just washes off after a few showers and you can't even see it. I also added an extra two images from the last couple of days
     

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  3. Capone

    Capone Senior Member

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    Do you think your skull has changed shape at all? Any thoughts on the expansion theory?
     
  4. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Hard to say without sufficient measures to tell, my scalp does feel softer and overall more flexible though but that's probably all I can say on it. Skull expansion theory is believable and still fits under the main hypothesis I believe as one component of balding.
     
  5. HelixO

    HelixO New Member My Regimen

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    For microneedling on the scalp to work, the wounds need to go deep enough to sufficiently damage the collagen(fibrosis), so that the body can replace it with healthier tissue. The scalp is a lot thicker than the facial skin, and even with Dermatology, to resurface facial scars with microneedling, you need to go DEEP. With the scalp, you need to go even deeper. Frankly speaking I genuinely don't believe many people who needle their scalps go deep enough. It sounds like you do, but I've seen people try to get away with 0.75mm dermarollers, over top of hair, and it's mind boggling to me how they think that will be effective. I'm sure shallower wounds can also stimulate growth via bloodflow, but I don't think the "true healing" occurs unless the wounds are deep enough to break up that fibrotic (excessive collagen) tissue.

    It is understood how balding happens. Balding areas of the scalp have up to 4x as many collagen fibers (fibrosis), and the effect of this is the restriction of bloodflow, likewise DHT also acts as a vasoconstrictor (anti inflammatory action?) and likely causes the collagen to build up. When bloodflow becomes restricted so much, the hair follicles essentially shut down. When balding people stop using minoxidil, they really only lose their hairs they grew with it (in the regions of their scalp with lots of fibrosis), as well as the areas which would have build up fibrosis during that time period. They don't tend to lose the hair in other regions where they weren't aggressively balding.

    Minoxidil doesn't stop the build up of fibrosis, but DHT-blockers do. There are a number of people on reddit /r/tressless who reported stopping Minoxidil while on finasteride, and they stated they lost all their minoxidil hair, but they kept their finasteride hair. This indicates that the hair simply falls out in the regions the scalp cannot support it.


    That beard thread you're talking about, the one that was 500-700 pages or so, I had spend close to 2 weeks reading through the entire thing, prior to doing it myself. Looking at the results of literally hundreds of people. Pretty much every single complaint of beard growth loss was from people who didn't continue use for long enough, and people on the thread pointed this out. There are warnings repeatedly about this, that if people do not keep up use long enough for the hairs to reach terminal maturity, they WILL lose their gains. This is the general consensus of Minoxidils actions on the beard - it stimulates vellus/dormant hairs for long enough until they reach terminal maturity - if minoxidil is ceased prior to that, you will lose those hairs upon stopping.

    It is typically recommended people go for at least 9-12 months or more, to ensure their hairs are able to reach full maturity, though some people get away with less time. As far as I remember, the one thing people who complained of losses had in common was that they'd often quit after 3-4 months or so after they see growth they are happy with, which is not generally enough time to keep gains for most people, especially in virgin beard areas (missing connector regions usually, etc)

    However this whole vellus ->terminal hair thing isn't that relavant to scalp theory, because our main issue here is Fibrosis/DHT.


    I understand your concerns. I'd like to clarify that most of what I was talking about was using Minoxidil (low %) to rapidly mature your blonde vellus hairs that you have grown through needling. It looks like your progress is coming along quickly anyhow, so if you're okay with the rate you're going at, then just keep that up. I was just saying if I was in your shoes, I'd personally opt to throw in Minoxidil just for the sake of speeding up growth, while keeping up my needling/finasteride efforts.
     
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  6. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    I have definitely been trying to needle deeper than most people here since I have noticed the deeper and more intensive sessions yielded superior results for me personally. It's hard to say what depth I've actually needled to because I doubt most of the tools I'm using penetrate full depth. I've been using the dermapen at 2.5mm but I highly doubt it's actually penetrating that deep considering it was even struggling to needle paper consistently. I think once the Derminator 2 arrives which will be in late March I'll actually be able to needle at a consistent 2.5mm. I'm even under the assumption that 3mm+ may actually be optimal if used correctly. But I'm at least expecting an increase in regrowth when the Derminator actually arrives.

    That is an interesting thought with low % minoxidil though, it could be possible it's just enough to stimulate the follicle without it becoming entirely dependent on it. Looking back to min for beard growth it was reportedly only kept in those who were going to grow a beard anyways and simply sped things along. I'm definitely regrowing my temples currently albeit slowly although it could be possible that short usage of low percentage minoxidil could speed things up along providing my scalp conditions are actually suitable. I know Rosemary oil was found to be roughly on par with 2% minoxidil so that's one natural alternative but it doesn't have a lot of studies and I don't see a good reason to use it over min in the case that I do.

    It does seem reasonable and it's something to consider, I think before adding any topical I should wait to test the Derminator 2 out. I just wish it didn't ship from literally the opposite side of the world.

    I had actually completely forgotten one person when I said I hadn't seen anyone retain their gains upon stopping minoxidil since there is one guy in particular and I'm unsure if you know who he is but it's 2young2retire. He went pretty extreme with his microneedling but his results are beyond amazing. There is a bit of blood so be warned but it's worse than it looks since it's mixed with betadine which is an antiseptic. https://imgur.com/a/g7QTqds
     

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  7. Bill_Russo

    Bill_Russo Experienced Member My Regimen

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    While it's not documented, there's also Kitedude, who used Minoxidil for 6 months and then dropped it without losing gains. There were pictures but he took them down. I saw them and his hair looks way better now than it did 12 years ago. He started to notice thinning on his hairline after he switched to light rolling.
    His story:
    I find it interesting.
    Also, I think it might be true that deeper = better. The new Follica patent shows a device with a max depth of 5 mm. Goddamn.
     
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  8. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    That's quite interesting, I imagine the only reason he saw his temples thinning again was because he's not on finasteride. I'm under the assumption if you regrow with microneedling you should be able to maintain the majority of your regrowth even if you stop microneedling.

    I'd be highly interested in seeing how that device goes though. There are actually tons of wounding studies in 2018 that I've found but they're all locked behind a paywall so I can't view them.
     
  9. langthaar31

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    Hi!
    Could you put up the link to the studies you are reffering to? I could be able to unlock them using the school library, i have done this a lot when i have found studies that are locked.
     
  10. Pixie

    Pixie Established Member My Regimen

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    Yo, @MyThinningConfidence

    I've been making sure to derma roll deep these days, and NOW I felt/heard that "crackling" break-up of tissue for sure.

    I wasn't even sure I was actually hearing it before with massages, but with rolling the sound/feeling was very similar but MUCH more intense. Such a gross feeling!
     
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  11. I could hair less

    I could hair less Established Member My Regimen

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    hey what did you use for Zinc Pyrithione ??
     
  12. J0ker

    J0ker Established Member My Regimen

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    I'm sorta sad you called that derma stamp garbage. I've used it for almost 3 months and I don't see anything wrong with it. What didn't you like about it? I've never used a roller/pen but maybe I should try just to compare.
     
  13. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    I'd need to find them again, I remember I had 7 that could have been of particular interest but I couldn't access any of them.

    Here is 2 though from different sources, if you can access them I'll see if I can find the rest.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965206X17301328?via=ihub

    the second one isn't wounding in particular but it deals with chronic tension
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/dth.12785
     
  14. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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  15. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    There were too many needles to correctly penetrate full depth, it was also more painful for this reason although I do find stamping to be more bearable in ways. To actually get it to penetrate deeper you need to stamp down quite hard on the head, it's likely not a massive issue but it could cause some light trauma to the head. I don't think it's particularly good to be hitting your head with a stick of needles forcefully. If you slowly push down it will just make it more painful and harder to penetrate and the overall shape of your head makes it even more difficult since the stamp is laid out like a flat square and your head is curved. The process is also slower than a roller. I used to recommend the stamp over the roller due to the potential for micro tearing but now after using all 3, stamp, roller, pen. I don't think micro tearing is a massive issue for most people, especially on the scalp and I'd probably have to recommend getting a roller over a stamp.
     
  16. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    27th of Jan, hairline is still coming along. I recently found this study though and I found something interesting, in the wounding study they are actually using retinoic acid in one of the groups which is actually bit of a secret ingredient I've been using if you read the my posts a couple pages back. I don't apply it every day but it is something that I have been occasionally applying to my temples since late December, I actually did find a bunch of studies on it that showed promising potential although I'd have to rejoin the group I posted them in to find the links. This study won't be completed until 2025 but I find it interesting they are using retinoic acid, it could have some synergistic effects with wounding which could be giving me a slight boost to my regrowth. I know back in the day retinol was used in conjunction with minoxidil to increase the effectiveness.

    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03491267
     

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  17. J0ker

    J0ker Established Member My Regimen

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    Interesting. Maybe it is a bit difficult to go full depth but I've imagined that's the case with everything 1.5mm+. Never thought about the fact that this stamp would hurt more than others, but it does make sense given that there's 140 needles going in at once on a small area. I see it as an advantage and I think I get good and even coverage. A session takes me 30+ minutes. I don't "hit" it on the head either, lol, not even close, just press it down firmly. It does hurt and I get blood dots.

    Thanks though I think I'll buy a roller just to try and a pen eventually.

    Also we have really similar hair/hands lol. I l thought for a second that picture you posted was mine. Yeah the background sorta looks the same too. Weird.
     

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  18. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Derminator 2 just arrived, super excited to start using it. It didn't even take 2 months like they said either, order was placed on the 15th and payment cleared on the 19th so it only took 11 days to ship from EU to Australia.The actual device is actually much larger in person and seems very well built and quality. They actually provide you with ear plugs to protect your ears against the noise so that's sort of terrifying, I don't know how I'm going to use it in the bathroom without anyone knowing.
     
  19. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Unfortunately it seems that my device is not functioning correctly. When the Derminator 2 first arrived I noticed the magnet was actually out of the device, I thought this was normal until I read the manual and figured it was no big deal and it was likely near a large steel object during shipping so I just put the magnet back in. When I actually tried to needle though I noticed that the needles weren't coming very far out of the cartridge. When I tried needling my scalp there was very little pain and blood despite stepping the depth up to 2.5mm. I've attached a picture of the amount of blood after a few passes using 2.5mm, I don't typically bleed a lot but that amount of blood and pain seems far too low. The second issue is after I microneedle the device seems to stop and comes up with the error message "magnet stuck or missing". This seems to happen more quickly when the depth is set deeper but happens regardless. I've tried taking the magnet out and reinserting it 4 times now but with no result. I'm really hoping this issue can be fixed easily at home as I don't want to send it back and wait as I'm wanting results now.
     

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  20. Tots7

    Tots7 New Member My Regimen

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    Was it very loud when you used it compared to the other dermapen? Hopefully they’ll be able to resolve it quickly since they also sent it descently fast.
     

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