I Am Actually Regrowing My Hair + Hairline Without Min Or finasteride (mechanical Stimulation) | Page 13 | HairLossTalk Forums

I Am Actually Regrowing My Hair + Hairline Without Min Or finasteride (mechanical Stimulation)

Discussion in 'Success Stories' started by MyThinningConfidence, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    That study is a really odd one being taurine and finasteride being tested on a worm of all things. The major issue in my case is this is directed at stress induced alopecia when my alopecia is clearly androgenic alopecia which is evident from my heavy temple recession and crown thinning. The title of the thread is also misleading as taurine isn't more effective than finasteride, actually finasteride was better at reducing stress in the worms. Rather it helped the worms recover from stress more effectively.

    The basic science proposed appears to be this - "When you’re stressed, the capillaries in your body, and especially your scalp, shrink, leading to your hair follicles being denied the amount of blood they need to nourish them properly."

    I could see this being of benefit to particular people but in my case I think the effects would be minimal unless there is more to it.

    Some of the comments of people on that forum claiming regrowth are also not entirely convincing with all of them being verbal, there was even one guy who claimed he doubled his volume with taurine over night which is completely ridiculous.
    "I read a comment in a Danny Roody video on YouTube when someone said that high dose taurine is good for fibrose on the scalp, so since I have taurine capsules on my home, I tried 5g at once at bed time. Had insomnia this night, but at wake up, at looking in the mirror, my hair doubled in volume, was an amazing thing.

    My hair is Norwood II scale, and I am seeing hair regrowth on the recessed area."

    I'd feel more reassured with some more convincing anecdotes. I'm still open to the idea but I think it's unwise to take a random supplement without a strong basis for it.

    As for Krill Oil it contains astaxanthin which is a pretty powerful DHT blocker supposedly.
     
  2. Arrade

    Arrade Senior Member My Regimen

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    lol well yeah some of those posts are bullshit.
    I'm pretty sure you could find a study that taurine helps with scar tissue in humans, for me it was reversing fibrosis of the scalp or blood vessels.
    3 grams a day is safe so it's not like taking it would hurt you, you could take 1gram a day for 100 days for like 6 bucks

    I'm not a fan of blocking DHT. DHT causes the fibrosis but has other necessary functions; it's the stress causing inflammation and then DHT causing collagen bundles in the scalp and blood vessels.
     
  3. Arrade

    Arrade Senior Member My Regimen

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  4. Arrade

    Arrade Senior Member My Regimen

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    I don't gain anything from trying to convince you LOL
    I'm just pointing out something I think would
     
  5. Arrade

    Arrade Senior Member My Regimen

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    I mean you're litreally decreasing testoerone and DHT in the body, that's not ideal...
    In fact I plan on maximizing those after I regrow my hair
     
  6. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Under the model I believe DHT is used as an inflammatory response in relation to chronic scalp tension, this causes fibrosis to build up within the scalp over time and because it's chronic this response never stops and it lead to even more fibrosis which slowly kicks off the miniaturization process as the hair follicles slowly become deprived of nutrient and blood supply as the the fibrosis worsens limiting bloodflow. You should be able to actually physically feel the fibrosis too, if you ever pinch someone's scalp who's completely bald you'll probably notice their scalp is quite thick.

    I think the key to actually regrowing lost hair is ultimately bloodflow to the actual follicle, the best way to achieve this in my opinion is the induction of angiogenesis and the reversal of fibrosis. In the case of angiogenesis, the idea is that new blood vessels form to actually supply the follicle. Mechanical stimulation and microneedling appear to achieve this. That's one of quite a few reasons I don't particularly like minoxidil and don't use it. The follicle becomes reliant on minoxidil and you can never stop it without losing your gains, I don't think this is ideal. In the case of my regrowth I'm under the assumption my results are semi-permanent due to the formation of new blood vessels to support the follicle. As long as I continue to stop the inflammatory response from happening my gains should be theoretically permanent unless that inflammatory response proceeds to cause miniaturization via fibrosis.

    I personally think DHT is definitely genetic and there is evidence towards that, people with 5AR deficiencies never go bald and risk is usually determined by parents. I think there is 3 things that sets it off, one being people with the gene that uses 5AR as an inflammatory response, secondly chronic scalp tension which the Von Mises model found to fit the Norwood pattern almost perfectly. Thirdly a hormonal imbalance that doesn't usually present itself until later in one's life but can happen beforehand.

    It's probably not ideal to block DHT and there appear to be other ways around it but it is likely the easiest and most studied way to prevent hairloss and even partially reverse it. I'm under the assumption that regrowth on finasteride is actually more of an accident creating a hormonal imbalance as Inhibiting DHT synthesis may alter the estrogen to androgen ratio by shifting metabolism of testosterone to estradiol. This would explain why some people only see a slowdown of hairloss and others have major regrowth.
     
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  7. Ayr9

    Ayr9 Established Member My Regimen

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    Thank you for answering my question..
    In these months of regrowth,did you noticed a single hair that has grown as fresh,pigmented and thick like your original hairs from the roots???(I mean when the hair was first sprouted on your scalp and not after shedding and regrowing)
     
  8. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    As in it just grows from terminal straight from the root? If so yes and that's what I meant with it sheds and gets thicker and thicker, I'm assuming the terminal hairs shed beforehand in the case it comes out directly as terminal.
     
  9. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    What deficiency, in 1,2 or 3 isoenzyme? or total? Please a link
     
  10. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    I'm assuming total because it isn't stated, the full study might have more information but it's locked behind a paywall. There are a few more studies I just found on it but none of them state anything beyond a simple 5AR deficiency. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2265.1991.tb03769.x
     
  11. Tom4362

    Tom4362 Established Member My Regimen

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    @MyThinningConfidence Do you think that you will be able to get to nw1 with your current regimen (microneedling and finasteride only)?
     
    #251 Tom4362, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  12. Ayr9

    Ayr9 Established Member My Regimen

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    Yes I am asking same..Do you get new regrowth as thick as your original ones from the roots or it go through several sheds to go like your original ones???
     
  13. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Ohh I get what you mean, they vary but typically they start out as small pigmented hairs and they just slowly get thicker over a period of months, I don't think it makes sense for full grown terminal hairs to start forming in the case of my treatment.
     
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  14. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Definitely not NW1, I was looking at some old pictures of myself at 12 and it seemed I went from a NW1.5 to a NW3 by 14 then to a NW4.5 by 20. I seriously don't know if I can actually regrow 9-10 years of hairloss, you can literally see my hairline getting worse over the years by where I part my hairline. I seriously don't know how I was able to deny I was receding all the way up until I was 20. I've regrown about 1-2cm into the slick bald now and my hairline is seriously thicker but I'm unsure how capable I'll be of pushing my hairline further into the slick bald. I think at best I will cap out at about a NW2.5 and anything beyond that will just be unexpected and amazing results. I'm definitely regrowing my hairline but it is a slow process so I'm unsure how far I'll get, it could be possible I'll need to add something else to my regime. I think ideally the standard person would just add minoxidil but I don't want to have to apply a topical to my scalp twice every day for the rest of my life.

    I think only a matter of time will tell I'll need to evaluate where I am in 3 months time, if I'm not happy with my hairline at that stage I think I will step up to dutasteride and possibly consider estradiol. Currently right now I'm looking at getting Vitamin D supplements and I'm currently using Vitamin A in the form of a retinol which has supposedly been shown to stimulate the follicle from vellus to terminal. It actually used to be used quite a bit to enhance the effects of minoxidil. The only downside is that it increases sensitivity to the sun making natural Vitamin D more bothersome to get and the possibility of a Vitamin A overdose which could in turn lead to shedding and hair falling out. I'm actually using the Retinol for my skin but I just rub what's left into my temples in the case it does something.
     
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  15. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Hi, in the paper you cited, "The data indicate a phenotypic and biochemical profile similar to patients studied in the Dominican Republic". In this case they talk about pseudohermaphrodites affecting only one of the three 5AR's. IMHO total insensitivity to androgens is not compatible with human life.
     
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  16. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    I didn't mean total as in relation to all androgens, there are more androgens than just DHT, I just meant Type 1, 2 and 3 of 5a Reductase as an assumption due to it not being explicitly stated. Based on this article they appear to have a deficiency in both 5AR-1 and 5AR-2 although only the type II isozyme is expressed in gonads, and predictably 5AR-2 has been shown responsible for the 5α-reductase deficiency syndrome.

    It actually turns out those people in the Dominican Republic the Guevedoces were actually how finasteride came about. "This observation, made in 1974, was picked up by Roy Vagelos, head of research at the multinational pharmaceutical giant, Merck. He thought this was extremely interesting and set in progress research which led to the development of what has become a best-selling drug, finasteride, which blocks the action of 5-alpha-reductase, mimicking the lack of dihydro-testosterone seen in the Guevedoces."

    It's not particularly useful since we're just retreading water and inhibiting DHT doesn't actually regrow hair in the majority of individuals. It's a similar story with castrates as men who are castrated before puberty never go bald later in life and retain a juvenile hairline although doesn't work later in life and will only halt hairloss and not regrow hair beyond just some slight thickening of existing hair. Regrowth in finasteride could possibly be due to an accidental hormonal imbalance that occurs in some people which made me think taking estradiol might be the next step as opposed to jumping to dutasteride and hoping for something positive in terms of hair.
     
  17. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    finas block mainly 5-alpha-reductase type 2, no the 1 and 3 type.
     
  18. MyThinningConfidence

    MyThinningConfidence Established Member My Regimen

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    Yeah and Dutasteride further blocks 5AR-2 and blocks 5AR-1, I don't see the point you're trying to make.
     
  19. HelixO

    HelixO New Member My Regimen

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    Hey I saw your comment about why you didn't want to use minoxidil, based on the idea that the hair follicles become dependent on it. I just wanted to explain where this notion came from and why it is false. People often say Minoxidil hairs fall out when you stop, but this is only half of the truth. As you pointed out, minoxidil helps with bloodflow, but if the local scalp conditions (fibrosis, etc) are not taken care of, then the hairs will just fall out as their blood supply becomes choke and cannot be sustained without Minoxidil.

    If you've ever been on the Minoxidil Beard forums, people frequently use Minoxidil to mature white micro vellus hairs in their beard to become full dark hairs, to fill in their patchy beards, and when they stop Minoxidil, those hairs never fall out. This is because that skin is able to sustain the hairs without the minoxidil. I can speak from experience here because at 22 years old, my beard had not changed at all from since when I was 16. When I did 2 cycles of Minoxidil on it, 4 months each cycle, my beard filled significantly. 3 years later, I still have all that growth, and not only that, the minoxidil thickened up other areas of my beard and made the hairs thicker in general, and so far, this has not reversed at all since stopping. The areas of my beard that minoxidil filled in are still actively growing 3 years later.

    So I strongly stand by the notion that there is nothing about Minoxidil that inherently makes hairs become dependent on it. It's just that when Minoxidil grows hairs in areas of the scalp with significant fibrosis/calcification or whatever, those hairs cannot be sustained with Minoxidil if the local fibrosis issue is not taken care of.

    We have transparent vellus hairs all over our body and minoxidil can mature these into full-dark hairs, and these hairs do not fall out or become small again! Considering that you have a lot of vellus hairs on your hairline regrown from microneedling, I strongly believe that a short-run of Minoxidil would help accelerate the development of those hairs into mature hairs, without making them become dependent on it.


    Just note - if Minoxidil does regrow hairs in areas where the calcification and such is not fully taken care of, the scalp will not be able to sustain those on its own prior to stopping... however, considering you've been needling for a while, Minoxidil may be exactly what you need. It's a major growth stimulant for hair, and as long as the scalp conditions are taken care of, those hairs will be kept.

    In any case, keep up the good work!
     
  20. Tom4362

    Tom4362 Established Member My Regimen

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    I am really curious what you think about his hypothesis?
     
    #260 Tom4362, Jan 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
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