Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

Androgenic Alpaca

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I am no longer of the belief that DHT is even close to 50% of the cause for most types of even patterned hair loss, I've been through a phase where I utterly nuked my test levels and especially DHT and the pattern hairloss persisted for an extended period of time.

It is my belief based on observed evidence, not broscience that hair vulnerable to what we commonly discern to be androgenic means of loss is actually a broad spectrum vulnerability that applies to various types of inflammation and also a broad range of hormones including GH, prolactin and insulin. They are all related, if the conventional perception were true then finasteride would be a gold standard panacea with virtually no side effects because every case of hairloss would be precisely the same.
"It is my belief based on observed evidence" is literally what broscience is. Every single halfway decent scientific study has established a causal link between androgens (primarily DHT, but others as well) to male pattern baldness.

For the vast majority of men, finasteride is plenty to stop the progression of male pattern baldness (even if it doesn't reverse it). Dutasteride is even more effective. Likewise, androgen blockers have been shown to be effective.

Even though those medications will work for most men, it doesn't work for everyone (like some people on this forum), but if we are to speculate why this may be, we've gone far past the realm of science and are beyond what amateurs can really determine.
 

pegasus2

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Are you honestly going to provide such a culturally irrelevant example as the standard by which the rest of modern civilization should be measured against? Really? Eunuchs aren't a prevalent population anymore, why even cite that?

Are you interested in understanding the nature of pattern hair loss in modern societies or are you trying to win a really lame argument via sophistry?

Why don't people who are born with 5-ar type II deficiency go bald? Go ahead and move the goalposts now. That's what broscientists do
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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You're begging the question, that's not a large portion of the general population, whereas, since you're not reading properly, it is my hypothesis that pattern follicular vulnerability is actually a widespread phenomenon, and it is not completely understood by most people.

I already stated, pattern hair loss is implicated in a broad spectrum of hormones, and those with such a deficiency is not a guarantor that they won't experience hairloss from excess growth hormone, prolactin or insulin. So you're making extremely broad claims that you can't prove. If you think I'm moving goalposts, you're doing cat's cradle with them.

None of what you stated has disproven anything I've stated.

You could theoretically have moderate DHT levels and so long as you have a level of estrogen to compensate and induce more hair growth than loss your hair would be safe from the attrition of pattern hair loss vulnerability from DHT at least. Of course this has a limit because too much estrogen can induce loss as well, but my point is, this issue is way more complicated than saying that nuking androgens will guarantee a regrowth of hair, I know personally this is not true, I've observed in others that it is not true, and the OP of this thread is proof that is not true.

Where else do you really have to go with your argument? Nowhere.
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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"It is my belief based on observed evidence" is literally what broscience is. Every single halfway decent scientific study has established a causal link between androgens (primarily DHT, but others as well) to male pattern baldness.

For the vast majority of men, finasteride is plenty to stop the progression of male pattern baldness (even if it doesn't reverse it). Dutasteride is even more effective. Likewise, androgen blockers have been shown to be effective.

Even though those medications will work for most men, it doesn't work for everyone (like some people on this forum), but if we are to speculate why this may be, we've gone far past the realm of science and are beyond what amateurs can really determine.


No, that's the fundamental basis for the development of science as a discipline.

I've never argued against DHT being a causal factor, but arguing that it is far more complex than asserting "testosterone is the sole cause, just reduce it dramatically". My hypothesis based on what I've observed and my own experience based on hormone tests - is that pattern hairloss is often exacerbated but not solely caused by DHT. I actually disagree that finasteride is an appropriate treatment for most cases of pattern hairloss as it ignores the prevalence of other problem hormones or health issues.

Effective in the sense that they block androgens, but effective in terms of maintaining hair and keeping the subject healthy and looking healthy are two entirely different things.

And no, your final sentence sums up what amounts to an argument from ignorance, like I said the fundamental basis of science was people empirically formulating a hypothesis based on variables they could observe and categorize. Without that we would not have the luxury of what you believe we can only rely on now for diagnostic purposes.

It's my argument that finasteride is fundamentally unhealthy and an excessive measure for most men and that it's adverse health effects are often perceived on a time scale too long for most people to attribute to it's use.

Example: https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1204#:~:text=Conclusions The risk of developing,dutasteride and those receiving finasteride.

Those people who do take those meds who develop full blown diabetes are fucked for hair growth regardless and all they've done is compound an already complex problem. This is precisely what I'm talking about, you wanted a somewhat legit source that contributes to my hypothesis, there you are.

Low testosterone exacerbates poor insulin sensitivity, so this becomes a worsening spiral of unhealthy patterns which simply won't result in quality hair regrowth. My hypothesis is that given western genetics and eating habits, this is actually more of a problem than men simply having too much DHT and it needing to be reduced as a means of preserving hair.


Estrogen can also optimize insulin sensitivity, and if there's a means by which it can be applied contemporaneously without completely decimating testosterone levels, you theoretically can reduce risk of insulin resistance/diabetes which can exacerbate pattern hair loss, and improve hair growth without throwing yourself into a hypohormonal state.


Simply because I don't have a laboratory or staff or a research institute at my disposal does not make my observations illegitimate, that's not what makes a hypothesis "broscience".
 
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Abomination

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Does shed here implies losing ground? If not then don't worry. If yes, then you should expect only maintenance on topical finasteride
I started topical finasteride almost 9 years ago and I have definitely lost ground. And im lossing ground quickly now, hairline is starting to become less defined. This is why im asking if someone has tried dutasteride in mesotherapy fomat. If that doesn't work im out of options. RU and CB are still dodgy chinese powders. CB isn't even easily availble, and RU gives people chest pain.. not a good view.
 

Itsnoahkennedy

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I started topical finasteride almost 9 years ago and I have definitely lost ground. And im lossing ground quickly now, hairline is starting to become less defined. This is why im asking if someone has tried dutasteride in mesotherapy fomat. If that doesn't work im out of options. RU and CB are still dodgy chinese powders. CB isn't even easily availble, and RU gives people chest pain.. not a good view.
I started oral finasteride when i was 17 with 98% density, by 21 i was left with 30% density left. DHT is not the sole cause of hair miniaturation. To completely halt hair loss in its tracks the androgen receptors need to be blocked either locally or systemically.
 

John Difool

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Mesotherapy? Who cares? Why don't you start by swallowing Duta pills? Fina doesn't block isoforms of 5ar so that would be a big improvement already. If that works then you can always improve later with local injections at regular intervals.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Are you honestly going to provide such a culturally irrelevant example as the standard by which the rest of modern civilization should be measured against? Really? Eunuchs aren't a prevalent population anymore, why even cite that?

Are you interested in understanding the nature of pattern hair loss in modern societies or are you trying to win a really lame argument via sophistry?
They are indeed a prevalent population. They are prostate cancer survivors and post-op transgender females qualify as eunuchs technically. Many regrow hair after surgery when given estrogen.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Any thoughts on the three different enzymes responsible for DHT?

It always seemed as though finasteride was letting a lot of reductase through, although that is not a bad thing in itself. Are androgens in general bad for scalp hair? Noah implies this and it seems as though it is true.

DHT is inactivated in the liver and extrahepatic tissues like the skin into 3α-androstanediol and 3β-androstanediol by the enzymes 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, respectively.[8][68] These metabolites are in turn converted, respectively, into androsterone and epiandrosterone, then conjugated (via glucuronidation and/or sulfation), released into circulation, and excreted in urine.[8]

Unlike testosterone, DHT cannot be aromatized into an estrogen like estradiol, and for this reason, has no propensity for estrogenic effects.
 

franzliszt

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They are indeed a prevalent population. They are prostate cancer survivors and post-op transgender females qualify as eunuchs technically. Many regrow hair after surgery when given estrogen.
Hi, I noticed your regimen includes 5mg proscar and 0.5mg duta. what would you say th advantage is to using both finasteride and dutasteride, especially at such a high dose of finasteride?
 

Jacob Williams

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Can anyone explain to me why it’s not recommended to apply estrogel directly to your problem areas? I understand that you can’t prevent it from going systemic and that to get full effect you really want it to go systemic, but I assume you’d still end up with more estrogen in your blood directly where it’s being applied as opposed to rubbing it on my inner arm or stomach.
 

John Difool

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Hi, I noticed your regimen includes 5mg proscar and 0.5mg duta. what would you say th advantage is to using both finasteride and dutasteride, especially at such a high dose of finasteride?
There is no point doing what she is doing unless it's a typo. Using Fina concurrently is pointless. I'd rather bump Duta on higher DHT if I had detectable levels.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Hi, I noticed your regimen includes 5mg proscar and 0.5mg duta. what would you say th advantage is to using both finasteride and dutasteride, especially at such a high dose of finasteride?
Very little. Insurance was covering it. Recently, I changed to only dutasteride plus 100 mg of progesterone, which isn't enough to do anything. I am on medroxyprogesterone acetate at 10 mg which should diminish testosterone some but I have been forgetting to fill and take it. It seems that for me, this is all the estrogen show. I recommend dutasteride as a safeguard but it does raise T levels and it can cause issues there. I think that E-2 only can do all of HRT and hair growth and that the AA's and reductases inhibitors are superfluous for those of us hitting E and T targets and perhaps actually bad for us and our systems as they are jarring and non-natural, AA's being much more jarring than dutasteride or proscar. I have little save effusive praise for the development of reductase inhibitors related to prostate cancer and hair loss. For hair loss, they are about the only thing that gives back a sense of control over the situation, along with oral minoxidil perhaps. Oh, and micro-needling, which I did last night, all over my scalp, even in the fringe and back of the neck areas. It goes fast with the 2.0mm needle. I might try bigger or is it longer <winks> than 2.0mm.

Thanks for asking....
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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Who /dilate/gang here?
Dilate our eyes? Our pseudo-vaginas?

Hanging out are people willing to use sex hormones to grow/re-grow/improve scalp hair, even after years and years of follicles being dormant. It is interesting and with a good vibe of people who have tried things and read much.
 

Abomination

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I started oral finasteride when i was 17 with 98% density, by 21 i was left with 30% density left. DHT is not the sole cause of hair miniaturation. To completely halt hair loss in its tracks the androgen receptors need to be blocked either locally or systemically.

Still not proven that you can block androgen receptors chronically without resulting in up-regulation thus eventually making you go balder with smaller amounts of androgen exposure, which is why I don't use RU, CB etc.
 

Abomination

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Mesotherapy? Who cares? Why don't you start by swallowing Duta pills? Fina doesn't block isoforms of 5ar so that would be a big improvement already. If that works then you can always improve later with local injections at regular intervals.
Because the idea is to localise the impact and reduce systemic impact to a minimum. Hairloss is a local problem, otherwise high androgenic beasts with NW0's like Khabib Nurmagomedov wouldn't be able to exist.
 

John Difool

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First off. My apologies for the long delay. Work got in the way and I had hard deadlines to meet.

WARNING THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG POST, BUT VERY INFORMATIVE. I WILL TRY MY BEST TO BOLD THE MOST IMPORTANT EXCERPTS THAT SHOULD WARRANT ATTENTION!

Part 1 in the series...

Let's tackle the first part of your query: How Whey Protein Destroyed My Hair And Life:


My quick whey protein isolate story: When I was 23 years old, I took high amounts of whey protein isolate 4 scoops per day 5x weekly. 4 scoops = 96g of protein. Plus protein from foods, I was getting around 140-155 grams of protein per day. Fast forward 1.5 years, severe Norwood 3V/4 diffuse hair loss.

Similar to itsnoahkennedy and bridgeburn but more thinning in the mid regions.

P.S. My diet is clean but my bro's diet is the opposite. Smokes hookah as well. He's 1.9 years older than me. He has a full head of hair. Never took bodybuilding supplements. This would be the same for me had I known about how detrimental whey protein and dairy is to the human body and hair.

Took me 6 years to connect the dots and conclude that whey protein was the culprit.

Here are a mixture of eight plausible theories, observations, and factual evidence proving why whey protein/high-protein diets will directly lead to pattern baldness:

1. Probably the best source of corroboration: "The (BCAA’s) Branched Chain Amino Acids in whey protein isolate (WPI) are the real culprit in raising the testosterone levels during and after exercise. Whey protein also has a high (BV) High Biological Value (6) and is absorbed easily due to its small molecular weight. Casein which is found in whey increases serum IGF-1. Scalp IGF-1 is pro hair but serum is anti-hair. An increase in serum IGF-1 can increase DHT. Take a look at the attached Shapiro Chart to see a pictorial view of how Whey Protein Isolate leads to baldness (Circled in red bottom right).

Also, some other user asked about creatine, one bodybuilding product. The answer is yes. Creatine leads to baldness by according to the author raising DHT directly without affecting serum testosterone levels [46] although IGF-1 is elevated [47,48]. A study showed that after 7 days (1 week) of creatine loading, or a further 2 weeks of creatine maintenance dose, there was no change in serum T levels. However, DHT levels increased by 56% after a week of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after two weeks of maintenance [42]. The effect of IGF-I was about 100x that of androgen [4]. See the attached creatine photo for proof."


2. Dr. Eric Berg’s Theory On High-Protein Diets: In that video he confirms soy protein isolates or specific high protein diets can aggravate the liver disconnecting the conversion of thyroid hormones and raising serum IGF-1 causing a buildup of androgens. The serum IGF-1 he was probably referring to was the unbound type, since it’s more bioavailable or freer to bind to androgen receptors, thus potentiating androgenic production

3. Ali Kuoppala Scientific-Based Conclusion On High-Protein Diets: As confirmed by the anabolic guru, Ali Kuoppala strongly believes based on clinical studies, high-protein diets decelerate testosterone, SHBG, and DHT production (you need some DHT (serum) for masculinity) and raise cortisol. Cortisol similar to prolactin is a stress hormone which can cause thyroid and hair depression.

4.
High IGF-1 Levels In Respect To Whey Protein Supplementation: This study conducted over a period of two years further proves whey protein supplementation significantly elevates serum IGF-1. Too much serum IGF-1 causes male pattern baldness. My whey protein story was 1.5 years very close to the timeline of this study. If only I had known to check my hormone levels then, we would've had a glimpse on where these markers stand.

5. Another Scientific Study Cementing Loose Ends: As this study points out, there’s a direct relationship between protein supplements and high serum IGF-1.

6.
Vertex Balding Males Had Higher Serum IGF-1 Content Than IGFBP-3: No need to sum it up. The title says it all.

7. Vertex Baldness Doubled With Men Having Higher Levels Of Serum IGF-1 And Testosterone: No need to sum it up. The title says it all.

8. Hypoglycemia (extremely low levels of glucose) Branches From Exaggerated Insulin And/Or Serum IGF-1 Levels: Because serum IGF-1 is very similar to insulin, it can produce the same effects as insulin by binding to the cell receptors. Based on my story, I was double counting the production of insulin- one through serum IGF-1 and the other through insulin. The overproduction of insulin eventually lead to hypoglycemia, which progressively forced my cell receptors to block the invasion of more insulin from entering into the blood.

Overtime, this vicious cycle lead to a pile up of more sugar in my blood causing some form of insulin resistance. We all know insulin resistance is one of the primary causes of hormonal imbalance and hair loss, and sadly, I was most likely the beneficiary.



Further Clinical Evidence for the Effect of IGF-1 on Hair Growth and Alopecia​

 
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