Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

JaneyElizabeth

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Now Janey:

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Three years back

How the mighty hath fallen....
 

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JaneyElizabeth

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how does the top look now?
It's looking better and better. That was where I first had someone point out my hair loss, in an incipient bald spot and I still have hang-ups about pics from the back or on top. I never let anyone walk or stand behind me since that frat brother of mine tapped me on the crown, saying, "hey, you are getting a little thin on top", and yes lamentably, it was true. It seems as though all my hair is coming back together.

Most interesting thing to me is that the hair on the sides in front of the ears and in the temples is sort of folding downward and hence coming in differently than it seems to for cis-guys who respond to finasteride where the corners fill in more than create an imaginary oval band downward. I have pics galore though since I snap shots blindly with my laptop and iPhone.
 

LEXUS

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I think that statement is too broad. We probably all need the furfur variety of yeast for certain things, probably related to the removal of sebum from the scalp. It/they is present in all scalps to my knowledge. The issue is when a colony overgrows, and DHT and excessive oil production apparently lead to runaway yeast colonization. I have noticed on hormones, especially after beard removal that I only need to wash my hair twice a week. As a male, I often needed to wash it twice a day and at least once daily. There is just a huge difference in oil production in many cis-males.

There was, and it is still available, a baldness treatment called polysorbate 60, and also 80, which were widely marketed in the 80's. The FDA made them stop advertising entirely so now they are usually available in health food stores. Before Rogaine, this is what I used and I continue to believe that it worked very well. I stopped when Rogaine and Proscar came out because polysorbates are a bit of a hassle to use daily. But if they worked, it probably was related to effects on yeast and the products diminishing inflammation by dissolving hardened sebum and sebum in general from the scalp. At lot of guys doing Rob's massages, which I found not to be for me, are saying that they are finding "pockets" of abundant sebum that the massages break up, purportedly under the scalp. So runaway sebum production might be part of the overall search for eliminating things in order to ameliorate male pattern baldness and hair loss.

I also note that the process by which I hypothetically ascribe their efficacy is different from the theory under which they were sold, which was already all but discredited in the 80's. That theory was known as the "sebum plug" theory which everyone now agrees is wrong and not descriptive of the balding process. This doesn't mean that they were snake oil though as what I describe above as a hypothetical reason why they might have worked is far different from the sebum-plugged follicle theory.

Let me further add that like all other male pattern baldness treatments for males, these products did not regrow hair, although they claimed to and often had pictures. The re-growth in the pictures and on the informercials looked exactly like finasteride and minoxidil regrowth, meaning, largely in the crown and barely cosmetically significant. So again, we might be able to halt the hair loss process for males but we can't get the treatment to "regrow" hair except for marginal hair that had just gone out of cycle. Goddess bless.
because of the pandemic, I can't buy AA anymore. I eat only 2 mg E. so far so good.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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because of the pandemic, I can't buy AA anymore. I eat only 2 mg E. so far so good.
That's probably for the better at least according to some, including me because AA's without sufficient estrogen can cause issues and for hair, I don't think that they work much better than reductase inhibitors without estrogen. Assuming you are not interested in feminization, 2 mg seems to be about the limit usable without gyno and there are no guarantees that 2 mg won't cause feminization to different sexually dimorphic body parts and tissues.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I continue to monitor the usage of serms by non-binary transgender females and some report that gyno/breast growth can be reversed by tamoxi and raloxi, afterwards, and going off estrogen might resolve the breast development if done at least during the first year of using hormones. And I am one of those but I think that when I went back on the sauce (estrogen) my breasts were "primed" to grow so you probably are restrained from further usage.

The thinking among many transgender females is that lower, non-habitual used of estrogen is more likely to cause substantial breast development when used at low levels of serum estrogen than those who jump in hitting target levels of E and T. Those who start too high often fuse the breast ducts, halting essentially, all future breast growth.
 

Marky

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I think that statement is too broad. We probably all need the furfur variety of yeast for certain things, probably related to the removal of sebum from the scalp. It/they is present in all scalps to my knowledge. The issue is when a colony overgrows, and DHT and excessive oil production apparently lead to runaway yeast colonization. I have noticed on hormones, especially after beard removal that I only need to wash my hair twice a week. As a male, I often needed to wash it twice a day and at least once daily. There is just a huge difference in oil production in many cis-males.

There was, and it is still available, a baldness treatment called polysorbate 60, and also 80, which were widely marketed in the 80's. The FDA made them stop advertising entirely so now they are usually available in health food stores. Before Rogaine, this is what I used and I continue to believe that it worked very well. I stopped when Rogaine and Proscar came out because polysorbates are a bit of a hassle to use daily. But if they worked, it probably was related to effects on yeast and the products diminishing inflammation by dissolving hardened sebum and sebum in general from the scalp. At lot of guys doing Rob's massages, which I found not to be for me, are saying that they are finding "pockets" of abundant sebum that the massages break up, purportedly under the scalp. So runaway sebum production might be part of the overall search for eliminating things in order to ameliorate male pattern baldness and hair loss.

I also note that the process by which I hypothetically ascribe their efficacy is different from the theory under which they were sold, which was already all but discredited in the 80's. That theory was known as the "sebum plug" theory which everyone now agrees is wrong and not descriptive of the balding process. This doesn't mean that they were snake oil though as what I describe above as a hypothetical reason why they might have worked is far different from the sebum-plugged follicle theory.

Let me further add that like all other male pattern baldness treatments for males, these products did not regrow hair, although they claimed to and often had pictures. The re-growth in the pictures and on the informercials looked exactly like finasteride and minoxidil regrowth, meaning, largely in the crown and barely cosmetically significant. So again, we might be able to halt the hair loss process for males but we can't get the treatment to "regrow" hair except for marginal hair that had just gone out of cycle. Goddess bless.
If you go back that far you must remember the Helsinki Formula. I remember seeing this on TV, home shopping network I think, way before I was even interested in the topic as a kid. I remember how in the before and after pics they would have the before pic with greased or wetted down hair, then the after pic with dry hair and different lighting. I guess that's how they did it before Photoshop came out. And it looks like Helsinki Formula is still sold today, must work to some extent for some people?
 

Marky

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this thread is the biggest load of sh*t in hairlosstalk history, as far as I know OP (bridgeburn) self-identifies as trans/female.

bridgeburn needs to stop with the bullshit and come out of the closet, your lame-*** excuse "I took ungodly amounts of estrogen to salvage my hair" is no longer valid
I to suspected bridge might actually be transgender, but who cares he basically did what once thought was impossible. For me he set a bench mark for how you look at the 100's of products, now and coming down the pipe, claiming to "regrow" hair. No nonsense, no trick photograph and real cosmetic regrowth:
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JaneyElizabeth

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I’ve met bridgeburn, he told me he doesn’t identify as transgender.
This individual knows whereof they speak from earlier in the thread. I still refer to @bridgeburn as "he, him, his" because that was how he referred to himself. He did become either progressively less hung up about appearing/being transgender which gave me an extra feeling of interest in his hair journey and as to how, he put himself out there because he answered all of the nightmare questions from cis-folks related to the loss of sexual prowess, breast growth and diminution of genital size, which pretty much only happens if you let it happen and then can be remedied fairly successfully but the transgender motto is always: YMMV, which goes to people trying meds for hair loss as well, especially AA's.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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If you go back that far you must remember the Helsinki Formula. I remember seeing this on TV, home shopping network I think, way before I was even interested in the topic as a kid. I remember how in the before and after pics they would have the before pic with greased or wetted down hair, then the after pic with dry hair and different lighting. I guess that's how they did it before Photoshop came out. And it looks like Helsinki Formula is still sold today, must work to some extent for some people?
I have written earlier today about New Generation, a polysorbate 60, and about the Helsinki Formula, a polysorbate 80, and have been giving them praise as the remedy that I used from 20 years of age until the age of 24, exclusively, until 1988 when Rogaine came out. Rogaine was much pricier at the time and hard to find without a prescription but since I was living in Brazil, I found it down there sold out of some ramshackle vendor.

I believe that polysorbates might benefit many looking for organic or natural solutions although I guess they are still man-made. The reason that they went out of popularity was minoxidil and then Dr. Lee's version, which had presumably inactive spironolactone in it since spironolactone doesn't work as a topical and boy, did it smell bad. It also coagulated so you had the persistent bottle that you didn't use often but couldn't bear to throw out. It probably did work much better for non-responders to 2% and 5% as it contained 12 to 15 percent minoxidil, which is about the limit, since it too goes out of solution.

Back to polysorbates, both versions had great, campy informercials with Robert Vaughn from 60's television hosting for the Helsinki Formula while Bob Adams, I think, was the homespun vendor who "discovered" polysorbate 60 handling the other informercial which even had a live audience from Sacramento where the product was manufactured. The FDA put them and Lee out of business and the polysorbates became hard to find except in health food stores for much, much less dough. Lee had problems related to prescribing across borders. He still touts different formulas on here.

The main difference between the two polysorbates is that 60 has a consistency that makes it work well as a hair dressing. Polysorbate 80 has to be rinsed thorougly and you were supposed to leave it in either overnight or right after bathing, with recommended times of 5 to 30 minutes at the least.

The best infomercial of all back then was for Hair in a Spray Can, which was stupendous and far, far more effective and easy to use than those that cover, or the crap that you shake on your hair which goes everywhere and makes a big mess. I tried it during my shed and the stuff is bloody expensive and disappointing. I looked all over for a spray version and couldn't find Hair in a Spray Can. Maybe it was bad for the environment.

Poor Jeff Bridge's brother, Beau, uses Hair in a Spray Can on his bald spot to cover it in the Fabulous Baker Boys. It must suck to be brothers with Jeff Bridges or son of Lloyd Bridges hair-wise. I know because my father is 83 and has Ronald Reagan-like hair. My siblings and I do not and my sister especially has poor hair compared to her two brothers.

The other reason that they lost favor was because the sebum plug theory of hair loss was discredited in the 80's and they no longer had a basis for selling them except "try this; promise that it works". Without a huge amount of research, I believe that they might have served as maintenance and since I started on them at 20, I still had and kept until going on HRT, a respectable XY head of hair. Even in my before pics, as bad is they look, finasteride/Duta plus minoxidil kept me in the game, and something was needed to bridge the four year gap until minoxidil was approved. The theory could be that they worked similarly to ketoconozole by altering and lessening inflammation of the scalp by decreasing furfur yeast colonies from overpopulating. Given my persistent dermatitis which is similarly caused by DHT and bacteria and yeast, it seems plausible since Keto is used against dandruff and yeast/dermatitis.

I don't believe that either New Generation or the Helsinki Formula tried to doctor photos, though since there was never any growth/regrowth beyond what minoxidil or finasteride do for the fortunate. Instead, it is hair that was on the verge of going out of cycle. Virtually, always, such hair is not cosmetically significant to anyone else but the balding person, who is happy of course to see any "improvement". But none of the pics from polysorbate 60 and 80 that they showed were likely to make anyone think that it was a "cure" and this is important because my feeling is that both companies were on the up and up. There was literally no other treatment available back then except for estrogen and AA's for females. My doctor refused to prescribe either and told me "to just man up about hair loss". As if....

The pics looked very much like minoxidil regrowth for a very few and for the rest it was assumed to only be maintenance because mathematically, decreasing the rate of hair loss looks pretty much the same as slight "regrowth". For the truly afflicted or non-responders (and now we know why, we think, minoxidil doesn't work for half of us, being due to the lack of certain sulfuric enzymes in the scalp), even if the hair med "works", the hair fall just overwhelms it. Guys with stretched out scalps in the after pics, seem to be fighting an upstream battle to even maintain on finasteride and if they lack the right amount of enzymes, to use minoxidil to good purpose.

After polysorbates came formulas from France (must be good, right, if French?) touting ampoules of liquid with placental factors that were really, really expensive and they had commercials towards the end of the 80's but those were pretty much snake oil although I see "female" hair products that still tout placental "factors" even today. I only bought a few and probably not enough for "results" but I pretty much determined quickly that polysorbates were the cheaper, more efficacious path. Placebo effects? Possibly but I used them on and off until about the age of 49, along with more so Min/finasteride.
 
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Androgenic Alpaca

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Who cares if Bridge is trans? We're on a hair loss forum discussing how to cure hair loss by limiting androgens and adding estrogens. Bridge's gender identification is entirely irrelevant

Clearly his method worked and people on this thread who are trans women and cis men and nonbinary are all looking to benefit from a hormonal therapy
 

JaneyElizabeth

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That's why I am here. Many of us don't see gender at all among non-binary transfemine people, which is slightly a larger cohort than just MtFs. I changed legally to female because it diminishes bullying by police officers who at least see the "F" on my driver's license. Bridgeburn inspired me as I read the thread, especially the first fifteen pages which I have read various times. What is a drag is that you have to scroll through everything to get to the parts where he is explaining things but I have read all or most of the thread because it was forwarded to me by another MtF, whose screen name is "Balding since 14 and it sucks". I noticed that in addition to Bridgeburn, most of those who posted were knowledgeable and although I spend hours and hours answering HRT questions, they are all breast-related and typically non-high level. I am no scientist but I read meticulously so that is a compliment for all of you whose names I knew from reading about you, strangely enough. A few have been banned like Icarus, I know he spells it wrong, and it is strange knowing that if they come back, it will be under a different name, I assume.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Someone mentioned to me this, about latisse which I have been using in addition to minoxidil on my brows and lashes but I think that given latisse's expense, its use for hair regrowth is too high and for lashes, it might have sides that we want to avoid since attractiveness and restoring hair are both implicated together for mals and females:

Thanks for the link. I never saw prostaglandins as being involved in baldness in terms of remedy so I probably missed this plus some males care less about facial "results" as long as we have hair. I am probably going to use the remaining bottle on my scalp although it is such a small amount that it is unlikely to do much or go far unless we make our own at home from mix.

Here's an important quote from the writer:

"Meanwhile, in my own patients I found that this change was occurring in those using any prostaglandin, so I believe it’s safe to say that it’s an issue with the entire class of drugs rather than being unique to any one of them. Of course, there could be differences in how this side effect occurs within the class; it may be a more prominent effect with one drug than another. I have patients who are only on latanoprost (Xalatan) who have full-blown PAP. Hopefully, future studies will determine whether significant differences exist between the prostaglandins".

I will post this on the hormonal thread because it is very helpful to others since most of us already have excessive stacks where we can't determine what does what and latisse is highly expensive. I will keep using the topical minoxidil on lashes and eyes judiciously.

https://www.reviewofophthalmology.com/article/pap-new-concerns-for-prostaglandin-use
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Pure Fun asked:

Can you elaborate on this? Removing the beard actually diminishes DHT levels, am I reading this correctly???

level 5
JaneyElizabeth
1 point·30 minutes ago
I know of no studies except that we know that DHT fundamentally is responsible for hair growth everywhere except on the scalp for females and for essentially all hair among other mammals. So by destroying the beard follicles, it appears that we can diminish DHT's effects on facial flora like yeast and bacteria which can then cause acne and dermatitis.

I had been on dutasteride for years with no resolution of very unpleasant, unbecoming dermatitis. Even spironolactone didn't help. It was only once I was about halfway in the beard removal process that my dermatitis resolved itself seemingly forever. We know a fair amount about how hormones are created and then how they circulate and bind to receptors. We appear to know far less related to the synthesis of DHT in skin tissue itself which seems highly resistant to AA's in general and even to estradiol in the body.

Many MtFs resolve their hair issues more or less automatically under elevated E and low T conditions but others do not. This might be due to especially virulent DHT production in the scalp and perhaps the exchange of sebum and yeast and bacteria colonies between face and scalp but I don't think that we know for sure. I have posted over five years of pictorial evidence of my hair loss, spironolactone shed to near complete baldness and dermatitis and then recovery here:

https://inpursuitoffeminity.blogspot.com/2020/04/oh-well.html

and here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/exploring-the-hormonal-route-hair-life.109288/page-593

with safe for work, obscured breast growth and hair line pics here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/exploring-the-hormonal-route-hair-life.109288/page-592

It would be great to have you participate on the hormonal hair regrowth thread.

So many things like even minoxidil for hair improvement work better/differently when taken orally versus topically that we are still learning why. For oral minoxidil, what appears to take place is that conversion of minoxidil through the liver potentiates it by promoting conversion of sulfuric enzymes in the liver that approximately 40 percent of us lack in the scalp. Luckily or not, HRT meds usually work just as well through a variety of gateways but not minoxidil which I have used forever to great maintenance effect but little regrowth.

So I wouldn't say that beard removal changes circulating DHT but rather that it cuts off a backdoor for skin afflictions like dandruff, dermatitis, acne and hair loss from being synthesized in particular tissues. So much of these unknowns make the problem-solving aspects of HRT compelling to me in that it is a bit like a puzzle to reason through especially in areas where the medical science is still soft.

There is another sense in which beard removal appears to have HRT effects and that has to do with softening of male features and the amazing effects that beard removal has in terms of taking ten or even twenty years off of our faces. When combined with the powerful rejuvenating effects of HRT on all tissue except for bone, beard removal is almost certainly the number one cosmetic tweak or fix available to us in terms of looking more feminine. It sucks and electrolysis is a very unpleasant ordeal but laser is less costly, quicker and good enough for many of us in that any remaining beard growth is diminished to an extent that using a razor for about literally ten to 20 seconds is enough to get us to the point where makeup becomes helpful and not actually a hindrance in terms of potentially making things worse in terms of looking overdone, similar to some older cis-females where heavy makeup calls attention to whatever they are trying to conceal.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Tressless

Did anyone try taking biotin and did it help?

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JaneyElizabeth
1 point·8 days ago
Honestly, I don't know anyone who spends a lot of time researching male pattern baldness who thinks that biotin is worthwhile at all unless the individual is in a state of acute malnutrition. My multi-vitamin has more than enough biotin. This is irrelevant as are B vitamins. How do I know? Because back in 1984 when I first noticed hair loss, the first thing that I went on was biotin and b-vitamins. Take them; they are cheap but it's not a solution nor is it really even a necessary component. I am really into this stuff and I am indifferent about bioltin. My muliti-vitamin just ran out and I guess I need to replace it but that's how little biotin means to me and I spend hours a week on hair loss research. Trust me guys, this isn't going to help 99 percent of people.

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cyclist7100
Score hidden·3 minutes ago
I don't think it regrows new hair but it certainly makes my diffuse hair loss look at lot better. I take 5000mcg a day with a b-complex and 50mg zinc.

Okay most people get plenty of biotin in their diet and deficiency is almost unheard of. However, there is the matter of absorption. A lot of people have gut issues and maybe aren't doing so well for biotin.

Sometimes I wonder why some middle aged people have full heads of dark hair. I don't think it's enough to say it's their genes.

level 3
JaneyElizabeth
1 point·1 minute ago
We are learning a lot about expression of genes and turning them on and off but generally this is why we can't "depend" on good hair genes. I had them and I still had hair loss by the age of 20.

I still don't think that a case for biotin can be made in terms of what you describe. If such results could come from biotin supplementation, it would be the number one hair loss treatment if it came close to having pervasive effects on hair that you describe. Use it; it is one fewer thing to worry about but most males know instinctively that biotin does nothing related to hair growth and even improvement and I have written about this on reddit and hair loss talk.

It is primarily touted by cis-females and salon stylists who have no way of telling if it works without microscopic analysis. Since few of them bald significantly, it is easy to experience placebo notions that it is doing something that it doesn't do. Rob at perfecthairhealth.com has written about biotin and its lack of importance to virtually everyone living in the first world, if we still use that term. Virtually no "natural" hair treatments do anything at all for hair. What works is first AA's to stop hair loss and then estrogen to promote regrowth. I spend a lot of time on the hair loss talk site and the guys using AA's and less than 3 mg of estradiol, appear to get little or no growth, as is true for transsexual gals and eunuchs. Once estrogen is supplemented then hair growth often takes place and often copious hair regrowth even out of slick bald scalp.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I to suspected bridge might actually be transgender, but who cares he basically did what once thought was impossible. For me he set a bench mark for how you look at the 100's of products, now and coming down the pipe, claiming to "regrow" hair. No nonsense, no trick photograph and real cosmetic regrowth:
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He put himself out there without really knowing whether essentially complete regrowth, and at female growth lengths and consistency was possible or not and he placed many pics of his various low-points where he admits resembling a mountain-man with not much hair and a lot of beard (although I think he said he looked like a terrorist or serial murderer, lol).

Not many people can do that as such exposure, particularly related to hair dysphoria, which pretty much all of us have is so painful to show or share with others. He also was exceedingly bright and well-read in the fields of male pattern baldness research and HRT related to both hair regrowth and feminization so that cis-guys could see the possibilities but he never proselytized and that is what many on here claim without it being true.

A lot of guys in the same position as we are, pretend that caring about hair loss is unmanly or that it amounts to chemical castration, which is imprecise and he was open about breast growth and skin effects and being able to remain in a sexual relationship with a female, all of which correspond to my own reality. The HRT battles over whether increasing breast size is even possible since cis-females are unable to increase bust size parallel the issues for cis-males related to hair loss so I found his experience and ability to synthesize and to explain hormonal effects to "outsiders" remarkable.
 
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