Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

JaneyElizabeth

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Here is some advice that I gave to one gal just starting out on HRT and I think that it is pertinent to all using either estrogen or anti-androgen or progestin medicines:

JaneyElizabeth
1 point· 16 minutes ago
I don't think that AA's are essential and they can be jarring to the system unlike E in my opinion. You will know if you need an AA eventually. It depends on how quickly you are titrating upwards on estradiol. If you are going slowly, you might not need one ever or for a year or two. Gals on injections often eschew AA's and find them unnecessary more often than those of us using other methods based upon what I hear from them. I don't like needles. I get enough of those via botox!

The gals who need AA's have typically been MtFs using oral (swallowed) estrogens. In the past, the two most well-known tablets had no long history of human use, mostly as birth control pills. They were either synthetic or estrogens from female pregnant horse urine. Boy, did they work though, especially the synthetic one, although my perspective is more from a hair growth point of view but I digress.

Because these pills were hard on the liver, many, if not most gals struggled to meet their estrogen and testosterone targets and therefore were struggling to finish puberty, if you will, particularly in some of the literature, hair improvement and perhaps final facial softening although these can continue for years.

By using AA's, it was possible to cut way back on the oral tablets that were contraindicated for the liver in the long-term and still have the gals continue/complete feminizing. This is my current point of interest and I hope to report back positively and right now, things look really really good, although I am not using an AA, lol, just pushing past targets. I often try meds if I deem them innocuous to my health and my transition so that I know them better and can advise more completely. I have used spironolactone but I might try bicalutamide later this year and then go down from two patches to one but then again, I might not because they can be jarring and the first goal is do no harm to health or transition.

I would need your age and goals to say more. I am currently recommending two paths, one is a path to maximize breast growth and the other is to feminize as quickly as possible to promote the quickest possible hair regrowth and hopefully facial feminization. Many MtFs (most?) get BA anyway so I am thinking that they can titrate much more quickly upwards by ignoring the breast growth issue which is the main reason why we all hem and haw to provide advice.

Without the breast growth hinderance of going too fast, HRT is easy for MtFs, just like FtMs but we will find other ways to complicate it as we all love to tinker.

Goddess bless.
 

Marky

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View attachment 147169 One of the things that that really drew me into all of this was I started out on piddling amounts of estrogen. I was on Premarin 0.30 mg starting out and nobody believes me. After six months, we titrated upwards to .625 mg. I was non-binary and still had hopes that my wife might come around, eh but I was trying to not get too big in the breast department so that I could still have deniability. Then I went up to a whopping 1.25 mg and 100 mg of spironolactone at the end of the one year mark. Then 2.50 mg Premarin and 200 mg of spironolactone until May of this year. Plus I had three years of DIY while I was stil married using menopausal creams. Everyone on the MtF boards is saying that is not enough but it was plenty. I had big honking breasts and I swear I didn't mean to. MtFs never grow good ones. Now I know that starting off with tiny amounts of E titrated really gradually is the gold standard for breast growth not that it works for everyone.
The other MtFs are all starting off on 6 mg sublingual and an an AA and it's too much. Pubertal girls have very little estrogen and it appears that the best approach for breast growth was tiny amounts titrated gradually upwards. I swallowed my pills too. I am not a sucker.
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This is a wig right?
 

Androgenic Alpaca

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So a lot of discussion in this thread revolves around gynecomastia. I think most cis men's (myself included) biggest concern with this therapy is gyno. I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to fully avoid gyno on exogenous estrogen therapy, but still I'd like to limit it as much as possible.

I don't think mild gyno is that big a deal. I'm pretty sure a third or more of all men have gyno to some extent. Removal of gynecomastia is one of the most common cosmetic surgeries in men. Honestly, mild gyno isn't even noticeable and if it is, most people think nothing of it. Extreme gyno of course is noticeable and most people would think its a problem.

Anyway, I've actually had mild gyno ever since puberty. It's not a problem at all, really. So I'm aware that I won't be able to have a no-gyno outcome of hairloss therapy, but I'd like to not have too much additional gyno growth. Is there any reason to think that already having slight gyno would put me at risk for further gyno development from elevated estrogen levels? Or would it actually prevent further gyno development since this gyno is from over a decade ago and my breast tissue has stopped growing and is now set in its mild state? I'm also trying to reduce my body fat percentage to see if that makes the gyno less visible. I'm already in the "healthy" BMI range, but we'll see if that works.
 

Ephemeral-Kitten

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So a lot of discussion in this thread revolves around gynecomastia. I think most cis men's (myself included) biggest concern with this therapy is gyno. I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to fully avoid gyno on exogenous estrogen therapy, but still I'd like to limit it as much as possible.

I don't think mild gyno is that big a deal. I'm pretty sure a third or more of all men have gyno to some extent. Removal of gynecomastia is one of the most common cosmetic surgeries in men. Honestly, mild gyno isn't even noticeable and if it is, most people think nothing of it. Extreme gyno of course is noticeable and most people would think its a problem.

Anyway, I've actually had mild gyno ever since puberty. It's not a problem at all, really. So I'm aware that I won't be able to have a no-gyno outcome of hairloss therapy, but I'd like to not have too much additional gyno growth. Is there any reason to think that already having slight gyno would put me at risk for further gyno development from elevated estrogen levels? Or would it actually prevent further gyno development since this gyno is from over a decade ago and my breast tissue has stopped growing and is now set in its mild state? I'm also trying to reduce my body fat percentage to see if that makes the gyno less visible. I'm already in the "healthy" BMI range, but we'll see if that works.
It's my belief that if you had gyno from puberty you're probably more likely to develop further gyno because the adipose tissue increases the level of local aromatase enzymes. However, I don't think it will affect the outcome of prolonged estrogen-based treatments; and if it does, it might reduce the final size, but that is conjecture based on anecdotal evidence.
 

LEXUS

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One thing that I believe that is often overlooked when folks talk about baldness has to do with scalp micro-flora. This is a very interesting article that perhaps points out some things that we can do at the margin that might reduce scalp inflammation:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6369642/

Having quickly read it, there was a lot of good stuff. Maybe everyone should be using another dandruff shampoo in addition to keto. Second, I have a theory that beards and baldness might be related on a non-genetic basis based upon my beard removal and hearsay about folks with "minoxodil beards". This could contribute to FtM hair loss since many of them are growing such beards. The key to all of this is the yeast, Malassezia furfur , not sure why they capitalize it but I left it. Together with its friend DHT which helps produce its meals of delicious sebum, this yeast, along with DHT seems to be involved in essentially all dermatological skin conditions above the neck and perhaps rosacea too. My rosacea is gone now.

My unyielding battle with dermatitis on face and scalp was the final determination for me that I was moving forward with HRT. I had only had moderate acne as a teen and no dermatitis and then after the age of 40, the dermatitis become unrelenting. I was on finasteride so that wasn't doing the job and we know now that DHT is synthesized in the beard follicles so maybe the body has a way of pooling what reductase that it has into the beard and scalp.

I have pics on my blog of the terrible dermatitis I had and it was worse on the scalp where it wasn't visible. People should keep an eye on all outbreaks of dermatitis because it potentially can spread from face to scalp and back again.

However, even HRT failed to make much of a dent in my dermatitis. What finally ended it was my beard removal to which I ascribe also hormonal effects similar to HRT. By destroying the follicles, it seems that DHT can't come out and play, at least on the face. Goddess bless.
it turns out if you remove this malassezia futrur then you can stay with testosterone and hair?
 

JaneyElizabeth

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This is a wig right?
Yes.

If you look above, there are two of me wearing it and two without.

Thanks for the compliment! I was fortunate to find one that I think went really well with my coloring. After my shed, it made a big difference that I found that I liked wearing it. Also because I didn't have to pine, not for regrowth, just for a length where I could style it, I wasn't so anxious. I am almost there in terms of length so I have been wearing it less but I might continue wearing it on special occasions or whatever.
Since everyone on here and on the MtF boards knows me this way, I will keep the avatar. Even with the best regrowth, it will be hard to match this wig. When folks ask me about toupees on Tressless, I try to tell them that wigs are a far better experience but for men, just calling it a wig, makes them refuse to wear one.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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So a lot of discussion in this thread revolves around gynecomastia. I think most cis men's (myself included) biggest concern with this therapy is gyno. I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to fully avoid gyno on exogenous estrogen therapy, but still I'd like to limit it as much as possible.

I don't think mild gyno is that big a deal. I'm pretty sure a third or more of all men have gyno to some extent. Removal of gynecomastia is one of the most common cosmetic surgeries in men. Honestly, mild gyno isn't even noticeable and if it is, most people think nothing of it. Extreme gyno of course is noticeable and most people would think its a problem.

Anyway, I've actually had mild gyno ever since puberty. It's not a problem at all, really. So I'm aware that I won't be able to have a no-gyno outcome of hairloss therapy, but I'd like to not have too much additional gyno growth. Is there any reason to think that already having slight gyno would put me at risk for further gyno development from elevated estrogen levels? Or would it actually prevent further gyno development since this gyno is from over a decade ago and my breast tissue has stopped growing and is now set in its mild state? I'm also trying to reduce my body fat percentage to see if that makes the gyno less visible. I'm already in the "healthy" BMI range, but we'll see if that works.
That's a good question. I think that we only have anecdotal information on this. I have noticed that on the MtF boards, folks often attribute really good breast growth (which is rare--I got lucky) to having had gynecomastia before starting hormones. That doesn't make it true though. The other thing is that people don't really distinguish gyno from very slight nipple and breast development, which is what a huge percentage of MtFs only experience.

So from a male point of view, this would amount to very slight gyno with usually big nipples. So guys might like that as long as unaccompanied by breast growth that is really visible. I will try to link the next time I see some representative examples posted over there. But if you go to https://www.reddit.com/r/TransDIY/new/ or https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMtFHRT/new/ you will notice that 75% of the questions are related to breast growth/non-growth. They are obsessed like so many of us hair guys are obsessed. Similarly, they will try anything to increase them like so many of us will try castor oil or onion juice. There is a really convoluted breast growth program by a doctor named Will Powers and they flock there like a cult. He has them putting progesterone up their rear ends as part of his program. He keeps no data at all, however so the mainstream sites and experts ignore him.

The other thing is that I am petite at 170 centimeters and 60 kilos without a broad chest so that makes my breast growth look and feel very natural. Many gals over there are over 185 centimeters and 80 kilos with broad chests. On that type of frame, almost any breast growth is going to both appear small and off, due to the huge difference in chest breadth. Thus, their breasts sit much farther apart than a cis-women's would plus given the frame differences, their breast appear relatively tiny. Over half of MtFs get breast augmentation because of these factors. So for those among you who are large, unlike either @bridgeburn or me, gyno/breast growth might be much less of a problem than you would expect. I am sure most of you guys envision yourselves, at worst, having big female hooters because it seems as though they would be scaled up but it doesn't seem to work this way. So even C cups on many MtFs can look stretched out horizontally and insignificant.

Here's another kicker. If you type in MtF hormones effects in google, you will get hundreds of hospitals and universities and their MtF pages. They list all of the things that could happen, mostly to warn off dabblers so they emphasize permanent breast growth as a side-effect and reason not to touch estrogen. Notice that the converse is not true, however. So MtFs expect significant breast growth but since that is a warning to cis-males, the reality is that side-effects are often subtle at best under HRT, especially for larger cis-males. Many MtFs allege no visible effects externally even after two years on HRT! I answer questions like this all of the time. Such gals claim that HRT isn't working but it is working fine for them. They experience the libido and psychological effects but nothing external or at least on their frames, nothing external is even noticeable.

I will say that I did DIY for a couple of years and then stopped except for using Life Flo Biestro on my scalp and virtually all of my breast growth went away in just a few months so I think that you have to hit a point of "no return" before breast growth is permanent/semi-permanent. I will post some gyno questions on the boards over there to see if gals think that gyno coming in, made a big difference to breast growth. Otherwise, although snarky, I could say that no one should worry about this at the margin since MtFs on average measure to AA cups and any full head of hair is worth AA's, no? Goddess bless.
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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it turns out if you remove this malassezia futrur then you can stay with testosterone and hair?
I think that statement is too broad. We probably all need the furfur variety of yeast for certain things, probably related to the removal of sebum from the scalp. It/they is present in all scalps to my knowledge. The issue is when a colony overgrows, and DHT and excessive oil production apparently lead to runaway yeast colonization. I have noticed on hormones, especially after beard removal that I only need to wash my hair twice a week. As a male, I often needed to wash it twice a day and at least once daily. There is just a huge difference in oil production in many cis-males.

There was, and it is still available, a baldness treatment called polysorbate 60, and also 80, which were widely marketed in the 80's. The FDA made them stop advertising entirely so now they are usually available in health food stores. Before Rogaine, this is what I used and I continue to believe that it worked very well. I stopped when Rogaine and Proscar came out because polysorbates are a bit of a hassle to use daily. But if they worked, it probably was related to effects on yeast and the products diminishing inflammation by dissolving hardened sebum and sebum in general from the scalp. At lot of guys doing Rob's massages, which I found not to be for me, are saying that they are finding "pockets" of abundant sebum that the massages break up, purportedly under the scalp. So runaway sebum production might be part of the overall search for eliminating things in order to ameliorate male pattern baldness and hair loss.

I also note that the process by which I hypothetically ascribe their efficacy is different from the theory under which they were sold, which was already all but discredited in the 80's. That theory was known as the "sebum plug" theory which everyone now agrees is wrong and not descriptive of the balding process. This doesn't mean that they were snake oil though as what I describe above as a hypothetical reason why they might have worked is far different from the sebum-plugged follicle theory.

Let me further add that like all other male pattern baldness treatments for males, these products did not regrow hair, although they claimed to and often had pictures. The re-growth in the pictures and on the informercials looked exactly like finasteride and minoxidil regrowth, meaning, largely in the crown and barely cosmetically significant. So again, we might be able to halt the hair loss process for males but we can't get the treatment to "regrow" hair except for marginal hair that had just gone out of cycle. Goddess bless.
 
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mushroom

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Hey, how to use progesterone rectally? Do I need to buy vaginal, oral or rectal capsules? Because I have only oral and vaginal capsules in pharmacies.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Hey, how to use progesterone rectally? Do I need to buy vaginal, oral or rectal capsules? Because I have only oral and vaginal capsules in pharmacies.
MtFs following the Powers program use prometrium up the ***. Orally, prometrium is mostly lost on first pass through the liver. I am not out for rectal and there isn't any indication that doing so makes the breasts larger. For hair, eh, I don't know but that isn't one that I hear a lot about.
 

phoenix01

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this thread is the biggest load of sh*t in hairlosstalk history, as far as I know OP (bridgeburn) self-identifies as trans/female.

bridgeburn needs to stop with the bullshit and come out of the closet, your lame-*** excuse "I took ungodly amounts of estrogen to salvage my hair" is no longer valid
 

JaneyElizabeth

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this thread is the biggest load of sh*t in hairlosstalk history, as far as I know OP (bridgeburn) self-identifies as trans/female.

bridgeburn needs to stop with the bullshit and come out of the closet, your lame-*** excuse "I took ungodly amounts of estrogen to salvage my hair" is no longer valid
I don't think that he comes around anymore but in essence, he did two years of research for us as to what could work depending upon the level of aversion to risk. I have read the entire thread and my recollection is that he identified as male in terms of pronouns all throughout but did come to see himself as agender by the end.

He was also using oral minoxidil and he used various AA's, all three of the most well known, meaning bicalutamide, spironolactone and cyproterone acetate. He freely admitted significant breast growth as do I, which is a bit strange given that most MtFs experience little to no breast expansion. He wasn't using a particularly large amount of estrogen, however. I think he was at 6 mg at the end of his part of the thread. He feminized incredibly also, compared to what I have seen in other adult MtFs without surgery or other facial treatments.
 

Marky

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I never thought about estriol pills. Is Life-Flo too expensive? Or do you not like the carrier? The problem with adding progesterone and I did too is it is impossible to verify if it is doing anything without testing and even then you have to put it in the backdoor or maybe inject it. I hear some good things about its effects on breasts, face and scalp but everything always comes back to estrogen for hair and except for boobs, for most MtF things.

This is sort of my job now meaning the courts are still lagging so I apply estrogel maybe ten times a day. I use it as a hair tonic like the old Vitalis--boy, those disappeared--and I also use it on the normal areas of interest.

One thing that I might point out to guys is that look at the area in front of your ears. Even guys with full coverage tend to have far less hair here than women and that is sort of part of the female hairline even though it is vertical in orientation. That's why it can be so hard to verify one's own progress. A lot of guys like Shia Leboeff (sp) have decent hair on top but the hair in front of the ears is distracting. Yes, that is how much of a perfectionist I am but I hate jagged "hairlines" in front of the ears and many, many males have this. So, I put estrogel especially where the sideburns meet the wispy hair coming down from the hairline. That can fill in so gradually that you can tell that things are better but it is hard to articulate because the temples still lag.
You think applying Egel on the hairline & face is more effective than other body parts?
 

Gergely

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this thread is the biggest load of sh*t in hairlosstalk history, as far as I know OP (bridgeburn) self-identifies as trans/female.

bridgeburn needs to stop with the bullshit and come out of the closet, your lame-*** excuse "I took ungodly amounts of estrogen to salvage my hair" is no longer valid
How is this relevant in terms of results? Obviously if you care about erectile function or having a family, you should never do this.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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You think applying Egel on the hairline & face is more effective than other body parts?
Effective for regrowth? I think that there is sufficient evidence that this accelerates the process via localized and systemic effects but most MtFs don't do this, put it in their hair. They get hair regrowth from oral or parenteral ingestion. What I am trying to do is find the target points related to E and T, needed to facilitate scalp hair regrowth as opposed to effects below the neck which came easily and rapidly for me. But hair regrowth appears to require much higher serum levels of estradiol.

Now in terms of efficiency related to obtaining higher levels of E, the ingestion point most efficient is via genital tissue so if money is a concern, as it often is for us, then applying Estrogel to the scrotum is the way to go.
 

phoenix01

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I don't think that he comes around anymore but in essence, he did two years of research for us as to what could work depending upon the level of aversion to risk. I have read the entire thread and my recollection is that he identified as male in terms of pronouns all throughout but did come to see himself as agender by the end.

He was also using oral minoxidil and he used various AA's, all three of the most well known, meaning bicalutamide, spironolactone and cyproterone acetate. He freely admitted significant breast growth as do I, which is a bit strange given that most MtFs experience little to no breast expansion. He wasn't using a particularly large amount of estrogen, however. I think he was at 6 mg at the end of his part of the thread. He feminized incredibly also, compared to what I have seen in other adult MtFs without surgery or other facial treatments.

forget what he said here, he came out as trans/female on the now defunct unofficial HairLossTalk discord channel
 

JaneyElizabeth

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forget what he said here, he came out as trans/female on the now defunct unofficial HairLossTalk discord channel
Obviously, that doesn't matter to me. But the idea of non-binary transgender has changed the way that people self-identify. Like me, he preferred women as preference often is not tied to feminization but someone could conceivably argue that he and I made ourselves trans by trying estrogen to begin with and then became enchanted with the experience.

Life under estrogen's regime is simply more pleasant to me and I had other issues that led me to identify as non-binary so I don't believe that HRT leads one to become transgender in the sense of post hoc ergo prompter hoc.
 
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phoenix01

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Obviously, that doesn't matter to me. But the idea of non-binary transgender has changed the way that people self-identify. Like me, he preferred women as preference often is not tied to feminization but someone could conceivably argue that he and I made ourselves trans by trying estrogen to begin with and then became enchanted with the experience.

like I said before, this thread is pure horse-sh*t. OP is being deceptive and hiding behind half-truths, not to mention refusing to disclose his true intentions (transitioning from M t F), therefore the narrative that he/she took; duta, bica, CPA, E, spironolactone, etc.. to save his hair is a LIE
 

Gergely

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like I said before, this thread is pure horse-sh*t. OP is being deceptive and hiding behind half-truths, not to mention refusing to disclose his true intentions (transitioning from M t F), therefore the narrative that he/she took; duta, bica, CPA, E, spironolactone, etc.. to save his hair is a LIE
Could be true, but he/she is more than likely started HRT only to gain hair. What came after... mehh idk
 
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