Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

JaneyElizabeth

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RetinA unproven. Try Progesterone topical instead. Large amounts of E2? Lol. If only this was the answer... SHH and Wnt signaling are the bomb when added to PGE2 & SW. Vellus goes terminal at light speed (thanks @pegasus2) That stuff got me back on track in no time. You want to accelerate things: get HGH & IGF peptides and start scalp injections. You have extra money add TB-500.

Ymmv!
I am pretty happy already so I am going to keep going forward essentially with E-2 only and without monitoring any levels of anything as long as I am hitting standard E and T adult female targets. Using estrogel the way that I do is extreme in that I apply it on days when I am home maybe ten times a day to scalp face and other targets. I haven't the bandwidth for anything else.

I get plenty of email related to my below the neck and facial results, which is all surgery free except for hair removal which in my view, facially, is likely to have significant positive effects but then again, I might just be cute generally, male or female, lucky or blessed by my Goddess in heaven but I am not capable of monitoring any further aspects of hair/HRT medications or results and I don't think that it works in HRT and I live on the redditt transfeminine science thread with everything bookmarked. I am also somewhat down on complexity because it seems to only discourage gals without "results". And gal after gal after gal, particularly it seems the taller ones and the broader ones seem to indicate that their external results are all but non-existent/inconsequential.
 

baldingyoungsucks

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Hey everyone what’s better for regrowing hair and thinning body hair? Bicalutamide or Spirolactone? I’m a Norwood 2. Please help
 

Itsnoahkennedy

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Hey everyone what’s better for regrowing hair and thinning body hair? Bicalutamide or Spirolactone? I’m a Norwood 2. Please help
Bicalutamide is the stronger AA but spironolactone has its own benifits. I thing you should read this thread like @John said or read the clinical study papers written about each drug.
 

Androgenic Alpaca

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I am not trying to address the audience with low iq. When dealing with these things by yourself you need to learn and study hard. If these simple steps are to complicated for some folks then I suppose they are welcome to follow their endo and dermatologist advices. After all most do with variable success rates. I came disappointed and désillusioned with some parts of modern medicine practices. So I decided to invest my time in this. I am sharing if someone feels the same about it and had similar experience and goals. I have tons of powders in my freezer I tried and discarded. I just want to avoid others willing to invest to make the same mistakes.
RetinA unproven. Try Progesterone topical instead. Large amounts of E2? Lol. If only this was the answer... SHH and Wnt signaling are the bomb when added to PGE2 & SW. Vellus goes terminal at light speed (thanks @pegasus2) That stuff got me back on track in no time. You want to accelerate things: get HGH & IGF peptides and start scalp injections. You have extra money add TB-500.

Ymmv!

Medical doctors have different goals than us. Doctors are scientists, after all, and they are interested in establishing safe and scientifically proven therapies. This takes a long time with lots of research. The people on this forum are seeking out results, even if that means using untested research chemicals. As much as some of the people on this forum might like to think of themselves as amateur scientists, what happens on here is not science.

Truthfully, I personally would not want to use a lot of the therapies that you and pegasus use. Shh agonists, WNT modulators, HGH, PGE2, etc. act on pathways that have been linked to carcinogenesis. I'm not saying that the particular chemicals are carcinogenic, just that those therapies might carry risk as there is no scientific evidence on their safety. Moreso than even HRT. HRT therapies are relatively safe. Yes, they may cause permanent infertility, but they are mostly proven to be safe and effective (to be fair, CPA carries some risks). Personally, I think that I will save some of Pegasus's methods for a last resort if all other options prove unsuccessful. Nonetheless, I think its great that you and Pegasus are doing these therapies and posting results here for everyone to see.

I think we can all agree that anyone who may want to try any of the unproven therapies mentioned on this forum need to do as much research as possible before trying things out.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Hey everyone what’s better for regrowing hair and thinning body hair? Bicalutamide or Spirolactone? I’m a Norwood 2. Please help
Most say bicalutamide but it depends also on whether you are using estrogen or not. Both work well for many people. Bica presents more long-term concerns while spironolactone often smacks people in the face with non-life-threatening sides that can be hard to endure.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Here's my screed about HRT meds being used improperly and without caution, and as I mention, I was guilty of being dismissive of the strong and pervasive side-effects and jarring effects of using AA's improvidently or in the case of MtFs, without cause. This applies as written only to HRT when done intentionally to feminize. If it serves as a warning to cis-males to avoid AA's then people often say that we on this thread might be reckless and each has to make their own decision. Cis-males have different goals and estrogen in the amounts needed by MtFs for hair growth appears to be a no-go for essentially all of them.

HUGE T increase on spironolactone

This started as a comment on a great post asking for advice about Bica vs. spironolactone, which I want to hear about, but I'm a little bit freaked out and have seen a ton of great knowledge shared here, so here I go.
I started my medical transition 11months ago on 100mg of spironolactone. I only started on t-blockers because I was worried about mental health changes and a trans friend suggested it. I was also a little unsure to some degree. My T was still hovering at the same place it started around 700 after a couple months, so we upped my dose to 200mg.
By this summer it became clear I needed Estrogen. I started on 1mg two months ago with the intention to titrate up, which I am currently doing at 2mg, soon 3mg. I made this decision with my NP just the other day based off my Metabolic panel and my Estradiol levels, which was 43. There was an issue with the labs coming in late, so we didn't have the Testosterone to reference. however when it came back later today, it was 1053 and my free testosterone was 92.3.
Since starting spironolactone, I have no motivation. Not to cook, not to clean, barely to work, not to socialize, and I'm always angry. I thought this was because I was so low on sex hormones. Here's what I think I understand and some questions:
My testosterone could be getting blocked from binding with my receptors, but still being produced. The lack of Estradiol might have even exacerbated that, so my dosage change could help. However, is this in any way normal?
spironolactone v. Bica - Tell me everything. It seems like women who started on spironolactone but changed to bica have had success. Please advise. I'm in the US so cypro is not really an option and doesn't sound right to me.
Again, my motivation is sh*t and my generally manageable mental health goes from seemingly impossible and suicidal to so angry I have to close myself in my room and literally get in a fighting match with my bed and pillows so I don't scare my dog. When I read about testosterone issues happening in men due to anabolic steroids, I felt like that really described my experience. What do people think or have to say?
Thank you everyone and anyone who answers this post.

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JaneyElizabeth


1 point · 23 minutes ago

I find what you recount disturbing not only in terms of advice from someone who, I mean, I am sort of doing the same thing, as I am no doctor but I try to only synthesize what we don't know mostly since we know so little but I never recommend anyone not use estrogen, even non-binary folks.

Again and again and again when I read complaints both here and on a hair loss thread related to HRT, AA's are involved. I think that for the most part for most people, AA's are yesterday's trash. They have been incorporated due to stasis in medication procedures and the failure by many to realize that the only point of AA's is when someone can't hit targets and you don't need to hit targets for up to years. Things like the Powers program even though he touts bicalutamide, are only more of the same stacking of potent medications without having a full handle on what or why except, "hmm, maybe adding this and switching ingestion methods of estrogen three times using different metabolites would work...." But we are the ones being experimented on on and suffering the consequences and at the very least, I want to see some data compiled instead of Tony Robbins-type hoopla. Where are the pictures? I digress a bit because I am infuriated about all of this over-medication when none of us are sick!

In the olden days, many gals never could get to targets because the meds, largely swallowed synthetic and non-human estrogens could cause significant liver artifacts the longer they were used. Due to this fear, physicians refused to prescribe enough estrogen in these forms and of course, MtF's didn't fully feminize in the long run and specifically in terms of what might be called hair and above the neck results. Breast growth can come right at the beginning or not; we are all different.

AA's in my experience impact sharply on strength and fatigue and cause much more weakness than using estrogen alone without any payback. Bica is said to be great for this and that, particularly hair but where's the evidence that it is better than just estradiol? I don't think that there is any. There could be triggering mechanisms related to hair growth and other aspects but we don't know and the risks and sides are often life-crippling. For spironolactone, people mention weakness, fatigue, brain fog (which I think is the same as the first too, largely, i.e., too tired to think). spironolactone is a potassium-sparing diuretic and causes excessive urination and the need to increase NaCl uptake. I had a shaker on my nightstand because I often awoke wanting table salt. In certain situations these potassium-raising aspects can be quite serious.

I am not saying that spironolactone doesn't work in certain circumstances but usually there are indeed reasons why targets can't be hit otherwise or there should be. If it is merely a question of speed, then I wouldn't touch the stuff. I went completely bald and I was sweating uncontrollably last summer and felt as weak as a kitten. None of that hurt results but who wants to lose all of her hair in her quest to regrow it? Higher T is a widely known and common, if not likely occurrence from using spironolactone and bica.

These are strong, jarring meds that derive from prostate cancer research which doesn't mean that they don't work but estrogen seems to work for almost all of us in a non-jarring way. The goal probably should be to be on the fewest different types of medications possible and not stacking med after med in the search of better "physical" results.

Less is more; simpler is often better especially when unlike in prostate cancer, we aren't receiving real-time or semi-real time readings to evaluate and adjust to. I think HRT has gotten out of control in the search for a la carte "results" and I become less and less sanguine about the lack of reasonable expectations and even what appears to be anger by some MtFs when they don't see happen what they though was a certainty, at least something positive results-wise. Maybe this is too bleak but these are powerful meds and not to be used without caution and respect for what they can do, and I was no different leaping to 200mg of spironolactone well ahead of what my doctor recommended and she never even recommended any spironolactone until I basically told her I would buy it offshore otherwise. She had me on tiny amounts of estrogen and she was right and I was wrong and I owe her great thanks for my "results" and I recently emailed and told her so.

I know that you can get this resolved and I hope that you will report back with your improvement.

Goddess bless.
 
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Junely

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Solid results so far. Hair regrowth takes a lot of time - how long have you been on your regimen? And any particular reason you're not using minoxidil?
Finasteride and dermarolling since january, never had a shed or regrowth so it felt like it did nothing. Started estrogen on July 12th and bica on 1st of August.
I want to avoid minoxidil since I don't wanna be stuck using it and it's a hassle to apply with longer hair, I was going to add it to my regime after 6 months HRT if needed but so far it seems like I won't have to.
It's kind of weird seeing how much my hairline has progressed since I'm losing 100ish hair every day in the shower
 
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baldingyoungsucks

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Bicalutamide is the stronger AA but spironolactone has its own benifits. I thing you should read this thread like @John said or read the clinical study papers written about each drug.
I have read both and it seems like both have its ups and downs but bica seems to be the safest. I’m still wondering which is better for hairloss? Also I heard bica causes t levels to rise in the beginning. Can that cause a lot of hairloss?
 

Father_of_Shiseido

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Obviously it's not a regimen for cis men. Maybe bridgeburn used his hair as an excuse to transition, this is the first I'm hearing of it. Either way he messed himself up pretty severely. He does look better now than he did before regardless of how he wants to identify.

I wish he would come back and let us know how things are going now. I would like to see a cis man try this, grow back his hair in a few months and then see if he can reverse the feminization and get his sperm back all while keeping the hair.

At a time I was on 400 mg of spironolactone. I got pretty bad gyno and erectile dysfunction plus facial feminization. For some people it doesn't matter. But I realized that putting my manhood at stake just for the shake of hair was not worth it.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I was wondering if we could get some feedback on the following from someone regarding this since I have very little knowledge regarding these meds. I know that John, Pegasus and some others are likely to know something about this. Thanks everyone:

Hi janey, it's fchopin from Reddit.
Sorry for the late reply, I have to go to bed early. I'm currently on a zoladex injection and going through the t flare stage, and so was wondering how effective topical bicalutamide in a dmso solution would be. Being trans, the drug going systemic wouldn't be an issue, and bica dissolves well in DMSO. The worry I have is dosing, and would it be dangerous having bica shoot straight into the blood stream. Others on the forum have explored the idea, but were wary of systemic absorption, and were only using an ethanol based solution. If I were to try this, it would be by crushing 150mg casodex pills.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Hard Regrowth: Analog, Digital or both?

Is hair regrowth likely or not for any of us using MtF HRT meds? I see things like the following all of the time that appear to ignore the prevalence of hair regrowth while overstating the prevalence of other possible effects. I know that it says "may" related to breast growth but the following clause seems to imply a process that seems likely and extended. "Progression of baldness may slow" seems to be understating the matter:

"Within the first 6 months of therapy, there is typically a redistribution of body fat, decreased muscle mass, softening of skin, and decreased libido. Breast growth may be expected after 3 to 6 months of therapy and may continue for up to 2 years. Over a period of several years, body fat and facial hair become finer, although they are not completely eliminated by hormonal therapy alone. Progression of male pattern baldness may slow; however, hair does not typically regrow in bald areas. Many of the changes, perhaps with the exception of breast growth, are reversible with cessation of therapy".


This is the article/one person study that has had a lot of influence on my thinking about hair regrowth under HRT and why it may not be linked temporally to other MtF feminization results:

"One goal of hormone therapy for male-to-female individuals is to reduce male-pattern hair growth. Based on our clinical experience, we have long suspected that there was reversal of male pattern baldness in transgender women on treatment to a degree dependent on age and likely other factors. The case presented demonstrates that hormone therapy for male-to-female transgender patients with estrogen and spironolactone can not only reduce male-pattern hair distribution but can also reverse previous effects of androgen on scalp hair patterns".

I love the phrase "to a degree dependent on age and likely other factors". It's always the other factors that trip us up....

"We believe that the mechanism responsible for achieving scalp hair regrowth in transgender women is the suppression of testosterone to normal female levels. In our experience, this usually requires therapy with both spironolactone and estradiol. However, if transgender women treated with estrogen alone can achieve testosterone at normal female levels, we would expect to see scalp hair regrowth in these patients as well. Furthermore, it would be interesting to determine whether more scalp hair regrowth occurs over time as this patient continues hormone therapy."

So, if suppression of testosterone to normal female levels is the key, then regrowth for non-MtF's appears to be unlikely even when using AA's, reductase inhibitors and some amount of estrogen. I do not believe however, that this means that cis-males are incapable of improvement. The process is not as digital as that in my experience as I think that most if not all, tend to experience hair improvement and improvement that is apparent to others, beginning more or less from day one of the HRT process. Whether it is cosmetically significant is probably another question.

I know that achieving testosterone at normal female levels is not necessary for significant breast growth, skin effects and fat re-distribution anecdotally. Furthermore, most MtFs who see these effects notice them early on, certainly before they reach targets.

@bridgeburn seemed to have hair improvement that was easily apparent from the beginning. Since he didn't test regularly (nor do I, only four times since I started formal HRT) it would be interesting to estimate what his progressing T and E levels were as he went along. So the situation regarding hair regrowth via the anecdotal experience of the thread's founder appears to be far more benevolent then how stated in the study, which presented matters in a more digital, not analog fashion. If this involves gene expression then which is it? Do we have to hit target T to initiate things or are there also more minor persistent triggering mechanisms going on?

I will try to submit for testing this week to see where I stand.
 
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franzliszt

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Just a follow up on the topical bica query:
I'm 20 years old in the uk and have been on hrt for about 7 months. For the first 3 months I had little changes, my hair continued to fall out, as it has been doing for the last few years. I was on 100mg bica initially, later 50mg and 2 estradot 100 patches . It's only after adding finasteride did the hair loss stop, and my skin became much healthier. I started to use injections at 4 months and things continued to improve, and felt as if my T was adequately suppressed (a blod test showed 0.8nmol/l of testosterone) finasteride however causes severe depression and brain fog, so I had to stop. I upped the dosage of bica to 75mg and started taking finasteride less often and rreverted back to patches in fear of having too high levels (mg gp refuses to monitor my blood). I've also noticed liver pain and excessive apetite which I'm guseeing is the bica, after upping the dose to 75mg in an attempt to counteract dropping the finasteride, and less estradiol to suppress the T. My hair continues to fall out, in addition to other male characteristics returning (BO, oily skin, larger testes etc.) so instead of taking liver damaging anti androgens, I want full chemical castration and 4 days ago administered a zoladex 10.8. My hope is that is achieves castrate levels of T and DHT, but if not I think topical Bicalutamide may be a good option, avoiding the liver toxicity. I think that sums up my situation, although I've probably missed out a few important details. My intention is to crush a 150mg casodex pill and dissolve it into 50% DMSO, I have no idea if this would be safe or not, does anyone have any advice/similar experiences
 

Androgenic Alpaca

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Just a follow up on the topical bica query:
I'm 20 years old in the uk and have been on hrt for about 7 months. For the first 3 months I had little changes, my hair continued to fall out, as it has been doing for the last few years. I was on 100mg bica initially, later 50mg and 2 estradot 100 patches . It's only after adding finasteride did the hair loss stop, and my skin became much healthier. I started to use injections at 4 months and things continued to improve, and felt as if my T was adequately suppressed (a blod test showed 0.8nmol/l of testosterone) finasteride however causes severe depression and brain fog, so I had to stop. I upped the dosage of bica to 75mg and started taking finasteride less often and rreverted back to patches in fear of having too high levels (mg gp refuses to monitor my blood). I've also noticed liver pain and excessive apetite which I'm guseeing is the bica, after upping the dose to 75mg in an attempt to counteract dropping the finasteride, and less estradiol to suppress the T. My hair continues to fall out, in addition to other male characteristics returning (BO, oily skin, larger testes etc.) so instead of taking liver damaging anti androgens, I want full chemical castration and 4 days ago administered a zoladex 10.8. My hope is that is achieves castrate levels of T and DHT, but if not I think topical Bicalutamide may be a good option, avoiding the liver toxicity. I think that sums up my situation, although I've probably missed out a few important details. My intention is to crush a 150mg casodex pill and dissolve it into 50% DMSO, I have no idea if this would be safe or not, does anyone have any advice/similar experiences

Are you doing your HRT fully DIY? I understand that healthcare for trans people sucks in the UK. If you're getting liver pain, that sounds not good. Get a doctor to check your liver enzyme levels immediately. Getting a Doctor's advice is always the best option when it comes to potentially dangerous events like liver failure. Don't get medical advice from randos on the internet if you are having severe side effects like liver pain

As for the bicalutamide, frequently testosterone production will be up-regulated in response to the blocking of Androgen receptors, so it is possible that is what you were experiencing. Theoretically, your estradiol injections should have been suppressing testosterone production, though. I understand that it's hard for you to get your Doctor to monitor your hormone blood levels, but that's really the only way to know what's going on for sure.

As for topical bicalutamide - this is a question that I'm interested in, too. I'm currently using a topical AA called RU58841; both Bicalutimaide and RU58841 are non-steroidal anti-androgens. Personally, I would like more information on a comparison of effectiveness of topical antiandrogen use. I will have to do more research on that topic.
 

franzliszt

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Are you doing your HRT fully DIY? I understand that healthcare for trans people sucks in the UK. If you're getting liver pain, that sounds not good. Get a doctor to check your liver enzyme levels immediately. Getting a Doctor's advice is always the best option when it comes to potentially dangerous events like liver failure. Don't get medical advice from randos on the internet if you are having severe side effects like liver pain

As for the bicalutamide, frequently testosterone production will be up-regulated in response to the blocking of Androgen receptors, so it is possible that is what you were experiencing. Theoretically, your estradiol injections should have been suppressing testosterone production, though. I understand that it's hard for you to get your Doctor to monitor your hormone blood levels, but that's really the only way to know what's going on for sure.

As for topical bicalutamide - this is a question that I'm interested in, too. I'm currently using a topical AA called RU58841; both Bicalutimaide and RU58841 are non-steroidal anti-androgens. Personally, I would like more information on a comparison of effectiveness of topical antiandrogen use. I will have to do more research on that topic.
Thanks for the reply, I managed to get a liver and kidney test done (before the pains started) and the tests came out ok, and no more pain since quitting bica. Do you think a 50% DMSO soulution would be suitable? Do you think that over time using it topically would upregulate the androgen receptors too?
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Related to facial feminization effects of HRT and hormonal meds on cis-males:
Notice the lightening in the complexion in general. There is a lack of frontal bossing above the eyebrows which is a highly sexual dimorphic facial aspect in adult humans. There is a tendency for the lips to thicken and for the cheekbones to become more prominent with the eyes more upfront and open. It is often quite sublte and can be influenced by things like micro-needling, massage, botox and filler. For anyone concerned, probably the eyes are the first thing to notice. The beard removal had a huge effect on eradicating my dermatitis with filthy pics of my scorched face here:


Progress Pics from three years back to a month or two back:
https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/comments/ioj4fr
 
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DogoDiLaurentiis

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90% of your gyno is likely from the estrogen. I have a very strong belief that estrogen is not directly actually helpful to hair growth, and the reason estrogen helps hair growth is more by suppressing your androgen production when it goes systemic

I know this is bordering on necroposting considering how far off-topic this is, but I just had to respond because I have in the past taken the route of doing an exclusively hard systemic reduction of androgens and it did absolutely -nothing- to help my hair grow. I do believe the contrary, that not only does estrogen improve skin in certain ways, but it also induces hair growth as well, in the same way that low estrogen can induce joint pain. Estrogen is an anti-inflammatory hormone, and if you can manage to localize the effects of the estrogen to the scalp, and mitigate the titty and fat accumulation quotent (if you in fact don't want titties or to be a bit thicc), then you're basically set.
 

Androgenic Alpaca

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I know this is bordering on necroposting considering how far off-topic this is, but I just had to respond because I have in the past taken the route of doing an exclusively hard systemic reduction of androgens and it did absolutely -nothing- to help my hair grow. I do believe the contrary, that not only does estrogen improve skin in certain ways, but it also induces hair growth as well, in the same way that low estrogen can induce joint pain. Estrogen is an anti-inflammatory hormone, and if you can manage to localize the effects of the estrogen to the scalp, and mitigate the titty and fat accumulation quotent (if you in fact don't want titties or to be a bit thicc), then you're basically set.
yeah your position seems to be the general consensus among most of the posters here. Blocking androgens can prevent hair loss but estrogens are needed for the dramatic regrowth. The more I think about things, the more I like the use of topical anti-androgens as there's really no need for a systemic androgen blocking just for hairloss. spironolactone could be the exception of an oral AA that is worth taking as it seems to have additional benefits for hair growth
 
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