Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

Itsnoahkennedy

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Thanks Noah that's useful.
CPA also causes adrenal insufficiency, perhaps this helps too - idk? Squeeze that T... Maybe I should also add spironolactone to help with this effect?? Lol... 0T

@Janey - The back door thing I keep refering too is the alternative pathways to DHT that might not be blocked with just an 5ari

It could be, i never did extensive research on the adrenal glands contribution to DHT conversion so I can’t comment on it much. I know CPA+Bicalutamide counter eachother and cause problems (in my own body at least), ikarus reported the same issue. CPA+Spironolactone might behave differently since they are both steroidal, i never tried them together. If you try it look out for things like the occurrence of acne / oil production where there was none previously & let me know how it goes.
 

Itsnoahkennedy

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It could be, i never did extensive research on the adrenal glands contribution to DHT conversion so I can’t comment on it much. I know CPA+Bicalutamide counter eachother and cause problems (in my own body at least), ikarus reported the same issue. CPA+Spironolactone might behave differently since they are both steroidal, i never tried them together. If you try it look out for things like the occurrence of acne / oil production where there was none previously & let me know how it goes.
If the two drugs actually work together and don’t end up fighting for receptors then you don’t have to worry about the adrenal system DHT since spironolactone will be occupying the receptors.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Me? I am she. I should really change my PP to my actual face, sorry.
I'm still trying to recover my temples and get that NW0 I've tried all of the usual 'front' door methods. Just curious about the back door. I guess I need to test my 3a androstanediol glucuronide levels to see if I really do have that problem. I've been on Bica & Oral min pretty much all year (Powers states that Bica will fix the back door issue) but it hasnt in my case as my hair is worse now than in Feb 2020. Reading what John wrote a few pages back it could be that Bica cases a degree of masculinization over time? I'm not sure if that's from t receptors going mutant (if that's a thing) or just from the free T?
Sorry I'm just thinking out loud here. Just planning a way forward. I'll prob also lower and phase out Bica and get back on CPA.

Has anyone actually had success with Bica & hairline recovery
Welcome. I thought, well you hear a lot of back door jokes. I am interested in helping folks who are "stalled" as long as we aren't talking about breast stalls and I think that unlike in the case of MtFs, we don't have a lot of years of cis-guys trying to restore hair loss on hormones. The crux right now in my mind seems to be E levels but you might have perfect E and T levels as a female and still not progressing. Many MtFs continue to get hair transplants which is something that as a previous diffuse thinner, I am not considering,
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Me? I am she. I should really change my PP to my actual face, sorry.
I'm still trying to recover my temples and get that NW0 I've tried all of the usual 'front' door methods. Just curious about the back door. I guess I need to test my 3a androstanediol glucuronide levels to see if I really do have that problem. I've been on Bica & Oral min pretty much all year (Powers states that Bica will fix the back door issue) but it hasnt in my case as my hair is worse now than in Feb 2020. Reading what John wrote a few pages back it could be that Bica cases a degree of masculinization over time? I'm not sure if that's from t receptors going mutant (if that's a thing) or just from the free T?
Sorry I'm just thinking out loud here. Just planning a way forward. I'll prob also lower and phase out Bica and get back on CPA.

Has anyone actually had success with Bica & hairline recovery?
@bridgeburn did but he had success with all of the big three AA's seemingly. Many of us have had sheds either when adding an AA or going off one as I have gone through the thread.
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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i wish i had your hairline right now :rolleyes: i have a 5head
You hair line in your avatar is like what I call anchorman hair. Often they seem to have perfect hair except for substantial corner loss in the temples that is still not unattractive like Peter Jennings, Tom Brocaw, Jeff Daniels in the Newsroom and others. Sting had hair like this for ages. It seems not to interfere with growing hair long but the corner loss can add an illusion of wisdom and maturity.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Thanks Noah that's useful.
CPA also causes adrenal insufficiency, perhaps this helps too - idk? Squeeze that T... Maybe I should also add spironolactone to help with this effect?? Lol... 0T

@Janey - The back door thing I keep refering too is the alternative pathways to DHT that might not be blocked with just an 5ari
I gotcha. I usually have been referring to that as DHT synthesization but more so with respect to tissue. I am semi-convinced that beard removal destroys the backdoor pathways in the face related to beard growth. I am also wondering if they might be signalling between tissue that is known to suffer from DHT effects primarily, meaning above the neck. I have had a completely different feminization story below the neck which came easy and without my ever worrying about it and above the neck, where facial feminization and hair growth were lagging. At the time that my breasts were all but fully formed, I had seen scant regrowth until after my spironolactone shed but up to then, like most of the guys on here, I was using piddling amounts of estrogen. I found spironolactone to be very hard and fatiguing on the body.

I think about trying bica as much as anything to report back on it but while things are on the upswing it makes little sense to me to do it. I have been trying oral minoxidil for ten days with about ten pounds of weight gain which I hope is simply water. I am also monitoring the area under my eyes because I don't want dark circles and I might be seeing artifacts.

I am very interested in others using oral minoxidil especially liquid minoxidil. I do find the self-research of all of this fascinating sort of like Dr. Jekyll in Stevenson.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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i switched from 4mg E to 100mg progesterone and 2mg E ten days ago
Swallowed prometrium? Most say that not enough makes it through the liver. For those who don't know about prometrium, it is sold in little spherical pills that are soft capsules. It can be fun teasing the gals who think that using it in unusual places helps grow big boobs which I do not believe at all. The little pills look like High-Ho Cherry-O pieces and will roll off the crack of the *** like a ski slope if one misses the target and then all the way across the room and under the bed where you will be on your hands and knees with one's rear in the air looking for them. MtFs will do anything for a fine set of bodacious ta-tas.

MtF sites tend to be very dour and the folks often seem to lack any sense of humor and that is not me. There is a palpable sense of dread about not doing HRT "right" in terms of "results". HRT generally if not always works fine. People just are unhappy in that it is much less pervasive in results than people realize, especially those past the age of puberty who haven't been on puberty blockers.

It seems that one should be able to use them buccally by piercing them with one's eye teeth. I tried it once and it was not tasty and I have not heard much at all about buccal use of prometrium compared to swallowing them and using them rectally.

Everyone disses on medroxyprogesterone but it is quite available after swallowing and it can also be used essentially as an AA at levels above 20 mg daily. I am taking about 10 mg daily but I forget to use it or pick up the prescription for days at a time and I don't think that provera is very important to the HRT feminization process unless used as an AA. The effects of progestins and progesterone and their importance to feminization and/or regrowth of hair is argued about frequently to no real effect in terms of the science indicating much benefit at all. Some folks claim that topical progesterone on hair, face and breasts aid in feminization but eh, I am not sure that we have good evidence hair-wise for anything, in terms of hair restoration/improvement except for the big three estrogens, although there are other varieties that are far less studied. Premarin is very interesting in this aspect and it has apparently serms within it and also more powerful horse estrogens. I certainly had good results from low amounts of Premarin in terms of body feminization but not as much facially or hair-wise.

I would like to know more about 2nd pass effects from estrogens no longer commonly used like synthetic versions which are much stronger mg for mg.
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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It could be, i never did extensive research on the adrenal glands contribution to DHT conversion so I can’t comment on it much. I know CPA+Bicalutamide counter eachother and cause problems (in my own body at least), ikarus reported the same issue. CPA+Spironolactone might behave differently since they are both steroidal, i never tried them together. If you try it look out for things like the occurrence of acne / oil production where there was none previously & let me know how it goes.
The adrenal aspect tends to be emphasize for MtFs who undergo some form of physical castration, surgical or SRS where the feeling is that testosterone can actually be too low or very low and yet there still are DHT effects if I follow the discourse properly. I don't that is the road for many MtFs in relative terms any longer because so many non-binary folks want to retain the ability to be sexual in a male context.
 

Junely

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Figured I'd post my progress here since this thread inspired me to even start HRT/transitioning. My hairline is slowly improving but my overall density is staying absolute trash. Really praying for my density to fill in cause I'm really worried about it, not so much worried about hairline since I'll get FFS / hair transplant.

6mg estrofem (3 times a day at random times due to my shitty work/sleep schedule so not really optimised), 50mg bica, 1.25mg finasteride daily; nizoral 5%, dermaroll 1.5mm once a week but I must not be doing it right cause its only sore for a few hours afterwards whereas other people report it hurting for day(s). Dermapen in the mail so hopefully fixing that soon.
sdfsd.png
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I am wondering if folks have any thoughts about cellulite. Many MtFs actually like cellulite as it is an all but universal (80% to 90%) female artifact. Cellulite is also interesting in that it is a type of collagen issue related to a change or deterioration in the lattice pattern normally found in skin. In this sense, it might respond well for those seeking to eliminate it but either derma-rolling or via mechanical massage. I don't like the perfect hair health massages but scalp massage with a mechanical Shibari-type device might be easier than either derma-rolling or harsh massages that seek to bring the sides of the hair towards the middle:


I think that cellulite might be relevant in that it is a highly sexually-dimorphic trait that appears to come on when hormonal levels of estrogen reach adult cis-female levels.
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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Wire brushing?

Has anyone tried wired brushing in place of derma-rolling or scalp massage? I seem to recall some news about folks claiming success with using a wire brush for approximately five minutes a day but maybe this is for balding scalp. It seems awfully harsh to longer hair but soft bristle brushing, at least up to some point seems healthy.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Figured I'd post my progress here since this thread inspired me to even start HRT/transitioning. My hairline is slowly improving but my overall density is staying absolute trash. Really praying for my density to fill in cause I'm really worried about it, not so much worried about hairline since I'll get FFS / hair transplant.

6mg estrofem (3 times a day at random times due to my shitty work/sleep schedule so not really optimised), 50mg bica, 1.25mg finasteride daily; nizoral 5%, dermaroll 1.5mm once a week but I must not be doing it right cause its only sore for a few hours afterwards whereas other people report it hurting for day(s). Dermapen in the mail so hopefully fixing that soon.View attachment 149181
In my opinion, you are on the best regimen possible from what I have seen and observed. For some reason very few seem to be going single-shot on estradiol and I continue to believe that that is essentially always the best regimen. The whole reason that people use AA's appears to be quite dated from what the history of HRT indicates. When people were only swallowing tablets and using either synthetics or CEE's, there was a marked increase in liver issues. Therefore, physicians were quite wary and stingy in terms of how much Premarin/Ethinylestradiol they were willing to prescribe. Hence, the theory is that circulating levels of estrogen were not enough to reverse calcification/fibrosis of dormant follicles without adding an AA/Progestin:

and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinylestradiol

These liver issues seem to be remote for people swallowing pure estradiol and many/most now seem to be using much safer ingestion methods such as parenteral methods like injections, the patch, estrogel, and now buccal and sublingual dosing is safe and efficient as well while being perhaps the least convenient method of all, but quite cheap in cost. In my opinion, swallowing E2 pills remains the gold standard in terms of price and efficacy and convenience. The patch might be the best method for those who don't care about price and the slight inconvience of their wrinkling; this is what I am using now @ 2 Climara 100's weekly but I would go to estrofem without hesitation once I worry less about maintaining targets and so long as the psychological feelings continue to be good, i.e. nice estrogen high and higher, better but different libido. Injections are best for micro-managers, although I personally doubt monitoring prolactin, DHT, estrone, SBHG or anything but T and E really provides profitable information. MtFs also have hormonal issues related to the psychological effects of estrogen in that they often act similarly to SSRI's for many of us which might call for even higher levels of estrogen.

I think that the higher the levels of estrogen used/circulating, the better the hair growth without exception. The spanner in the works is that high levels of estrogen at least during the initial stages of HRT seem to halt breast growth. This is the article that I have basically been using to inform myself related to AA's, which may be needed by some MtFs, and pure estradiol which is probably all that most need:

In terms of micro-needling, I have done so similarly to you. What I have found in my case is that the longer mm needles work far better and are likely to cause distress to the scalp that is much less severe and which fully heals in 8 to 12 hours. The extra length makes it so I don't have to press so hard and for people like you and me with hair that is fairly long but with diffuse thinning, you can micro-needle everything, the entire scalp without blood or excess inflammation. Derma-rolling to me, appears to require personal bio-feedback and one shouldn't go by the results of others in terms of inflammation or pseudo-damage done to the top two skin levels. The longer needles also seem to help me be done in five minutes or so, or even two minutes really. Doing it more often with less damage appears to be a viable hair regrowth path as well according to what I have seen on youtube.
 
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Androgenic Alpaca

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Figured I'd post my progress here since this thread inspired me to even start HRT/transitioning. My hairline is slowly improving but my overall density is staying absolute trash. Really praying for my density to fill in cause I'm really worried about it, not so much worried about hairline since I'll get FFS / hair transplant.

6mg estrofem (3 times a day at random times due to my shitty work/sleep schedule so not really optimised), 50mg bica, 1.25mg finasteride daily; nizoral 5%, dermaroll 1.5mm once a week but I must not be doing it right cause its only sore for a few hours afterwards whereas other people report it hurting for day(s). Dermapen in the mail so hopefully fixing that soon.View attachment 149181
Solid results so far. Hair regrowth takes a lot of time - how long have you been on your regimen? And any particular reason you're not using minoxidil?
 

John Difool

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What's good for hrt is not necessarily good for hair. You can try Bica 50mg, CPA 12.5mg, spironolactone 100mg bid while on E2. E2 is essential.

Levels to measure: T, E2, DHEA, SHBG, P4 and DHT. Free T & E2 can be calculated with good precision out of SHBG and total T and E2 respectively. That saves money. Keep doing blood work monthly while you adjust dosages. More bioidentical E2 should take precedence over increasing AA for safety reasons. You can combo spironolactone and CPA while building your E2 levels (but should drop it asap) and taking Duta to help with hairloss if DHT is still high (don't bother with Fina). Don't switch drugs abruptly unless you enjoy shedding. You can't correlate T levels while taking spironolactone or Bica (only CPA lowers T) but you can check DHEA-S for adrenal activity. Too low T will transform you into a zombie so keep enough while you target DHT undetectable level. Then drop Duta. Then AA after a few checks.

Don't forget supplements to combat hair shed and keep skin healthy. Topical E2 on scalp also helps a lot but it's important to keep skin hydrated because Ethanol will cause hair strands to dry up and break (after all you are doing all of this to get nice looking hair not just a stainless sponge looking mane on your head. I use collagen, cholesterol and ceramides mid day while I apply Estrogel 6 hours before and after. Essential oils are also a cheap way to keep an healthy skin. E2 & P4 are magical on face. I stopped apply it on scalp and taking it oral because lack of evidence on its benefits. Tretinoid on face but I avoid touching hair follicles with that stuff some people reported hair loss while using it. Oral minoxidil only (spironolactone is a diuretic and helps with water retention.) Anedoctally my hormonal triggered shed stopped as soon as I poked my belly with peptides (GHK-Cu, TB-500, BPC-157, IGF-1, Biotin Tripeptide-1)
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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What's good for hrt is not necessarily good for hair. You can try Bica 50mg, CPA 12.5mg, spironolactone 100mg bid while on E2. E2 is essential.

Levels to measure: T, E2, DHEA, SHBG, P4 and DHT. Free T & E2 can be calculated with good precision out of SHBG and total T and E2 respectively. That saves money. Keep doing blood work monthly while you adjust dosages. More bioidentical E2 should take precedence over increasing AA for safety reasons. You can combo spironolactone and CPA while building your E2 levels (but should drop it asap) and taking Duta to help with hairloss if DHT is still high (don't bother with Fina). Don't switch drugs abruptly unless you enjoy shedding. You can't correlate T levels while taking spironolactone or Bica (only CPA lowers T) but you can check DHEA-S for adrenal activity. Too low T will transform you into a zombie so keep enough while you target DHT undetectable level. Then drop Duta. Then AA after a few checks.

Don't forget supplements to combat hair shed and keep skin healthy. Topical E2 on scalp also helps a lot but it's important to keep skin hydrated. I use collagen, cholesterol and ceramides mid day while I apply Estrogel 6 hours before and after. Essential oils are also a cheap way to keep an healthy skin. E2 & P4 are magical on face. I stopped apply it on scalp and taking it oral because lack of evidence on its benefits. Tretinoid on face but I avoid touching hair follicles with that stuff some people reported hair loss while using it. Oral minoxidil only (spironolactone is a diuretic and helps with water retention.) Anedoctally my hormonal triggered shed stopped as soon as I poked my belly with peptides (GHK-Cu, TB-500, BPC-157, IGF-1, Biotin Tripeptide-1)
This is way too complicated in my viewpoint for the vast majority of people. As you say, E2 is essential and perhaps nothing else. FtMs might use two ingestion methods, clitoral and injection but they basically only use testosterone or DHT if available. I don't see any reason why hair regrowth or HRT wouldn't work best in terms of convenience, cost, side-effects and results for hair as well using estrogen alone. I am literally in a hurry with a transition deadline coming up in terms of socialization so I am trying to maximize effects by adding retin-A, derma-rolling, oral minoxidil and large amounts of topical estrogel but I doubt that it is necessary in the longer run.

I already follow your posts but that is a remarkable list to keep track of. You are absolutely right about the mixed effects of AA's and this site along with my own experience with spironolactone hammered that home. AA's must only be used with extreme caution and respect for their systemic-wide jarring of hormones and they have, in my experience for more deleterious effects on strength than estradiol. The only reason why I might touch bica ceteris paribus would be because it seems to be by far be touted most of all for good hair results but all three AA's and certain progestins are likely to have similar effects when used in large enough amounts. I continue to believe that the hair effects of AA's are impure and often not indicative of any cosmetically significant regrowth similar to the restoration of cueball scalps when estrogen is part of the mix or the only medication used.

In a new age-y way, HRT to me related to feminization is about grace and seemless or at least semi-seemless change and it shouldn't be jarring to the system or cause mad hair sheds. MtFs however seem to change AA's willy-nilly and they are often also changing things that might not hurt results but when combined with AA's might be jarring such as changing injection methods or failing to titrate upwards and downwards careful. When HRT comes completely together, we can all agree that the results can be astonishing so at the time time, gingerly use is perhaps best but I am learning and ready along with everyone else.

Sexually dimorphic things like scalp hair, beard and body hair growth and breast growth might be very tightly integrated and difficult to adjust and we sort of know this already, since cis-females don't appear able to increase breast size or improve their hair using estrogen at least until they experience a significant reduction in circulating estrogen levels as they age or increased production when they become pregnant and that seems to be temporary and in the case of breasts, also something that combined with breast feeding can deflate the breasts post-pregnancy.

I think that cis-males are often fascinated by the science of this and comparing our MtF sites to FtM sites seems to highlight this. The MtF sites are swarming with gals who actually welcome complexity even when you factor in the DIY aspect.

Certainly, many/most MtFs never go to hormonal sites or necessarily question the credentials of their doctors and they might even accept that HRT has limitations but not on AskMtFHRT. I have learned lots but still nobody is increasing nipple size on purpose and I see little evidence that anything is different related to breast development. On hairlosstalk, if anything people are using much more suspect stuff to the point that it is fun to sort of make fun of ourselves. Not MtFs on their HRT sites. It is deadly serious and people pout if you tell them that there is no evidence that progesterone up the butt builds breasts. They will just stick more up there and I am willing to bet that many, many MtFs who do DIY use huge amounts of estrogen starting off, in excess of what is recommended and then spend years with the disturbing reality that "I hosed my breasts before they even started". Oh wait, I don't have to bet; there are currently multiple posts up like that along with the ones like, "Help. I started HRT 24 days ago and I don't see any difference." Aaaarggh. I can't take answering those anymore because they infuriate me.
 
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John Difool

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I am not trying to address the audience with low iq. When dealing with these things by yourself you need to learn and study hard. If these simple steps are to complicated for some folks then I suppose they are welcome to follow their endo and dermatologist advices. After all most do with variable success rates. I came disappointed and désillusioned with some parts of modern medicine practices. So I decided to invest my time in this. I am sharing if someone feels the same about it and had similar experience and goals. I have tons of powders in my freezer I tried and discarded. I just want to avoid others willing to invest to make the same mistakes.
 
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John Difool

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RetinA unproven. Try Progesterone topical instead. Large amounts of E2? Lol. If only this was the answer... SHH and Wnt signaling are the bomb when added to PGE2 & SW. Vellus goes terminal at light speed (thanks @pegasus2) That stuff got me back on track in no time. You want to accelerate things: get HGH & IGF peptides and start scalp injections. You have extra money add TB-500.

Ymmv!
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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I am not trying to address the audience with low iq. When dealing with these things by yourself you need to learn and study hard. If these simple steps are to complicated for some folks then I suppose they are welcome to follow their endo and dermatologist advices. After all most do with variable success rates. I came disappointed and désillusioned with some parts of modern medicine practices. So I decided to invest my time in this. I am sharing if someone feels the same about it and had similar experience and goals. I have tons of powders in my freezer I tried and discarded. I just want to avoid others willing to invest to make the same mistakes.
Nobody is saying differently but it seems impossible to replicate for others. Even adding one or another in the wrong order might be counterproductive as I often wonder when I see multiple stacks of things not scientifically shown to be efficacious at the margin.

The same thing with powers. What if I switch form buccal too soon or too late or my estrone levels are off or I switch too late with injections or I don't added my estrone booster pills? Is IV'ing progesterone better or is provera actually more effective just less healthy in the long run? How about boron? It goes on and on without even the most minimal pictoral evidence or data compilation except Dr. Powers says or conjectures, and people eat it up. Even for extreme measures, I think that most can probably handle best say, a reductase inhibitor, minoxidil, a dandruff shampoo/keto, an AA and estrogen. Once one gets into different estrogen ingestion methods, complexity goes up greatly and then people get into spikes, troughs and peaks and steady state and half-lives, all of which probably matter for the psychological effects but probably in my viewpoint, not at all for hair growth. None of this is generally compiled data-wise or in terms of order of addition and so forth but I am a guinea pig and if I am convinced that E2 only isn't enough, then I will probably add bica, which I might also do if I have some other reason for lowering estrogen amounts since that can emulate in some ways the E2 only experience.

But I stand in the way of no one and encourage all exploration. At the same time, those of us who find simpler is better have a story to tell as well to the extent that anecdotal experiences are helpful which in the field of HRT, they appear often not to be and non-replicable.
 
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