Topical Dutasteride Case Assessment Thread

[sonictemples]

These guys also tried topical duta

https://calvizie.net/forum/threads/dutasteride-topica.30297/

https://calvizie.net/forum/threads/dutasteride-topica.39651/

@badhabiz says they still got sides.

It's not liposomal tho

 

[corkmeister]

Well, the theory is that topical duta is less likely to go systemic than topical finasteride due to its particle size or something like that.

Sure would be nice to see a large study on topical application at the dose and frequency of application you'd use in the actual treatment with DHT levels measured at the end. And a long study, to account for accumulation.

But that's wishful thinking, it seems like.

I spent the last couple of days reading up on the human scalp and transdermal penetration. The more I learn about it, the more I doubt the whole particle theory thing. If it doesn't penetrate the stratum corneum due to its mollecular size (which I'm not sure is actually the case here, I've seen the 500 Dalton rule mentioned but it's not presented as a hard limit) then I don't see how it's having any effect. On the other hand, if it does penetrate the stratum corneum, I'm sure it'll have effect but I don't see how you could avoid systemic absorption at that point. Blood vessels start appearing relatively 'high-up' in the skin. The stratum corneum is the main barrier, so it seems to me that if it can get past that, it can get through the rest of the skin.

And I was just reading an article on dutasteride and from what I understand, it has a non-linear halflife. It's around 5 weeks at high doses, but at smaller dosages, the halflife is actually much much shorter. So that casts more doubt on the idea that a (relatively) minor dose every 3 months could be sufficient.

And yes I totally agree, a larger and more intricate study on this would be great. Sometimes I wish we had an actual lab and resources at our disposal. In reality we'd probably just end up arguing about finasteride side effects and bashing each others brains in, but a man can dream.

 

[Orwell]

I spent the last couple of days reading up on the human scalp and transdermal penetration. The more I learn about it, the more I doubt the whole particle theory thing. If it doesn't penetrate the stratum corneum due to its mollecular size (which I'm not sure is actually the case here, I've seen the 500 Dalton rule mentioned but it's not presented as a hard limit) then I don't see how it's having any effect. On the other hand, if it does penetrate the stratum corneum, I'm sure it'll have effect but I don't see how you could avoid systemic absorption at that point. Blood vessels start appearing relatively 'high-up' in the skin. The stratum corneum is the main barrier, so it seems to me that if it can get past that, it can get through the rest of the skin.

And I was just reading an article on dutasteride and from what I understand, it has a non-linear halflife. It's around 5 weeks at high doses, but at smaller dosages, the halflife is actually much much shorter. So that casts more doubt on the idea that a (relatively) minor dose every 3 months could be sufficient.

And yes I totally agree, a larger and more intricate study on this would be great. Sometimes I wish we had an actual lab and resources at our disposal. In reality we'd probably just end up arguing about finasteride side effects and bashing each others brains in, but a man can dream.

Wouldn't that add weight to Mustang's preferred topical application frequency of every 7-15 days?

 

[corkmeister]

Wouldn't that add weight to Mustang's preferred topical application frequency of every 7-15 days?

It's much more likely to be an appropriate dose than once every three months (even if it's mesotherapy), or that's how it seems to me. But honestly, I really have no idea. With shorter dosage frequencies the risk of accumulation increases, because you're possibly re-dosing with dutasteride still in your system.

It's not liposomal tho

Liposomal solutions sound great on paper and if these solutions are able to prevent (most, if not all) systemic absorption compared to solutions with traditional vehicles then that would of course solve the problem of side effects. But at the same time, I'm far from sure that the liposomal solutions we have at our disposal, work as we read about them in studies. Most, if not all liposomal finasteride/dutasteride solutions I've read about seem to originate from Farmacia Parati. Transdermal drug delivery is really complicated (way more than I thought, anyway) and it's not just a matter of combining any drug with a bunch of liposomes. I'm not sure if it's something that a random pharmacy in Italy (or any other small-scale pharmacy or operation, for that matter) is able to do correctly and effectively (at the level of quality that we need it to be, because we want very little systemic absorption with this drug).

 

[sonictemples]

It's much more likely to be an appropriate dose than once every three months (even if it's mesotherapy), or that's how it seems to me. But honestly, I really have no idea. With shorter dosage frequencies the risk of accumulation increases, because you're possibly re-dosing with dutasteride still in your system.



Liposomal solutions sound great on paper and if these solutions are able to prevent (most, if not all) systemic absorption compared to solutions with traditional vehicles then that would of course solve the problem of side effects. But at the same time, I'm far from sure that the liposomal solutions we have at our disposal, work as we read about them in studies. Most, if not all liposomal finasteride/dutasteride solutions I've read about seem to originate from Farmacia Parati. Transdermal drug delivery is really complicated (way more than I thought, anyway) and it's not just a matter of combining any drug with a bunch of liposomes. I'm not sure if it's something that a random pharmacy in Italy (or any other small-scale pharmacy or operation, for that matter) is able to do correctly and effectively (at the level of quality that we need it to be, because we want very little systemic absorption with this drug).

Seems to do so on Mustang. On the other hand lipo finasteride is always a disappointment.

 

[FCKW36]

I can ship you a bottle to test from Europe

Hey, I live in Europe too. Inread the whole thread but I couldn't find out which liposomal Dutasteride you are using. Is it custom made and where can you get it?

 

[The_Dragon]

I'm also struggling to find anything for the UK, I can't even seem to find anything mentioned from the companies mentioned here :/. According to @jazz1 https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...asteride-minoxidil-mixture-check-here.128666/ it is available by Murray Avenue Apothecary, but through a prescription provided by http://www.medicalwellnesscenter.com/ but that site sure looks like it was made in the 90s. It's also only 0.05% and applied daily as opposed to the 1% weekly Mustang is using. There's also no mention of price, and nothing on Murray site mentions topical dustasteride either. Anyone else used these guys? Any tips on other places would be greatly appreciated too .

Edit: So seems that place is legit, now it's just a case of whether daily use at a low percentage is comparable. Also not sure if is liposomal

 

[Orwell]

I'm also struggling to find anything for the UK, I can't even seem to find anything mentioned from the companies mentioned here :/. According to @jazz1 https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...asteride-minoxidil-mixture-check-here.128666/ it is available by Murray Avenue Apothecary, but through a prescription provided by http://www.medicalwellnesscenter.com/ but that site sure looks like it was made in the 90s. It's also only 0.05% and applied daily as opposed to the 1% weekly Mustang is using. There's also no mention of price, and nothing on Murray site mentions topical dustasteride either. Anyone else used these guys? Any tips on other places would be greatly appreciated too .

Edit: So seems that place is legit, now it's just a case of whether daily use at a low percentage is comparable.

I would try getting it from Parati through either Dr Mwamba or Lupanzula. You can't have an online consultation for topical duta with Dr Lupanzula (he likes to examine his patients in person even when you can clearly see miniaturisation in images) but can with Dr Mwamba. I called his clinic. Or you can ask Mustang?

 

[Mustang]

I can ask Dr Mwamba or I can send you a bottle
Like I said before, I have 10 bottles that I can send to forum members to test it.
You can PM if you want one

 

[badhabiz]

These guys also tried topical duta

https://calvizie.net/forum/threads/dutasteride-topica.30297/

https://calvizie.net/forum/threads/dutasteride-topica.39651/

@badhabiz says they still got sides.

im not saying you have to experience sides, im saying it will penetrate and i dont know how we can dispute about this
molecular weight, as mentioned before by many people, is a small factor not a wall.

 

[sonictemples]

Maybe liposomal topical duta is enough to not go systemic.

There is only one way to see, a lot of people should try it

 

[Dimitri001]

There is only one way to see, a lot of people should try it

We won't even really know for sure then because of nocebo (unless like 100 ppl try it and get no sides). Studies have shown that if you tell ppl you give finasteride about the sides you get more sides than if you don't tell them - only way to control for nocebo is to have a control group. But I guess it's better than nothing if we had a few dozen ppl try it.

Shame that it hasn't been studied.

 

[corkmeister]

We won't even really know for sure then because of nocebo (unless like 100 ppl try it and get no sides). Studies have shown that if you tell ppl you give finasteride about the sides you get more sides than if you don't tell them - only way to control for nocebo is to have a control group. But I guess it's better than nothing if we had a few dozen ppl try it.

Shame that it hasn't been studied.

You raise a good point, of course, however: this is much less of a problem if the people trying it out get their hormone levels tested before and after taking it. We're not so much concerned whether people experience side effects (which is/may be subjective) but rather whether it systemically inhibits dht, and if so, by how much. This is something that can be objectively measured.

I do agree that it's worth investigating further. But the idea that none of it goes systemic, all due to some liposomal solution provided by an obscure Italian pharmacy is too-far fetched for me to accept. It would be a huge breakthrough in medicine (not only for male pattern baldness) if that turned out to be the case. However, I would be very interested in finding out how much of it goes systemic in comparison to a solution with a traditional vehicle. If that amount is significantly less, we might be able to figure out a dosing scheme that inhibits scalp dht with minimal systemic effects. Although figuring that out would probably require an actual study: most of what we're doing here is pure guesswork, educated guesswork at best. There are just so many unknown variables.

 

[badhabiz]

Maybe liposomal topical duta is enough to not go systemic.

im sorry but its against science so i would love to know how

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4818067/

 

[Dimitri001]

You raise a good point, of course, however: this is much less of a problem if the people trying it out get their hormone levels tested before and after taking it. We're not so much concerned whether people experience side effects (which is/may be subjective) but rather whether it systemically inhibits dht, and if so, by how much. This is something that can be objectively measured.

Very good point!

However I wonder whether nocebo can even impact hormone levels lol. I've heard some crazy placebo stories. But certainly it would be a useful test to do, because if we see dramatically lowered levels, maybe we can't be sure whether it's due to nocebo or "real," but if we see minimally altered levels, then we know we're good.

Anyone willing to subject themselves to this for the good of The Community and The Cause?

 

[blub10]

where do you get that dosage?
consider that 0.1 its 1mg of fina per 1ml...you take 10 times that dosage

I got it from Dr. L*panzula (1%)
Dr. M*amba recommended to use 2.5%

No idea where they got that from. I switched down and tested 0.01% but still got same very quickly

 

[blub10]

Yes, I had the same sides with finasteride as well (topical)
Even at 0.05%
Not with Dutasteride

I can confirm this also with 0.05% topical fina. I tried different dosages. Nothing for me

 

[blub10]

I have tried stem cells injections, minoxidil, PRP, mesotherapy, oral minoxidil (loniten), RU, finasteride, dutasteride, topical finasteride and topical dutasteride, dermarolling, saw palmetto, topical saw palmetto, laser cap, dutasteride mesotherapy and probably many other things the past 15 years.

The 4 things that made the greatest difference on my male pattern baldness were:

1) Oral Minoxidil. You grow hair like a Lion. Side effects are bad, it's a powerful med for high blood pressure. I naturally have very low blood pressure, not for me.
2) Dutasteride Mesotherapy. Once every 15 days. 2mm deep. 2ML of Dutasteride. Using a dermapen.
3) Topical Dutasteride. Stopped my hair loss cold. No sides.
4) Dermarolling. It really works.

What did not work or had too many side effects

1) Oral finasteride and dutasteride, side effects were bad
2) Topical finasteride, same sides as oral
3) PRP, did nothing
4) Stem cells did nothing
5) Saw Palmetto, nada
6) Biotin, vitamins, scalp massages

What worked moderately

1) Laser Cap. It did thicken my hair, still use it 3 times a week.
2) RU, hard to tell as I have no hair loss on topical dutasteride and have none since stopping RU.

Which Laser Cap did you use?
Did you test topical minoxidil? I have very low blood pressure myself and had to stop it quickly due to sides
Do you use Ket?

 

[corkmeister]

Very good point!

However I wonder whether nocebo can even impact hormone levels lol. I've heard some crazy placebo stories. But certainly it would be a useful test to do, because if we see dramatically lowered levels, maybe we can't be sure whether it's due to nocebo or "real," but if we see minimally altered levels, then we know we're good.

Anyone willing to subject themselves to this for the good of The Community and The Cause?

There's no way you can nocebo your hormone levels down to negligible levels, don't worry. But another obstacle would be that even if it hormone levels aren't significantly lowered, we still don't know whether it's actually inhibiting scalp dht or if it's just having no effect altogether. But at least if you know it's not going systemic, you can just wait and see if you notice improvement or a decrease in shedding.

I'd love to find out either way though, but I'm hesitant to try it myself for obvious reasons.

I got it from Dr. L*panzula (1%)
Dr. M*amba recommended to use 2.5%

No idea where they got that from. I switched down and tested 0.01% but still got same very quickly

These dosages seem insane to me by the way. That's 25mg of dutasteride per ml, right? These liposomes had better be preventing all systemic absorption at that dose, or you're getting a shitload of dutasteride in your blood. How often do they recommend to apply it?

 

[blub10]

Mustang how often and Deep do you Roll?

Do you use a dermaroller or Dermapen?