Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

DammitLetMeIn

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Why is IGF-1 and IGFB-3 important in Diabetes Mellitus and Androgenetic Alopecia?

Well, a number of reasons; firstly, steroid hormones are affected enormously just based on the types of foods we eat. Even processed dairy increases circulating IGF-1. Secondly, another element is refined vegetable oils, which increase levels of the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. Third, there is another, that being environmental estrogens, also known as xenoestrogens. One example of a xenoestrogen is Bisphenol-A, which is found in the plastic of water bottles. Just ten micrograms of this substance can induce diabetes in small animals. So, you can see there is an estrogen component here. Additionally, trans-fats and many types of vegetable oils increase levels of estrogen.
 

DammitLetMeIn

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Help me understand this; what you are saying is that many modern processed foods contribute to both diabetes and genetic hair loss. How exactly are these foods causing hair loss or even diabetes for that matter?

As I stated, refined grains, starches, sugars, processed dairy and even processed vegetable oils do the following: They increase IGF-1, lower IGFBP-3, increase enzyme levels of 5-alpha reductase. In addition, these foods promote a cascade of inflammatory compounds, while at the same time, diminish protective anti-inflammatory compounds. To put it another way, increasing Insulin Growth Factor-1 stimulates the production of androgens, the bacteria is affected by our diet as well, and poor ratio of such bacteria (good versus bad bacteria) can influence the production of steroid hormones. Refined starches, grains and sugars promote inflammation; they also increase the presence of microbial growth, which of itself promotes micro inflammation. As far as IGFBP-3 is concerned, too little of this causes an adverse situation with proteins involved with healthy cell destruction and survival. For example, a health level of IGFBP-3 will spare healthy cells of programmed cell death or apoptosis, while initiating apoptotic effects on unhealthy cells like cancer. In male pattern baldness, lower levels of IGFBP-3 will increase levels of the protein Bax (a protein that can destroy hair follicles), while decreasing the protective protein, Bcl-2.
 

docj077

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DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
Here's the problem that I have with everything that you're saying. In men with male pattern baldness the negative feedback mechanisms that normally govern hormone levels do not seem to be in place.).

They're not being ALLOWED to be put back into place. Its too much for the body to achieve when the diet is working against it.
Negative feedback mechanisms have existed in mankind for a lot longer than mankind's current dietary choices. Feedback mechanisms trump anything that diet can throw at them.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
This seems to be occurring in the majority of men with male pattern baldness. Whether it be a decrease in SHBG or an increase in IGF-1, the answer can not be with diet. It simply can not be, because if there is a lack of regulation, then the problem is genetic..).

Wrong. Genetics may play some part but it is the diet which governs levels of hormones.

No, diet can upregulate an already genetically based process. You have no proof otherwise, because you have not adequately proven that there is a difference between hormonal regulation in men with male pattern baldness vs. men without male pattern baldness at the genetic level.


DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
"Hormonal imbalance" is not something that can be achieved through diet and it is obvious from studies that there is a genetic link as families with men with male pattern baldness have a higher chance of having women with PCOS...).

And it is also known that people from these families have an intolerance for high insulin and its growth like factors. ( i can show you studies if you like).

That's right. So, the problem is inherited as it stays within families and moves from generation to generation. That's the very definition of a genetic disorder. Poor regulation of hormones and all other factors is clearly based upon genetic predisposition to the problem.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
That means that the predisposition towards imbalance is inherited. It also means that changing diet can not signficiantly alter hormonal concentrations enough to allow for balance to return.

This is WRONG. PCOS women can return to health via control of their diet. And YES diet CAN alter hormonal concentrations enough.

No, women with PCOS require medication in order to regain control of their health and the majority require weight loss drugs. That's not what you consider to be dietary modifications. Simply adjusting a woman's diet does not restore her fertility. If you did any research, you'd understand this fact.


DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
That was made very obvious by the differing levels of hormones and SHBG that are observed men with and men without male pattern baldness.

Its not hard to alter SHBG levels. All you have to do is either raise or take down your insulin through diet.

Nope, you make the patient either hyper- or hypoglycemic by altering the body's insulin levels. Making someone hypoglycemic to increase SHBG will cause brain damage and allowing a patient to go hyperglycemic will encourage glycosylation of proteins and tissue damage. There is no possible way that changing insulin levels through diet will allow a big enough shift insulin levels to change SHBG without causing serious physiological harm to the patient.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
Any imbalance observed in studies is genetic, the mutation in the androgen receptor is genetic, and male pattern baldness is genetic..

This is merely OPINION. Yes, male pattern baldness has a genetic element just like everything but it is the environment whic provides the triggers.

This is fact and backed by countless studies.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
Altering environmental factors will not change the outcome as there is nothing that a person can do through diet or exercise that will lower androgens or any other factor enough to prevent or reverse male pattern baldness...

This is inaccurate. Lowering IGF-1 will interfere with the conversion from T to DHT.

No, the conversion of testosterone will take place regardless of the concentration of IGF-1. Lowering IGF-1 is a physiological disaster and is impossible to maintain as the adverse effects would be detrimental. The conversion is required and sustained through andropause and into old age. Obviously, the only way to stop the process is to inhibit the enzyme itself.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
You must remove 65% of the function of 5-alpha reductase type II just to maintain or regrow hair....

This is not strictly true.

Yes, it is true as that was the percent of DHT required for patients to regrow hair in the drug trials performed by the makers of finasteride. With that sort of inhibition, 2 out of every 3 men with maintain or regrow hair.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
Also, there are no studies that prove that decreasing IGF-1 levels with reverse male pattern baldness or allow men to maintain the hair they have currently.

No but there are studies which state that IGF-1 is at normal levels in non-balding people.

IGF-1 can also be at abnormal levels in people without male pattern baldness. Case and point are bodybuilders without male pattern baldness that take IGF-1 as a supplement religously.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
In a normal man without a defective androgen receptor the increase in IGF-1 in the serum will promote hirsutism..

Exactly - which is a sign of male pattern baldness.

Hirsutism is not a sign of male pattern baldness. Hirsutism is an abundance of hair growth.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
Decreasing IGF-1 in a man with male pattern baldness won't necessary do just the opposite and their is no evidence in the literature to allow such an assumption...

Well if IGF-1 is the triggering factor then its not such a bad assumption. Moreover, women who have hirutism who reduce IGF-1 actually remove their symtpoms.

But, their symptoms don't completely vanish, which proves that removal of IGF-1 from the system does not cause complete inhibition of its effects.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
That's why this whole thread is ridiculous and that's why even if there is a shred a truth to this whole thing we're simply wasting time, because trying to change it simply will not help male pattern baldness. ...

I TOTALLY disagree, and so does that guy Immortal Hair who has been researching hair loss since 1998 - longer than either you or I.

I've been researching and using hair loss treatments just as long. You continue to make assumptions about me.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
It may help the health of the patient, but it will not stop the action of androgens in the scalp....

Given that IGF-1 is said to create androgens via stimulating 5ar then reducing it would reduce/stop androgens in the scalp.

Really? Which 5AR enzyme does it stimulate? Where is this 5AR enzyme primarily located? Hwo does this correlate with hair patterning? I know the answers to all these questions. Let's see how much you know.


DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
IGF-1 will be there no matter what you do....

Yes but we can lower its level and the levels of its co-factors.

Plasma IGF-1 levels are raised for a reason in men with male pattern baldness. You need to find the reason before you change the process.

DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
and so will androgens unless you either reduce their potency by only allow testosterone to bind by reducing DHT or you prevent their binding all together by inhibiting the androgen receptor. Anything else is unhealthy. Especially, reducing IGF-1 levels enough to make a difference (which it likely wouldn't anyway).

According to Immortal Hair it will. According to the studies it will. According to Gabe Mirkin M.D. it will and the IGF-1 expert many others.

According to your inferior knowledge it won't. What makes you think you know more? You don't. These guys know their stuff and more research is being carried on in this area.

My inferior knowledge? Yes, a man with a website and a man with the same designation as me know more than me when one has no training and the other has the same training. <-That was sarcasm, by the way.


By the way, for a person that was completely downplaying the need for modern and westernized medicine earlier in this thread and others you sure seem to be using it as a crutch recently. In fact, I'm sort of unimpressed
 

DammitLetMeIn

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http://www.freewebs.com/immortalhair/interview2007.htm


Even ImmortalHair can see the influence of IGF-1. He has a lot of respect and has been researhing hair loss specifically for 9 years. Personally, I don't agree with his adovcacy of taking supplements but I do beleive that reducing insulin and not taking dairy products is a pretty good ide.a


Anyways, I don't think you'll ever be moved on the issue so I'm just going to put it out there for those who can see whats in front of them.
 

docj077

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DammitLetMeIn said:
http://www.freewebs.com/immortalhair/interview2007.htm


Even ImmortalHair can see the influence of IGF-1. He has a lot of respect and has been researhing hair loss specifically for 9 years. Personally, I don't agree with his adovcacy of taking supplements but I do beleive that reducing insulin and not taking dairy products is a pretty good ide.a


Anyways, I don't think you'll ever be moved on the issue so I'm just going to put it out there for those who can see whats in front of them.

You do that.
 

bobmer

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Yes, diet can influence hormonal thing-a-ma-jig.

Enlarged prostate glands have been associated with pattern hair loss(16). But male populations who consume high phytoestrogen diets have a reduced risk of prostate cancer development and progression(14).

14. Effects of a diet rich in phytoestrogens on prostate-specific antigen and sex hormones in men diagnosed with prostate cancer. Dalais FS, Meliala A, Wattanapenpaiboon N, Frydenberg M, Suter DA, Thomson WK, Wahlqvist ML.

16. Androgenetic alopecia and prostate cancer: findings from an Australian case-control study. Giles GG, Severi G, Sinclair R, English DR, McCredie MR, Johnson W, Boyle P, Hopper JL

Traditional beliefs in genetics and DNA died after the Human Genome Projoct concluded. Try Epigenetics. It has the potential to answer the paradoxes that besiege current (or past) beliefs in genetics.
 

DammitLetMeIn

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docj077 said:
Negative feedback mechanisms have existed in mankind for a lot longer than mankind's current dietary choices. Feedback mechanisms trump anything that diet can throw at them.

Negative feedback mechanisms can only work as well as they are allowed to work by their environment, i.e. diet.

docj077 said:
No, diet can upregulate an already genetically based process. You have no proof otherwise, because you have not adequately proven that there is a difference between hormonal regulation in men with male pattern baldness vs. men without male pattern baldness at the genetic level.

Diet CAN regulate hormones my friend. Just look at vegetarian diets. They reduce baseline levels of testosterone, increase SHBG - these are all long term impacts.

docj077 said:
That's right. So, the problem is inherited as it stays within families and moves from generation to generation. That's the very definition of a genetic disorder. Poor regulation of hormones and all other factors is clearly based upon genetic predisposition to the problem..

Yes a genetic PREDISPOSITION - that doesn't mean your going to see an expression of the condition. High Insulin/IGF-1 is the triggering factor without which the PCOS would never express itself - just like male pattern baldness.

docj077 said:
No, women with PCOS require medication in order to regain control of their health and the majority require weight loss drugs. That's not what you consider to be dietary modifications. Simply adjusting a woman's diet does not restore her fertility. If you did any research, you'd understand this fact. ..

YOU'RE WRONG. You're talking about medical research. There are oceans of patients out there who have have restored their fertility through diet.

docj077 said:
Nope, you make the patient either hyper- or hypoglycemic by altering the body's insulin levels. There is no possible way that changing insulin levels through diet will allow a big enough shift insulin levels to change SHBG without causing serious physiological harm to the patient...

YOU'RE CRAZY. Take an example of an obese man who is eatingbread constatnly every day. His insulin levels will be high. If he stops eating bread and begins eating loy-glycemic porridge - his insulin levels will lower. He won't die - far from it - he'll become healthier. If you're being pedantic over my use of the word insulin then don't bother.

docj077 said:
This is fact and backed by countless studies. ...

You can continue believing that male pattern baldness is wholly genetic if you like. YOu can lock yourself in that cocoon. There are many out there who KNOW differently.

High IGF-1/insulin is the trigger for expression of the gene. Think about it, it makes total sense. Insulin is implicated in the aging process.

docj077 said:
No, the conversion of testosterone will take place regardless of the concentration of IGF-1.....

It will take place but not to the same extent as IGF-1 has been proven to be the stimulator of 5-alpha reductase.

docj077 said:
Lowering IGF-1 is a physiological disaster and is impossible to maintain as the adverse effects would be detrimental......

I didn't say to create LOW levels of IGF-1. Stop twisting things I say to make them seem extreme. Its very childish and is impressing nobody.

Look, the idea is to stop IGF-1 levels in plasma from being elevated thereby reducing IGF-1 to NORMAL LEVELS. Theres a difference so stop being facetious.

docj077 said:
The conversion is required and sustained through andropause and into old age. Obviously, the only way to stop the process is to inhibit the enzyme itself. ....

Or inhibit stimulation of the enzyme by IGF-1.

docj077 said:
Yes, it is true as that was the percent of DHT required for patients to regrow hair in the drug trials performed by the makers of finasteride. With that sort of inhibition, 2 out of every 3 men with maintain or regrow hair. ....

Its true if all you are concerned with is inhibiting DHT by blocking 5ar. However, if you are lowering IGF-1 to normal levels there are many other co-factors involved in hair growth which will alter themselves to ensure that you may not need such a drastic drop in a lot of cases.

docj077 said:
IGF-1 can also be at abnormal levels in people without male pattern baldness. Case and point are bodybuilders without male pattern baldness that take IGF-1 as a supplement religously. ..

EXACTLY. and look at what happens to genetically pre-disposed bodybuilders when they start pumping iron - they lose hair. I have even seen websites which state that IGF-1 supplement side-effect is hair loss.

Lookhow many weights fanatics are on here and guys that come on saying they've had problems since they've started doing weights.

Excellent point.

docj077 said:
Hirsutism is not a sign of male pattern baldness. Hirsutism is an abundance of hair growth.
...

Hirutism is body hair growth and this is very often seen in people with male pattern baldness.

docj077 said:
But, their symptoms don't completely vanish, which proves that removal of IGF-1 from the system does not cause complete inhibition of its effects....

If their symptoms dont completely vanish its because they're still not getting their insulin low enough. Do you know how hard it is to stay on a low insulin diet. Try the RoseDale diet and you'll see what I mean.

Many of us are just not built for grain consumption.

docj077 said:
I've been researching and using hair loss treatments just as long. You continue to make assumptions about me.

Alright, you're 24. 9 years ago you would have been 15. If you were researching hair loss then, well...

moreover, you're vieew is constrained by Western Medicine. Even when presented by studies which show a different tack from current dogma, you are unable to open your mind to accept them.

docj077 said:
Really? Which 5AR enzyme does it stimulate? Where is this 5AR enzyme primarily located? Hwo does this correlate with hair patterning? I know the answers to all these questions. Let's see how much you know.....

The same 5ar enzyme referred to in the study with human scrotal skin. I am really not interested in a test of knowledge. thats really not going to help anyone get their hair back. It also won't prove anything.

I'm interested in the effects of elevated IGF-1 on the human scalp/5ar/and consequent hair loss.

docj077 said:
Plasma IGF-1 levels are raised for a reason in men with male pattern baldness. You need to find the reason before you change the process. ).

We KNOW the reason. Insulin is high. And even if by some stretch of your imagination this is not the reason we can STILL lower IGF-1 in plasma via lowering insulin.

docj077 said:
My inferior knowledge? Yes, a man with a website and a man with the same designation as me know more than me when one has no training and the other has the same training. <-That was sarcasm, by the way.

Gabe Mirkin MD is a qualified medic (something I presume you respect) - look at what he says.

The other guy who wrote an article about IGF-1 is an expert in the field- look at what he says about human balding.

Immortal Hair has been researching for 9 years - it is basically his life - he talks about supplements more than diet but HE STILL IMPLICATES IGF-1.

The doctor Kevin MD when asked about the role of IGF-1 even states there is confliciting information - if he can see it - why cant you.

What makes you think you know MORE than ALL these people who implicate the role of elevated IGF-1 in male pattern baldness???

I mean seriously, open your eyes.

docj077 said:
By the way, for a person that was completely downplaying the need for modern and westernized medicine earlier in this thread and others you sure seem to be using it as a crutch recently. In fact, I'm sort of unimpressed

Im using modern medicine because thats the ONLY language you understand. I was using alternative sources but you continued to disrespect these.

So I'm bringing it to you in YOUR preferred form. Even when I do you continue to pick holes where it is completely unnecessary to do so.

Surely, even on a health level you can see lower/normal insulin/IGF-1 is better.

You continue to thinkyou're right, when all these other people (including medics/experts and long time researchers) point out that you're wrong.
 

DammitLetMeIn

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Imma put this out there again:

Results: Men with higher levels of testosterone were more likely to have vertex baldness... In addition, for each 59ng/ml increase in IGF-1, the odds of having vertex baldness doubled...Those who were found to have higher circulating levels of SHBG were less likely to have dense hair on their chest...



EVERYONE SHOULD READ THAT.
 

DammitLetMeIn

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Now then…what about IGF-1 and hair growth/hair loss?

I called several doctors in town, and since I wasn’t their patient,
they wouldn’t discuss the issue even in hypothetical terms (poor
fellas have liability and malpractice issues to worry about, I really
can’t blame them for being reluctant).

My next step was to call my own physician and ask for a few minutes.
I quizzed him briefly on the uses of IGF-1, and he basically confirmed
the functions noted above. When the discussion moved to hair
loss/hair growth, he said that there wasn’t much research in that
area, and that he wasn’t very familiar with the research that was out
there. Not much help, but understandable. He’s a GP, and doesn’t
oversee hormone treatments – he sends patients off to the
endocrinologists for that.

He suggested that you make an appointment with your own physician to
discuss your concerns, preferably the one overseeing your use of
IGF-1, because s/he’ll be more familiar with your situation and your
specific needs.

My next step was to try to gather general information on the subject.
Researcher kevinmd pointed me to the following excellent answer he
wrote for you as a starting point in my investigations:

Growth hormone
http://answers.google.com/answers/main? ... &id=157723

In his answer, our Dr. Kevin notes that with respect to whether IGF-1
stimulates hair growth or promotes hair loss, there is no real
consensus. He cites the following two studies, one which points to
growth, one which points to loss:

Su HY, Hickford JG, Bickerstaffe R, Palmer BR. Insulin-like growth
factor 1 and hair growth. Dermatol Online J. 1999 Nov;5(2):1.

Signorello LB, Wuu J, Hsieh C, Tzonou A, Trichopoulos D, Mantzoros CS.
Hormones and hair patterning in men: a role for insulin-like growth
factor 1? J Am Acad Dermatol. 1999 Feb;40(2 Pt 1):200-3.

My next step was to contact my friend Jeff, an MD/PhD student at the
University of Michigan Medical School. Jeff’s main focus is cancer
research, so considering the attention growth hormones have been given
in conjunction with cancer, he seemed like the guy to ask.

In his response to me, Jeff noted:

“To: Maggie <maggie_sedai>
Subject: Re: Need Guidance!

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Maggie wrote:

> I have a customer who wants to know about IGF-1 and hair growth -
> specifically, if your IGF-1 level increases, do you grow more hair,
> and if it decreases, do you lose more? Or vice versa?
>
> Do you know any good articles I could read on the subject?

I've pulled two off of the U. Mich. library system and copied them to
my home directory, with the punchlines highlighted in red:

http://www.umich.edu [elided for Jeff’s privacy ]
http://www.umich.edu [elided for Jeff’s privacy ]

At first glance, answer seems to be there's not a whole lot of
research, but what there is suggests increased IGF-1 might possibly be
connected to vertex balding.â€

He went on to note that though research appeared sparse, there were
other avenues to try, and directed me to several other resources.
Though they were helpful in terms of confirming that research is
sparse and conflicting, I’m afraid they didn’t do much to
definitively answer that portion of your query.

Here are excerpts from the articles Jeff provided:

Occurrence of the male hair pattern is considered to be an
androgen-mediated process that depends on circulating testosterone and
dihydrotestosterone concentrations as well as on local conversion of
circulating testosterone to dihydrotestosterone in the skin (catalyzed
by the enzyme 5alpha-reductase). Our data confirm that there is a
stronger link between circulating testosterone and baldness, whereas
testosterone has a less obvious function in regulating the relatively
less androgen-dependent chest hair density. Androgen action stimulates
vellus hair to develop into coarse, pigmented hair on the body, but
prolonged exposure to androgen leads to regression to vellus hair and,
frequently, balding of the scalp. Little is known about the specific
function of SHBG or estradiol in male hair growth or hair loss, and
the results of our study, in this respect, must be replicated before a
credible conclusion can be reached. It is conceivable, however, that
high SHBG levels reduce the bioavailability of testosterone and thus
modulate its effect on hair patterning.

Our findings suggest that high levels of IGF-1 may be associated with
increased risk of vertex baldness. Substantial clinical evidence
appears to support this finding. The efficacy of testosterone
treatment on hair growth in children with hypopituitarism is enhanced
by GH, the effect of which is largely mediated through IGF-1. In
adults with hypogonadism, a combination of GH and gonadotropin
treatment improves testosterone secretion and reproductive function.
It has also been recently reported that GH treatment of GH-deficient
men increases hair scores in androgen-dependent areas. These effects
can be explained either by IGF-1 directly stimulating the androgen
receptor, or by IGF-1 increasing local 5alpha-reductase activity and
thus stimulating the local conversion of testosterone to
dihydrotestosterone. It has been postulated that IGF-1 modifies
post-receptor effectors of the androgen receptor, but this is not
clearly established.

[…]

In conclusion, we have found evidence that high levels of testosterone
and IGF-1 increase the likelihood of vertex baldness, whereas neither
of these hormones appears significantly or suggestively associated
with chest hair growth. SHBG is inversely associated with vertex
baldness as well as with chest hair growth, although the association
is significant only with respect to the latter. It appears that the
effect of SHBG, if genuine, could be explained by the involvement of
this compound in the modulation of bioavailability of testosterone.â€

Hormones and hair patterning in men: A role for insulin-like growth
factor 1?
Lisa B. Signorello, Joanne Wuub, Chung-cheng Hsiehb, Anastasia
Tzonouc, Dimitrios Trichopoulos, Christos S. Mantzoros
Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology
Volume 40 • Number 2 • February 1999
Copyright © 1999 American Academy of Dermatology, Inc.


“We observed that middle-aged and elderly men who reported modest to
substantial vertex balding at age 45 have lower circulating levels of
IGFBP-3 and higher levels of IGF-1 when controlling for IGFBP-3 level.
Growth factors are beginning to emerge as contributors to hair growth
and loss. IGF-1 is an abundant endocrine, paracrine, and autocrine
growth control factor that promotes proliferative activity in
epithelial and mesenchymal cells in numerous organ systems, including
the hair organ.â€

[…]


“In the hair organ, IGF-1 is produced by connective tissue
constituents,10 and IGF-1 gene expression is enhanced by androgens.11
In androgen-responsive tissue, IGF-1 may act locally to positively
mediate the induction of 5-reductase by dihydrotestosterone.12 This
action of IGF-1 may be consequential for the development of balding
because conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone in the scalp
by 5-reductase type 2 is essential for androgenetic alopecia.13
Indeed, oral 5-reductase type 2 inhibitors are now used to prevent
further hair loss and to induce hair regrowth in men with male pattern
balding.13 Experimental administration of the 5-reductase type 2
inhibitor finasteride results in diminished expression of IGF-1 and
its receptor and enhanced expression of IGFBP-3 in the rat prostate,
an androgen-dependent tissue.14 IGFBP-3 is the major carrier protein
that modulates the bioavailability of IGF-115 and thus may also be a
regulator of mediators of hair growth and cycle control. Our findings
are compatible with both the direct association of IGF-1 and the
modulating effect of IGFBP-3 on male pattern balding.â€

[…]

“Misclassification of hair loss is possible because of self-assessment
of hair pattern up to 36 years in the past. However, there was little
correlation (r = 0.04) between age at blood draw (approximately 2
years after self-report on hair pattern) and balding at age 45,
suggesting that systematic underestimation or overestimation of the
extent of vertex balding by elderly compared with middle-aged
participants was not extensive.

The association between IGF-1 and vertex balding was only evident in
our study after adjusting for IGFBP-3, and the magnitude of the
association for IGF-1 adjusted for IGFBP-3 was not as great as shown
for IGF-1 by Signorello et al.2 Differences in the two studies that
might contribute to the disparity in the strength of the association
between IGF-1 and vertex balding include different IGF-1 assays, older
average age in the Greek study, interviewer-assessed balding in the
Greek study versus self-report in our study, and IGF-1 and balding
assessed concurrently in the Greek study versus 2 to 36 years apart in
our study. In the Greek study, adjustment for sex hormones and sex
hormone-binding globulin enhanced the risk of vertex balding
associated with IGF-1. Although not presented here because of possible
noncomparability of hormone data among the 3 samples that we included
in this analysis, adjustment for sex steroids and sex hormone-binding
globulin did not appear to alter our estimates for the relation of
vertex balding with IGF-1 or IGFBP-3. Despite these methodologic and
population differences between the two studies, both the study in
elderly Greek men2 and our study indicate that the IGF-1 axis may be
important in male pattern hair loss.â€

Vertex balding, plasma insulin-like growth factor 1, and insulin-like
growth factor binding protein 3
Elizabeth A. Platz, ScD , Michael N. Pollak, MD , Walter C. Willett,
MD, DrPH, Edward Giovannucci, MD, ScD
Boston, Massachusetts, and Montreal, Canada
Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology
June 2000 • Volume 42 • Number 6
Copyright © 2000 by the American Academy of Dermatology, Inc.

The short of it? They don’t really know yet. The matter is still
under study.

Hrm.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=175072
 

DammitLetMeIn

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One must remember that IGF-1 is hugely anabolic.


Lets look at the facts:

Vertex balding is increased with higher plasma IGF-1

IGF-1 stimulates 5-alpha reductase in human scrotal skin

IGF-1 causes the production of excessive sebum.
 

DammitLetMeIn

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IGF-1 and androgen
Human hair follicles are targets of sex steroids. In particular, androgens induce regression of terminal (large) hair during the development of male-pattern baldness and transform vellus (small) hair to terminal hair in genital skin during puberty.[55] These effects may be associated with high levels of circulating IGF-1 [56] which directly stimulates the activity of the androgen receptor.[57] It is also possible that IGF-1 stimulates the activity of 5-reductase in the skin which increases the local production of dihydrotestosterone converted from testosterone.[58]

The mechanisms by which androgens stimulate hair growth are not fully understood but may be mediated by IGF-1 from the dermal papilla. For example, Itami et al [59] demonstrated that androgens are capable of stimulating proliferation of the beard papilla cells but not the outer root sheath (ORS) cells. However, when ORS cells are cocultured with the papilla cells without cell contact, androgens are able to stimulate their growth. In addition, they found that IGF-1 mRNA is expressed in the papilla but not in ORS and suggested the proliferation of ORS cells in androgen-induced hair growth is mediated by IGF-1 from the papilla.[59]

In summary, regulation of human hair growth by androgen is probably mediated by IGF-1 in the dermal papilla. In male scalp, high levels of IGF-1 may increase the androgen receptor activity and dihydrotestosterone levels and these result in an increased propensity for baldness.

58. Horton R, Pasutti V, Antonipillai I: Androgen induction of steroid 5 alpha-reductase may be mediated via insulin-like growth factor-I. Endocrinol 1993;133:447-51.

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docj077

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DammitLetMeIn said:
Doctor, if its possible, you might want to get your IGF-1 levels checked, just to know for certain.

No need. I don't have vertex balding. I have frontal recession. Something that is not linked to IGF-1 whatsoever. I also do not demonstrate any signs of increased IGF-1 levels such as hirsutism, abnormal skeletal growth, or an increase in muscle mass.

That would be money not well spent. This is your theory and there are plenty of doctors in this world. Test your own levels.
 

DammitLetMeIn

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docj077 said:
No need. I don't have vertex balding. I have frontal recession. Something that is not linked to IGF-1 whatsoever.

It was linked to vertex balding. But vertex balding is part of male pattern baldness. Surely they're all interlinked....

docj077 said:
I also do not demonstrate any signs of increased IGF-1 levels such as hirsutism, abnormal skeletal growth, or an increase in muscle mass..

Doing something as simple as drinking milk (with Bovine Growth Hormone) can put your IGF-1 levels higher than they should be.


docj077 said:
That would be money not well spent.

I didn't realize you'd have to pay. Thought you'd get a freebie at med school or whatever. Never mind.

docj077 said:
This is your theory.

lol, to be honest, I can't even claim it as my theory considering the amount of people who have already stated it previously.

What most interests me about the info. I have read though is the ability of IGF-1 to stimulate 5ar activity.

docj077 said:
Test your own levels.

I could, but it would be fairly pointless as I don't actually have male pattern baldness.
 

docj077

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DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
No need. I don't have vertex balding. I have frontal recession. Something that is not linked to IGF-1 whatsoever.

It was linked to vertex balding. But vertex balding is part of male pattern baldness. Surely they're all interlinked....

Nope, frontal recession and vertex balding are not linked processes other than their similar link to dihydrotestosterone. They can lead into one another, but the patterning of growth simulatory and growth inhibitory factors is not the same in each area of the scalp. Not to mention that the two type of five alpha reductase are also not equally distributed throughout the scalp. In fact, different regions of the scalp are almost entirely physiologically different with regards to their response to hormones due to the differing concentrations of the type I and type II 5AR isoenzymes in the front vs. the vertex of the scalp.


DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
I also do not demonstrate any signs of increased IGF-1 levels such as hirsutism, abnormal skeletal growth, or an increase in muscle mass..

Doing something as simple as drinking milk (with Bovine Growth Hormone) can put your IGF-1 levels higher than they should be.

However, prolonged elevation of IGF-1 leads to physical signs and symptoms. This is well documented. Especially, in people that take IGF-1 as a supplement or people that suddenly have their level of IGF-1 altered.



DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
That would be money not well spent.

I didn't realize you'd have to pay. Thought you'd get a freebie at med school or whatever. Never mind.

There is no such thing as a "freebie" in modern medicine. Everyone pays and everyone is held accountable for the actions of everyone else in the hospital. It's a sign of a well-trained moral barometer within the system.


DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
This is your theory.

lol, to be honest, I can't even claim it as my theory considering the amount of people who have already stated it previously.

What most interests me about the info. I have read though is the ability of IGF-1 to stimulate 5ar activity.

IGF-1 stimulates 5AR activity, but only in particular tissues. This theory that you've continued to defend has actually been around for quite a while. Unfortunately, an increase in IGF-1 is associated with vertex balding, but it's also associated with a good response to all of our current hair loss drugs approved by the FDA for use. Minoxidil, finasteride, and even dutasteride all increase IGF-1 levels. However, I only found the increase in IGF-1 associated with vertex balding in the studies you posted and those levels only give plasma and not scalp IGF-1 levels. No other study gives the plasma values. Instead, they only demonstrate a clear increase in IGF-1 RNA and protein production, which is what the studies you posted should have done. Doing an experiment that shows and increase in 5AR RNA associated with incremental challenges of IGF-1 would be the perfect experiment. However, the samples would have to be taken from different parts of the scalp.

If the scalp levels are the same whether you have vertex balding or you are medicated, then we know that the increase is actually due to the hair follicle trying to upregulate 5AR in response to a decrease in downstream signals and DHT binding due to drug/enzyme and drug/downstream mediator interactions.


DammitLetMeIn said:
docj077 said:
Test your own levels.

I could, but it would be fairly pointless as I don't actually have male pattern baldness.

Then, why are you here? Are you trying to sell something or are you just bored?
 

abcdefg

Senior Member
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So higher igf-1 is found in the scalp vertex?
What is the difference in dht concentrations between the scalp vertex area and the frontal regions? Is type 1 found more in the front or something?
 
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