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Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by DammitLetMeIn, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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    I don't think he grasps the full effects of IGF-1 on the body. Because if this were the magic cause we would all show "other" symptoms related to the elevated levels of this.

    Gigantism, prostate cancer, increased muscle mass, sexual function, organ function, the list goes on .....

    (from wikipedia)
    Almost every cell in the human body is affected by IGF-1, especially cells in muscle, cartilage, bone, liver, kidney, nerves, skin, and lungs. In addition to the insulin-like effects, IGF-1 can also regulate cell growth and development, especially in nerve cells, as well as cellular DNA synthesis.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Doctor, could you possibly elaborate on this? I have never heard this before. Are you saying that like 5ar1 may affect vertex balding more than 5ar2? How do drugs like Avodart stop the balding process for the entire scalp while blocking only half of 5ar1?
     
  3. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    This is the only link they need. Especially when IGF-1 is proven to stimulate 5ar activity.


    Indeed, and one of those physical signs and symptoms is prostate cancer which again is linke to male pattern baldness (I have found even more studies since the last time you chose to dispute this).

    Thats strange because i was fairly certain doctors got plenty of freebies from drug companies when attending conferences and the like.

    You have no viable proof that it does not do so in the scalp. In fact, odds are, it DOES do so in the scalp.

    I can see how this would be so, given that it is pro-growth. Finisteride takes away the deleterious effects of DHT so you're left with only growth.

    This however would not be the case in natural circumstances - indeed, DHT would rise alongside plasma levels of IGF-1.

    You must remember IgF-1 is the one of the most ANABOLIC of hormones.

    Are you aware of the mechanism by which they do this?

    You're missing the point. 95% of IGF-1 is distributed to tissues via plasma. This includes the scalp.


    Which studies do you speak of?

    I think the studies I posted were adequate. I believe they could be improved upon however, and as far as I'm aware the Chinese begun just such a study last year.

    Don't get too far ahead of yourself...this is mere theory you speak of.

    I was shedding hair. Mercifully, it appears to have stopped. I am not trying to sell anything. And yes, I have some free time so I guess I am bored and I find this stuff interesting.
     
  4. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    No, higher IGF-1 is found in blood where there is balding of scalp vertex. By implication I and others have deduced that it is also higher in scalp tissue.
     
  5. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    Some of those signs and symptoms which you mention ARE associated with vertex balding.
     
  6. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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    they are associated with alot of other things also ... for it to be concrete it has to be every person every time which isn't true.

    Like your all type 1 diabetics shouldn't have male pattern baldness theory. If it isn't every person every time it isn't plausible.

    We ALL can't be exceptions to the rule.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    my dad has type I. he is NW5.
     
  8. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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    if IGF-1 was the problem they would of already known as they extensive cancer tests with it and something would of linked it.

    IGF-1 plays a much larger role in the body as a whole. Any fluctuation in it to where it would have any effect on your body would have noticeable results.

    If it were concentrated in one area's tissues we would also have tumors all over that area as it promotes that kind of growth.

    http://www.mindfully.org/Health/IGF-1-C ... 7oct01.htm

    http://www.cancerindex.org/geneweb/IGF1.htm

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 080308.htm
     
  9. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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  10. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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  11. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    I don't think it has to be concrete for every person every time. A vast majority of cases would suffice.

    That wasn't my theory. It was something Doctor suggested about shbg. I now believe it to be a false theory as there are too many other co-factors involved.

    I agree. there has to be a significant correlation.

    Not necessarily given that only 40% of men suffer from male pattern baldness . Most medics dont even pay attention to baldness, believing it to be genetic. (ask Doctor)

    And it does have noticeable results, i.e. hair loss amongst others.

    This is completely false.

    IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause growth of a beard
    IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause grow of hair in human scrotal skin.
    IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha resuctase to cause acne.
    IGF-1 enlarges sebaceous glands.
    An IGF-1 expert says it is highly likely that it causes baldness.

    You telling me IGF-1 doesn't do the exact same thing in the scalp?
     
  12. MacAttack

    MacAttack Established Member

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    DLM...simple then...its either put up or shut up...take a look @ http://www.johnstonefitness.com... make a site similar to that...but ur goal will be regrowing hair rather then building muscle...make a full diet that we can follow...and take weekly pics...if you do this and I see regrowth I WILL PERSONALLY GIVE YOU $5000 IN CASH if i see significant regrowth. Once again, put up or shut up.
     
  13. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    I like how JayMan's little addition was ignored by the thread creator. JayMan's father is a doctor and it is very likely that his insulin and blood sugar levels are kept under control. And yet, he's a NW5.
     
  14. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    Also, it's not the increase in IGF-1 that causes prostate cancer. It's gene polymorphisms in IGF-1 and CYP19 that are associated with worse prostate cancer outcomes. Specifically, gene repeats. Over 18 CA repeats in IGF-1 and over seven TTTA repeats in CYP19.

    The severity of metastatic prostate cancer is based upon intrinsic genetic factors within the individual. An increase in IGF-1 has nothing to do with it. It's the response due to a genetically defective IGF-1 and CYP19 molecules that determines the prognosis. Especially, in metastatic prostate cancer.

    Also, the chance of developing prostate cancer is not necessarily increased by an increase in IGF-1 (the chance is actually pretty low according to the very study that the thread creator posted with many researchers claiming no significant correlation). Once again genetics trump anything else here as the increased risk is associated with the individual not carrying two copies of the IGF-1R (AGG) 7 allele.



    For those that are curious, here is a recent study demonstrating how to raise or lower IGF-1 levels.


    : Public Health Nutr. 2007 Jan;10(1):97-105. Links
    Impact of nutrients on insulin-like growth factor-I, insulin-like growth factor binding protein-3 and their ratio in African American and white males.McGreevy KM, Hoel BD, Lipsitz SR, Hoel DG.
    Department of Biostatistics, Bioinformatics, and Epidemiology, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, SC, USA. katemcgreevy@comcast.net

    OBJECTIVE: Higher levels of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) and lower levels of IGF binding protein-3 (IGFBP-3) have been associated with an increased risk of prostate cancer. Nutrition is known to partially regulate IGF levels and it is possible that nutritional factors mediate the impact of IGF levels on prostate cancer risk. Design: A cross-sectional analysis of the impact of nutritional factors measured by a dietary questionnaire on plasma levels of IGF-I, IGFBP-3 and their molar ratio. Multiple linear regression analysis was used to test for effects of nutrients on IGF levels. SETTING: Prostate cancer screening at the Hollings Cancer Center in Charleston, South Carolina. SUBJECTS: Ninety-five African American and 138 white males aged 33-83 years attending the screening. RESULTS: In whites, intakes of total, saturated and monounsaturated fats were positively associated with an increase in the molar ratio, while there was no association in African Americans. In African Americans, we found that increasing intake of calcium and dairy servings was positively associated with IGF-I levels. Increased vegetable intake was positively associated with IGFBP-3 in African Americans, while there was no effect in whites. A higher percentage of alcohol in the total diet was significantly associated with a decrease in the molar ratio and an increase in IGFBP-3 in both groups. CONCLUSIONS: Our results confirm previous findings of nutritional determinants of IGF levels. Additionally, we found the impact of several nutrients on IGF levels to be different in whites and African Americans, which warrants further investigation.


    So, IGF-1 can be decreased in particular ways in certain populations through diet. However, it may lower risk somewhat, but the underlying cause is a genetic defect, so the cause and the prognosis is still based upon inherited abnormalities. This holds true for male pattern baldness as well as the underlying defect is a triplet repeat mutation in the androgen receptor gene on the x chromosome.

    So, once again, you can try to influence the outcome through diet, but it will be a lifelong battle.

    Medications FTW on this one as they will lower the endogenous levels of DHT to make a difference. Also, high IGF-1 levels in a human being bring obvious physical signs and symptoms. Research these signs and symptoms if you have vertex baldness and perhaps see a doctor if you're concerned.
     
  15. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    Dude, I don't want your money. I'm discussing the idea that hair loss is down to an increase in plasma IGF-1.

    If you want to understand it, don't take my word for it, do a little research online. You might be surprized at what you find...

    I know not of Jayman's father's health. However, I made the assertion regarding the relevance of SHBG (altho I still believe its somewhat relevant) prior to learning about the intricacies of IGF-1.
     
  16. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    Disagree.

    Yes, they may be associated with worse prostate cancer outcomes. However, it is entirely possible that with a good anti-prostate cancer diet such as that suggested by Dr. Michael Colgan (look it up) that prostate cancer will never eventuate.

    Moreover, most specialists say EVERY man will contract prostate cancer should he live long enough.

    Obviously someone strongly predisposed who actually has prostate cancer is more likely to have metastasis. So?

    False. Look online.

    It may well determine the medical prognosis once a patient HAS prostate cancer, however, prior to acquiring prostate cancer both IGF-1 and diet have been shown as major determinants

    Untrue. It is a specified risk factor second only to 'age'.

    Increased risk, yes. Absolute determinant, no.

    You provide 1 study that actually agrees with what I said. You know how many studies I can provide on this issue?

    Translated to a hair loss situation: 'you may keep your hair until you're 50 but eventually you'll succumb to the gene'

    I think most people would be happy enough to keep their hair for a long time.

    Not if you're keeping your free IGF-1 at the right levels.


    I've never said medications didn't work - not once. Of course lowering DHT is the way to go but medications don't address the underlying cause of DHT, that is, what is elevating IGF-1. Until you address that you're going to be stuck on medications, moreover, you'll be dealing with side-effects and be potentially damaging your body.

    There are MANY MANY signs and symptoms of increased IGF-1, a lot of which may simply be passed off as living, e.g. being fat.

    Lol @ you trying to isolate 'vertex baldness' as if it is an isolated symptom or caused by something else.

    Listen, if a dude is balding its because he has high DHT and if its vertex its male pattern baldness.

    As I've said before:

    IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause growth of a beard
    IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha reductase to cause grow of hair in human scrotal skin.
    IGF-1 stimulates 5 alpha resuctase to cause acne.
    IGF-1 enlarges sebaceous glands.
    An IGF-1 expert says it is highly likely that it causes baldness.

    You telling me IGF-1 doesn't do the exact same thing in the scalp?
     
  17. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

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    So if I could sum up your argument succinctly, you think that an appropriate diet could downregulate IGF-1 sufficiently to compensate for a genetic propensity towards baldness (more 5AR, more androgen receptors)?

    But wouldn't that downregulation have all kinds of other negative consequences for the body? And how could diet alone achieve this given the other influences on IGF-1 levels?

    Apologies to all if this has been covered in the numerous arguments before. Haven't been watching the thread religiously.
     
  18. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    I don't. You must genetically predisposed to prostate cancer in order to develop the disease. Whether it be through an inherited mutation or a spontaneous mutation.

    No, not every specialist says that. Every specialist that does pedigrees and examines genetic diseases acknowledges that prostate cancer (like all cancer) has an increased chance of developing if you have a first degree relative with the disease.

    Intrinsic genetic abnormalities are the cornerstone of modern cancer research. Don't belittle the work of thousands with your asshat theories.

    True. Look online. An increase in prostate cancer risk is associated with increased IGF-1, but only in susceptible individuals.

    No, the major determinants are age, family history, and race. It's the same way for all cancers.

    No, IGF-1 is not a main factor. Genetic predisposition through family history is the number two determinant.

    So, now you turn the increased risk argument against me. You have two papers that you posted that say there is no clinical or scientific significance between elevated IGF-1 and prostate cancer. I even pointed them out to you and their results even justify their conclusions. Yet, somehow you think you're above the interpretations of the individuals that performed the studies. You need to accept the fact that you are in over your head on this one.

    Raising or lowering IGF-1 through diet through studies I post doesn't mean that I agree with you at all. You make things too simple with your posts when the human body is far more complicated that your simple mind can comprehend. You say "cut the fats." Yet, that will have no impact on IGF-1 levels in an African American. They have to cut the dairy. You make yourself look stupid and your opinion look foolish when you attempt to take the complexities of modern medicine and turn them into your own personal scientific circus. I don't trust you and I don't trust your conclusions, because every study that you post either has a study that completely contradicts it or your conclusions contradict the conclusions of the researchers performing the study.

    No. That's oversimplification (something you're good at) and completely incorrect.

    You have no proof of what the correct levels are for a male with male pattern baldness, nor do you have proof that lowering these levels will prevent or reverse male pattern baldness. You also have no proof that shows that men with a defective androgen receptor and low IGF-1 levels have no hair loss. You MUST prove all of these. It's your theory and I'm challenging it.

    It doesn't matter what you do with IGF-1. High IGF-1 gives a person signs and symptoms of a disease process. They are very evident. Stopping DHT at the level of the enzyme or the receptor prevents all downstream effects regardless of any effect IGF-1 has in tissue. You still don't have proof that lowering IGF-1 is beneficial in male pattern baldness, nor do you have proof that it's even safe.

    Oversimplification. Non-sequitur.

    This is something that you have no proof of. Testosterone and estrogen directly upregulate 5AR function and increase IGF-1 concentrations. You have no proof that IGF-1 increases 5AR function in any way as you don't have the peer-reviewed proof that increased IGF-1 concentrations cause an increase in intracellular signalling and 5AR gene transcription. Your studies don't demonstrate what the hormone levels are with the increase in IGF-1. For all we know, what's actually happening is hormonal upregulation of 5AR function with the IGF-1 increase simply being an extra finding due to hormonally mediated influences. You have no proof otherwise.
     
  19. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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    yeah i don't think he reads any of the linked studies anyone else posts that aren't abstracts.

    IGF-1 as it relates to evolution
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

    Prostate cancer and IGF-1
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

    IGF-1 declines with age
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

    Unlike just the abstracts this shows the full studies.. please read carefully. This isn't pubmed its the journal of clinical endocrinology. And only recent studies I.E. 2000+ not ages in the past.
     
  20. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    Kind of makes a mockery of what you intended to convey by 'genetically predisposed'....

    Look, I know of some of THE top specialists. and this is their contention.


    Well, whoop de doo, we have a genius on our hands...smh

    Modern Western Medicine research. Its all focused on a singular narrow minded and thereby limited outlook. Don't even TRY and talk to me about Western Medicine and cancer when we're BLATANTLY losing the war on cancer.

    How about you don't be so condescending as to label anyone with an alternative viewpoint as 'asshat'. You immediately take an 'L' when you express yourself like that. Not to say I'm surprized tho.

    Like I said already, EVERY man will get prostate cancer if they live long enough - that means everyone is a susceptible individual. Thereby, increased IGF-1 is a risk for every male for acquriing prostate cancer or at very least some malady of the prostate.

    I was referring to outside of those determinants.

    It is a MAIN risk factor, I even produced a paper earlier in the thread to show this. Stop skirting around the facts by trying to twist them in an attempt wot in an argument. As someone with male pattern baldness I'd have thought you would be interested in truth, not petty squabbles.

    I was merely pointing out facts. In my view this is not an 'argument' - at least not on my behalf.

    You read what you wanted to read out of them. Their 'discussions' and 'conclusions' did not echo your sentiments. They beleive there is a correlation.

    Besides I can produce many more studies.

    They SAID there IS a correlation. All you did was take out a specific piece of the studies which agreed with you. Besides there are many more studies which show a correlation.

    IT was THEIR interpretations I repeated. You took their statistics and drew your own conclusions.

    Who are you to tell me I'm in over my head? Do you have a cure for male pattern baldness? I didn't think so. From your other posts I'm aware that you're not even a Doctor yet you have 'Doctor' in your screen name. You're just a medical student yet you seem to think you have more knowledge than two M.D. who believe that IGF-1 plays a significant role in male pattern baldness.

    You think I'm in over my head? At least I'm not downtalking two people more advanced in my own profession.

    I wouldn't expect any less from you based on your previous posts.

    You individualise things and over-complicate things even where facts are staring you in the face. I simply repeat what I've read in studies and from experts and MD's. You think you're above their interpretations.


    Again, an insult from you. I cannot say I'm surprised as this appears to be your level.

    YOu'd have to go back 57pages and many days of research before you'd hear me say that. My reasoning and knowledge of male pattern baldness has prgressed from that point.

    Your ability to have an educated conversation apparently hasn't.

    You have already heard me speak of IGF-1 in dairy in this thread, and btw for the record, dairy is full of fat.

    In fact it is you who looks foolish for being unable to see whats in front of you preferring to pick minor flaws than to listen to reason. Even when a doctor points it out you refuse to take heed.

    You speak of modern medicine, yet if you look at their record on male pattern baldness, its pretty horrendous. You can keep banging your head against a brick wall if you like.

    And I don't trust you to be a free thinker and separate yourself from your completely indoctrinated outlook. Nor, do I trust your character in light on your insistence at throwing insults.

    This is false. Completely false.

    Again, this offering is completely false.

    Its not incorrect.

    My contention is that a male wouldn't HAVE male pattern baldness if his levels were correct. As we've already seen IGF-1 levels are ELEVATED in males with male pattern baldness, and acne and prostate cancer.

    And you have no proof that it won't. Moreover, I am prepared to explore the idea by looking at ALL the information and looking at corresponding afflictions such as PCOS, acne, prostate cancer etc

    You seem to want to throw the idea out of the window before its even considered even where there is evidence to support it. YOu'll get nowhere being so dismissive.


    Well if they have 'LOW' IGF-1 levels then they are likely to have hairloss. I would advocate NORMAL levels.

    All I need to prove is a correlation between elevated IGF-1 and hair loss on a consistent basis. Enough so that downregulating IGF-1 is a good idea for men with male pattern baldness.

    Once again, its NOT my theory. Many people including M.D.'s have already advanced the theory with even greater science than I have provided.

    This is presumptious and in my view inaccurate.

    Elevated IGF-1 ocurs in bodybuilders. They have symptoms of disease?

    I never disputed this.

    I have proof that elevated IGF-1 is associated with male pattern baldness. As for lowering IGF-1 levels, it is something I have raised for discussion and something suggested to be explored. I'm not saying for everyone to go out and lower their IGF-1 levels, I'm simply discussin the link with male pattern baldness.

    How about i rephrase it for you. 'Oversimplification, in my opinon.' You are not the ultimate arbiter of the human body, so don't act like it.

    All the evidence is mounting up. All it lacks is one specific study. I didn't say it was 110% true, again its something I put out for discussion with an open mind - not to be dismissed by a closed one such as yours.

    I have studies which show that it does in areas DHT sensitive area apart from the scalp

    I welcome such points, but that still doesn't dismiss my overall contention entirely.

    But you know, everything is always so negative with you. The glass is always half-empty even when it is 3/4 full. You can't seem to look past current medical consenus. You're mentally trapped.
     

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