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Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by DammitLetMeIn, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    I'm done going back and forth with you.

    You don't agree with the contention advanced by myself, and an IGF-1 expert, another person who has been researching hairloss for 9 years, and three M.D.'s.

    Thats fair enough and you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm quite simply tired of your attempts to twist facts in order to win an argument where the other side is only interested in the truth.

    I don't mind you putting forward science which contends that such a contention may be inaccurate such as the finisteride study you provided but additonal dismissive and somewhat petty comments dismissing the idea out of the water are completely unnecessary.
     
  2. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    I do read the studies provided. However, I have a decent knowledge of IGF-1 and nothing that I've read in your studies tells me that the theory is inaccurate.

    I'm aware that Finisteride is working well for you and I'm truly happy for you but that doesn't mean other theories are automatically dead.

    Perhaps you would like to elaborate upon what it is you feel makes the idea inaccurate from your studies?
     
  3. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Can you post those studies? I'd be very curious to know how/why IGF-1 would increase 5AR function...

    Bryan
     
  4. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    IGF-1 regulating 5-Alpha-Reductase activity:

    http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... 447?ck=nck

    http://www.ihop-net.org/UniPub/iHOP/pm/ ... id=8344190

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    'In summary, regulation of human hair growth by androgen is probably mediated by IGF-1 in the dermal papilla. In male scalp, high levels of IGF-1 may increase the androgen receptor activity and dihydrotestosterone levels and these result in an increased propensity for baldness.'

    http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num ... ws/su.html

    'Human hair follicles are targets of sex steroids. In particular, androgens induce regression of terminal (large) hair during the development of male-pattern baldness and transform vellus (small) hair to terminal hair in genital skin during puberty.[55] These effects may be associated with high levels of circulating IGF-1 [56] which directly stimulates the activity of the androgen receptor.[57] It is also possible that IGF-1 stimulates the activity of 5-reductase in the skin which increases the local production of dihydrotestosterone converted from testosterone.'[58]

    57. Culig Z, Hobisch A, Cronauer MV, radmayr C, Trapman J, Hittmair A, Bartsch G, Klocker H: Androgen receptor activation in prostatic tumor cell lines by insulin-like growth factor-I, keratinocyte growth factor, and epidermal growth factor. Cancer Res 1994;54:5474-8.

    58. Horton R, Pasupuletti V, Antonipillai I: Androgen induction of steroid 5 alpha-reductase may be mediated via insulin-like growth factor-I. Endocrinol 1993;133:447-51.

    'Aberrant activation of the Androgen Receptors has been demonstrated in vitro with IGF-1, keratinocyte growth factor, and epidermal growth factor. These agents can directly activate the Androgen Receptors in the absence of androgens and may contribute to the progression of prostate cancer and AA (43 , 44) .

    http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/conten ... /6/549#B13

    Gabe Mirkin M.D. points out the connection:

    http://www.drmirkin.com/men/M119.htm
    This is from a cancer doctor Neil D. Barnard M.D.:

    By the way, the enzyme (5-alphareductase) that turns testosterone into DHT is also found in the scalp,9 where it works mischief of a different sort. DHT plays a critical role in baldness. Without it, men will not lose their hair, no matter what their genetics may dictate. DHT activity in the scalp may be subject to dietary manipulation.

    http://www.cancerproject.org/survival/c ... health.php
    ***IGF-1 can lead to aberrant activation of the Androgen Receptor***

    Blok G. J., de Boer H., Gooren L. J., van der Veen E. A. Growth hormone substitution in adult growth hormone-deficient men augments androgen effects on the skin. Clin. Endocrinol., 47: 29-36, 1997

    CONCLUSIONS
    Overdosage of IGF-I can lead to androgenization, a previously undescribed undesirable effect of IGF-I. Long-term IGF-I treatment necessitates progressive adjustment of the IGF-I dose to avoid overtreatment.

    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/ ... 98.00356.x

    Here are some excerpts from some other medical Articles cited online:

    'Our findings suggest that high levels of IGF-1 may be associated with
    increased risk of vertex baldness. Substantial clinical evidence
    appears to support this finding.'

    'It has also been recently reported that GH treatment of GH-deficient
    men increases hair scores in androgen-dependent areas. These effects
    can be explained either by IGF-1 directly stimulating the androgen
    receptor, or by IGF-1 increasing local 5alpha-reductase activity and
    thus stimulating the local conversion of testosterone to
    dihydrotestosterone.'

    Signorello LB et al. Hormones and hair patterning in men: A role for insulin-like growth factor-1. Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology February, 1999;40:200-203.
     
  5. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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    yet you still fail to see the studies that point out

    1. Hormones effect IGF-1 levels greater then diet.
    2. IGF-1 levels decline with age.
    3. IGF-1 is regulated by IGFBP-3

    The studies you post only say .. can ... may ... possible. Not difinitive.

    If IGF-1 were the major cause of baldness they would of already synthesized a supplimental IGFBP-3 seeing that is what regulates IGF-1 MORE then any diet would.

    http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp ... 012300.htm
     
  6. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    Good. Maybe you'll post a completed theory lacking in all the holes that your original theory had to begin with. I can't believe that you don't understand that all I'm trying to do is make you work for your opinion. I'm not questioning the results. I'm merely questioning how much you really want to help others when you don't have the problem yourself. Either you're a person with a foolishly large amount of altruistic tendencies, or you really want to help others.

    Like I said, the IGF-1 increasing 5AR activity link has been around for years (one article is from 1993). There hasn't been anything done with it since that experiment. At least not in humans. Lowering fat intake and raising the amount of fiber intake appears to lower IGF-1 levels. However, there is no definitive link between that fact and a man with a genetic predisposition to male pattern baldness having his hair loss reversed or stopped. That's the study that needs to be done and both you and I know it. There is also no link between increased IGF-1 levels and frontal baldness.

    A perfect study would take a few thousand men (half with baldness and half without with differing Norwood levels); sample their blood for IGF-1 levels, testosterone, SHBG and DHT; sample their scalps (differing regions for each participant); and take those scalp samples and measure the amount of DHT, T, IGF-1,SHBG, and 5AR activity along with amount of TGF-beta activity.

    That would pretty much give us the answer to male pattern baldness. What would be even better is if they included a population in the study that was taking finasteride or dutasteride and took the same measurements.



    Again, I'm not trying to bring you down or flip your theory against you. I'm just trying to make you work, because you bring up good points, but a lot of your studies don't defend your theory. In fact, many of them are lacking in any support whatsoever.
     
  7. DammitLetMeIn

    DammitLetMeIn Experienced Member

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    I was actually hoping people would bring forth their own material which may or may not support the theory. There were a multitudinous amount of studies online which I did not have the subscription for and would love to have read.

    Theres a way of doing it, and it doesn't involve cheap digs. Besides you preferred to be consistently negative rather than play devil's advocate regarding the issue.

    I told you, I did have a problem. My hair was shedding massively. But it appears to have been some form of telogen effluvium as it is now growing back devoid of any treatments.

    I had a foolishly large amount of free time which has now come to an end. My interest was purely for interest's sake and potential future reference should I ever go down the road of male pattern baldness.

    Actually there has. I found a conflicting study earlier today which stated that IGF-1 had no effect on 5ar activity however, growth hormone did. To be honest there needs to be further studies on the issue. But I don't think it is one which should be ignored especially when so many learned individuals have pointed out the link.

    For all I know there IS a study somewhere out there which indicates one way or the other.

    The question to be asked is 'would those guys have had vertex balding if their IGF-1 levels were lower'? - who knows.

    I actually found another study earlier which stated that insulin (not IGF-1) is able to mimic IGF-1 and impact upon IGF-1 receptors in the hair follicle thus preventing the growth of the hair. This was interesting.

    All around it appears that keeping insulin sensitivity is a good idea for hair health and over all health

    I personally beleive there is a bigger genetic influence on frontal baldness.

    I agree. But until that time I think its risky to ignore all other studies if one has male pattern baldness. Besides having high insulin isn't good for people anyways.


    Well, I guess you won't have to worry about it anymore. I don't have any time left to research or other stuff. I have to get on with real life again.
     
  8. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    :D :D :D

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... /83/6/2104

     
  9. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    http://www.hairloss-research.org/february2.html

     
  10. OverMachoGrande

    OverMachoGrande Senior Member

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    The way I see it... The more animal fat is consumed, the higher the estradiol levels. The more estradiol you have in your body overpowers the testosterone effects... Your body then creates DHT which is 5x stronger than testosterone to balance the effects of the excess estradiol. I believe the reason why some people bald and some don't has to do with the amount of aromatase enzymes and the amount of estrogen in their bodies. DHT is still the enemy, but without all the excess estrogen overwhelming your system, DHT has no purpose.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Without reading 48 pages of this thread, can someone summarise what was said? I do believe diet has a part in hair loss, I believe a bad diet can accelerate hair loss.
     
  12. moxsom

    moxsom Established Member

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    Re:

    Hey, I have been doing alot of reading on IGF-1. You sir should read this article or even the abstract.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...erid=10&md5=32d898dfc540190a177aa9ac83cbaebd

    Increased IGF-1 showed improvement whilst decreased IGF-1 showed worsening results.

    IGF-1 is a mjor player in proliferating and differentiating dermal cells into hair shafts, why would it cause baldness?
     
  13. moxsom

    moxsom Established Member

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    And then I read like 15 pages of this thread. Seems like a lot of contradicting studies on IGF-1
     
  14. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    No it doesn't.
     
  15. GreekGod_of_Aesthetics

    GreekGod_of_Aesthetics Established Member My Regimen

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    My Regimen:
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    Legendary thread. Gonna catch-up with it.
    Any TLDR's?;)
     

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