The Truth About Follica, Need Help Please

[H]

Riken is a research institute, though.

Doing studies and publishing findings for peer review is what they do.

RepliCel is a start-up company that is not generating revenue and thus needs to throw numbers and data out there to attract investors.

Follica has all the financial support they need from PureTech, so the only people they need impress at this stage is PureTech and the FDA

I totally understand and they have no need to cater to me but I feel it's very frustrating that they've advertised their product like a cheesy action movie trailer. I really want them to pull through but I just don't trust it.

 

[coolio]

Follica/Cotsarelis spent most of a decade doing lots of lab work on mice, making a steady stream of incremental discoveries about skin/hair in general, doing a few small human trials, and making no claims of being anywhere near the commercial market. They tended to downplay how far along they were, if anything. The discoveries were always several years old when Cots finally announced them & implied that they were recent.

The last couple years are the first time they have suggested they will have anything going commercial soon. And they still aren't seeking outside investment while they do it.

Right now I'm giving them a big, fat, benefit-of-the-doubt.

 

[H]

Are they using Minoxodil? I know we have a lot of people back and forth about this on the threads but does anyone have any proof of them either not using it or indeed using it I'm just wondering?

 

[hairblues]

From Puretech website, i never looked at it before

Follica is developing a complete treatment system for hair loss, informed by scientific rigor, clinical research, and user experience design. Our approach aims not only to improve existing hair growth, but also to grow new hair. Our technology is based on a proprietary approach intended to create an "embryonic window" in adult skin, allowing new follicles and new hair to form from epithelial stem cells. This regenerative effect is called hair follicle neogenesis. Follica has an exclusive, worldwide license from the University of Pennsylvania to develop and commercialize this potentially breakthrough technology, clinically demonstrated to stimulate the genesis and development of new follicles in adult humans.

So can we take that last sentence to mean they got it to work in a human?
Problem is (I guess) we don know 'what' the new follicles do yet, or how they behave once created.

 

[gimmiehairorgimmiedeath]

From Puretech website, i never looked at it before

Follica is developing a complete treatment system for hair loss, informed by scientific rigor, clinical research, and user experience design. Our approach aims not only to improve existing hair growth, but also to grow new hair. Our technology is based on a proprietary approach intended to create an "embryonic window" in adult skin, allowing new follicles and new hair to form from epithelial stem cells. This regenerative effect is called hair follicle neogenesis. Follica has an exclusive, worldwide license from the University of Pennsylvania to develop and commercialize this potentially breakthrough technology, clinically demonstrated to stimulate the genesis and development of new follicles in adult humans.

So can we take that last sentence to mean they got it to work in a human?
Problem is (I guess) we don know 'what' the new follicles do yet, or how they behave once created.

 

[coolio]

Making new follicles in live humans isn't impressive unless the hairs are TERMINALS. That's the big thing there. Follica figured out how to make little vellus fuzz many years ago. The challenge since then has been to ramp-up the effect.

You can dermabrade or needle your balding skin and you'll get an occasional stray terminal hair. That's the whole principle Follica is trying to do. Make that occasional stray hair into a steady even repeatable coverage. The medical world has seen a few occasional freak cases of patches of hair being generated with wounding over the years/centuries. The principle is solid.


minoxidil - I really don't care whether they use it or not. Even if they are, there's no way in heck that minoxidil could be the only thing producing their results. Forget it. minoxidil has been around & popular for 30-some years. We know what it can do by itself and what it can't. You don't have to run a clinical trial just to discover an effect caused by a topical drug + a mild skin abrasion. Anything like that gets discovered by users within the first couple years the drug is being sold.

 

[hairblues]

Making new follicles in live humans isn't impressive unless the hairs are TERMINALS. That's the big thing there. Follica figured out how to make little vellus fuzz many years ago. The challenge since then has been to ramp-up the effect.

You can dermabrade or needle your balding skin and you'll get an occasional stray terminal hair. That's the whole principle Follica is trying to do. Make that occasional stray hair into a steady even repeatable coverage. The medical world has seen a few occasional freak cases of patches of hair being generated with wounding over the years/centuries. The principle is solid.


minoxidil - I really don't care whether they use it or not. Even if they are, there's no way in heck that minoxidil could be the only thing producing their results. Forget it. minoxidil has been around & popular for 30-some years. We know what it can do by itself and what it can't. You don't have to run a clinical trial just to discover an effect caused by a topical drug + a mild skin abrasion. Anything like that gets discovered by users within the first couple years the drug is being sold.

I think you hit it close to home.

I think they figured out how to reproduce a 'follicle'

and minoxidil will probably be the solution to keep hair in growth phase

BUT they have to be working on 'something' else that keeps it or guides it into behaving like the other hairs on our head.


This is also something I Read about this weekend that makes me pessimistic with Tsugi time line as well..because there is NO Way to know how long the hairs will be in growth phase once implants, and if it will be done after 1 cycle...they are going to have to do long trials once they able to actually do the technique (i think unless I missed something)

 

[pegasus2]

I totally agree with you that would be awesome but there's something that bothers me...

Can't put my finger on it...

Anyways, I'm sure they're not fooling around with us and it legit does have like so much regrowth that's why they can't show us anything... because it works. I can see the business method actually see they don't want to show us the awesome regrowth because we would hype it up too much and they would make too much money. I mean Riken has pictures of the 3 hair' d mouse and has published all kinds of data and even Replicels data didn't turn out with all the regrowth we all wanted or even they wanted but at least they posted it.

What would be the point in releasing data now if they don't need more investors? Better to wait until the last trial is completed and let the marketing department handle that.

 

[Christian Miller]

I think you hit it close to home.

I think they figured out how to reproduce a 'follicle'

and minoxidil will probably be the solution to keep hair in growth phase

BUT they have to be working on 'something' else that keeps it or guides it into behaving like the other hairs on our head.


This is also something I Read about this weekend that makes me pessimistic with Tsugi time line as well..because there is NO Way to know how long the hairs will be in growth phase once implants, and if it will be done after 1 cycle...they are going to have to do long trials once they able to actually do the technique (i think unless I missed something)

Tsuji's partner did say that injected germs and the sprouted follicles communicate with their environment and get the same regulation the other hairs do. That's on mice. We don't know how they are gonna react on a human scalp, though.

 

[H]

What would be the point in releasing data now if they don't need more investors? Better to wait until the last trial is completed and let the marketing department handle that.

I guess if they already know it works I don't see the point in withholding but I guess we'll know sometime in the 2020s

 

[tomJ]

All I know is I pray to God that follica isn't banking on minoxidil in their treatment protocol. I hate minoxidil I can't tolerate it. If so, please show me the nearest bridge after waiting this long for something new.

 

[H]

All I know is I pray to God that follica isn't banking on minoxidil in their treatment protocol. I hate minoxidil I can't tolerate it. If so, please show me the nearest bridge after waiting this long for something new.

I agree

 

[coolio]

I wouldn't care how much I hated minoxidil as long as it creates new hair.

Hair generated via wounding doesn't need perpetual drugs just to keep existing. They aren't like normal "minoxidil-dependent" hairs even if Follica uses minoxidil as part of the creation process. IMO that is already more or less proven by the real-world results of men from needling & scalp wounds. If Follica uses minoxidil then I'm fairly certain it would only be a temporary thing for a few weeks or months.

 

[H]

I wouldn't care how much I hated minoxidil as long as it creates new hair.

Hair generated via wounding doesn't need perpetual drugs just to keep existing. They aren't like normal "minoxidil-dependent" hairs even if Follica uses minoxidil as part of the creation process. IMO that is already more or less proven by the real-world results of men from needling & scalp wounds. If Follica uses minoxidil then I'm fairly certain it would only be a temporary thing for a few weeks or months.

Your suggesting the regrow hairs won't begin to miniaturize?

 

[coolio]

Maybe the hairs would miniaturize in a bunch of years but not right away.

I've got a few scattered hairs on my head from scalp abrasions & needling over the years. None of them need minoxidil to keep on growing.


Even in normal (non-Follica) usage, minoxidil doesn't have any big effect on the androgen >>> miniaturization process. It just provides some extra growth to offset the losses.

Imagine that you are gradually losing height. Rubbing minoxidil onto your head every morning is like putting high-heeled shoes on. It only offsets the problem indirectly. It doesn't fight the core issue.

 

[tomJ]

I hate to say it but I disagree. I believe their strategy is to get the follicles alive and to keep them alive with minoxidil. We all know that minoxidil can significantly slow down balding process. Does it stop it or cure it? No. But it slows it down significantly with most people. So you get the procedure, plump up the follicles with their compounds and use minoxidil to keep it thwir for a while. Oh, so your getting thin again two years later? OK time to go back and create some more follicles to plump up with the compound and minoxidil. I'm screwed big time because minoxidil messes with my heart even at low doses. It makes me feel not like myself and Insomnia. And that is with a dab of the 2% version. I'm trying hard to find ways to improve my life but it's like f ING road block after road block.

 

[gimmiehairorgimmiedeath]

I hate to say it but I disagree. I believe their strategy is to get the follicles alive and to keep them alive with minoxidil. We all know that minoxidil can significantly slow down balding process. Does it stop it or cure it? No. But it slows it down significantly with most people. So you get the procedure, plump up the follicles with their compounds and use minoxidil to keep it thwir for a while. Oh, so your getting thin again two years later? OK time to go back and create some more follicles to plump up with the compound and minoxidil. I'm screwed big time because minoxidil messes with my heart even at low doses. It makes me feel not like myself and Insomnia. And that is with a dab of the 2% version. I'm trying hard to find ways to improve my life but it's like f ING road block after road block.

Or you can double team it with the follica treatment then the replicell to maintain your newfound friends. The next 10-15 year should be pretty great for hair loss, hang in there.

Also there are a thousand other ways to improve your life besides improving your hair. Don't let that one bad apple ruin the whole bushel.

 

[tomJ]

Yes I agree I should not try and let the bad apple ruin things but I have several bad apples honestly. Of you want to know more I'd be happy to message privately. ...you mention next 10 to 15 years. I am approaching middle age it's not like I'm 25 right now, not even close....and I feel replicel is far away from being publicly availble. It is a pipe dream. IF it becomes available it will be in Asia first well before anywhere else. That would mean flying there to give your sample, flying home, flying back to get procedure. Repeat. Only the wealthy will be able to do that.

 

[coolio]

I hate to say it but I disagree. I believe their strategy is to get the follicles alive and to keep them alive with minoxidil. We all know that minoxidil can significantly slow down balding process. Does it stop it or cure it? No. But it slows it down significantly with most people. So you get the procedure, plump up the follicles with their compounds and use minoxidil to keep it thwir for a while. Oh, so your getting thin again two years later? OK time to go back and create some more follicles to plump up with the compound and minoxidil. I'm screwed big time because minoxidil messes with my heart even at low doses. It makes me feel not like myself and Insomnia. And that is with a dab of the 2% version. I'm trying hard to find ways to improve my life but it's like f ING road block after road block.

minoxidil does not fight the androgen damage directly like the 5ar drugs do. minoxidil pushes more hairs into the growth stage at the same time. This is documented IIRC.

minoxidil's hair effects are not understood well enough for me to confidently declare that this is the only hair benefit it has. The vasoldilation effect, the PGE2 effects . . . it may be several other things contributing in some degree as well. But the effect of pushing more follicles into the growth stage at the same time is definitely the main benefit. This effect is what made a big enough difference to get minoxidil marketed as a hair loss drug.



minoxidil research shows that the users' rate of loss resumes its original speed after the first couple years of initial improvement. It's like the guy who puts higher-heeled shoes on. If he was losing 1 centimeter of height per month without the shoes, then he still ends up back at the old rate losing 1 centimeter per month after the heels are in. The heels have bought him some time but the underlying problem remains.

In the case of minoxidil the "heels" don't show immediately on the first day. It takes a couple years before the heels gradually swell up to their full height when the guy starts using them.

 

[NewUser]

Are they using Minoxodil? I know we have a lot of people back and forth about this on the threads but does anyone have any proof of them either not using it or indeed using it I'm just wondering?

Idk and especially since Swoop mentions they are targeting 3-4X's minoxidil efficacy very similar to Dhurat's results with wounding + minoxidil.

But then to confuse the issue, in 2015 Cotsarelis told ABC News that they are working on new compounds. According to Dr Snyderman who spoke with Cosarelis, they definitely have something that works and will be looking to commercialise it in 3-4 years(from 2015). I'm not sure who wrote the article for the above linked-to web site, but it says:

In the future, Follica is planning on production of several trademarked products, which are currently undergoing human testing in Asia.

I think the ABC News story was 2015 but not sure. Too, Follica and Cots have thrown around the term 'novel drug' a number of times. Novel drug means New Molecular Entity (NME) is "an active compound, complex, molecule that previously has not been approved by the FDA/EMA."