Skin Needling

[KeepTheHair]

I don't know anything about copper peptides. I might go read up about it.

I just bought 2 derma rollers 1mm and I also bought some cream that I can use. Gonna try this stuff on my face also.


I think this can be good for the hair, even if you don't use something, right?

How deep is the follicles in the hair again? mhh

 

[Petchsky]

Just read the whole thread, and a couple on other sites. A cheap Dermaroller has been purchased from ebay for £12...

The feedback looks more encouraging than discouraging, and I believe it works...mainly because after having a transplant in the front, I had new hair grow just away from where the hair was transplanted, and this was down to the wounding I feel....can be the only explanation as my core regimen has been steady for 8 years.

Also just made my own Scalpure. Looks like this thread will live on....thanks to all the contributors

 

[joseph49853]

Wish I had better documented my journey. It's so illuminating rather than depending on memory alone. Anyhow, I managed to dig up a few photos. I wasn't always one normally inclined to take photographs.

Photo on left: April 2006: using finasteride orally and topically, minoxidil, retin-a... losing hair rapidly at the temples. Just prior to starting needling and dropping finasteride.

Photo on right: June 2008: two years later ... been off of finasteride for two years, using needling, minoxidil with most of the topicals mentioned in my posts. Hairline in the middle grew down a half an inch, right temple grew in fully, left lagging behind.

Photo on left: April 2006: using finasteride, minoxidil, retin-a. Just prior to starting needling and dropping finasteride.

Photo on right: August 2009 - three years later... been off of finasteride for three years, using just needling, minoxidil with most of the topicals mentioned in my posts. Both temples are fully grown with left slightly lagging, nice thick vellus defining the hairline. Just prior to my botched experiment with topical DIM.

 

[joseph49853]

Can I ask, how long had your temples been receded for prior to getting them back. It's just I started receding at about 15 years of age so my temples have been gone for over 15 years now. I still have fluff there. What do you reckon my chances are of getting them back.

Cheers again

Tough to say how long my temples had been receding. At that point, I was in total denial, actively avoiding all cameras and mirrors. :whistle:

My guess is the summer of 2005 is when my temples were noticeably receding with a rapid decline by the beginning of 2006. My decision to attempt needling was borne out of complete desperation. Not only was I losing ground but experiencing severe side-effects due to finasteride.

BTW, I'm thoroughly convinced that 1mm dermarollers aren't adequate enough for hair loss. My initial foray into needling had been using crude lancets and sharpened needles (to a depth of approximately 1.5mm) and having great success.

With a 1mm dermaroller I was no longer hearing a popping sound when approaching the dermis, which might just be key. Backing off to a 1mm dermaroller hasn't produced nearly the same results, even with heavy needling.

However, my new 1.5mm dermaroller (probably penetrates to a depth of 1.3mm) is plenty sufficient in this area. I bought this one here....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

I'm already seeing a marked improvement. I'll try to keep everyone updated.

 

[KeepTheHair]

That derma roller is insanely cheap!

I payed 250 dollars for 2, 1mm derma rollers. But I have 2 40g creams and one large cream 65g with it. Which I don't want to buy separately. I realize this is a bit of an expense on my end.

But I am a desperate hair loss sufferer. I actually want this mostly for my face also. I have very mild acne scars and some red spots. Might clear those away and so on.


They say that 0.5mm is for hair loss. So 1mm should be fine. 1.5mm is bit pushing it maybe?

I saw some pictures on the internet where they show how deep the follicle is and show mm etc? Anyone have those? I can't seem to find them again.



Where can I find proper instructions to use it? Simpler ones. Do I just get out of the shower, or wash my face. Then right after that use it on my face, then apply cream? Then rinse in warm water?

For hair or face...does it need to be washed prior to treatment? Does it need to be wet? Can it be wet? Might be slightly more convenient. Once I use it, do I apply minoxidil afterwards, right after I rolled it on my hair IN ONE DIRECTION.

Why do they recommend rolling in only one direction? from hairline backwards.


Thanks for any help. I am really interested in maximizing my results.

 

[joseph49853]

Hard to determne an exact depth. Based on this picture, there might be less benefit going beyond 1.5mm. My biggest concern would be a possible disturbance of the hair bulb in its earliest anagen phase.

To be honest, I actually find 1mm far more painful than 1.5mm. 1.5mm gives an oddly pleasurable sensation of relief, while I find 1mm to be extremely irritating. Currently I'm only doing two deep passes (in one direction) with my 1.5 dermaroller.

 

[KeepTheHair]

Thanks for the reply. Seems 1mm can't damage a hair follicle. But 1.5 miiiiiight, probably not at all. But anything greater than 1.5 is complete overkill.

I think 1mm is fine and I hope I have a different experience than you.


Do you mind answering my previous questions about the usage?

thanks man

 

[rfaust]

Thanks for the pics, Joseph. You have the exact same hair type as I do, though right now mine looks roughly the same as your 'after' ones. Possibly better.

No offense to anyone here, and I'm happy that this has provided inspiration (it has for me too) - but those pictures don't show any definitive progress. It seems that Joseph's hairstyle is a little different in the second set of pictures (a bit more wild with some hair going forward or in other directions, compared to his first set where his hair is combed back all around). It's also significantly darker, which, when you're comparing hairline pictures can mask the degree of recession. I know this firsthand because my hair is thick enough to do the same thing. Despite being a nw1 right now, I can take pictures that make me look like I'm close to NW0 even with hair going straight back. It's deceptive.

Joseph, I'm definitely going to try out needling. But I'm curious if you have more recent pictures than your 2008/2009 ones. You claimed somewhere in this thread to be around a NW0, but I don't see it from the ones you've provided. Your second set of pictures make you look like a NW1.5 or NW2, even.

 

[joseph49853]

Thanks for the reply. Seems 1mm can't damage a hair follicle. But 1.5 miiiiiight, probably not at all. But anything greater than 1.5 is complete overkill.

I think 1mm is fine and I hope I have a different experience than you.


Do you mind answering my previous questions about the usage?

thanks man

$250 seems excessive for even the most sophisticated vibrating dermaroller. There has been no difference between my genuine dermaroller and the cheap eBay knockoff in both quality and effectiveness. Returning yours would be my suggestion

To answer a few of your q's, you can use the dermaroller with either a wet or dry head. A wet head makes it slightly more tolerable. Just realize that needling on a wet head can further compound systemic absorption.

For the pain intolerant there's always ice or a lidocaine solution. Just be sure to wash off any remaining topical anesthetic before needling for the obvious reasons.

I'm also becoming daily convinced that (for me) 1.5mm is just fine. At 2mm, you'd be closer to poking past the basal layer near the dermis. How much this matters is undetermined and might need further experimentation. I personally will no longer bother with 1mm.

Oh, going in one direction avoids pulling hairs from your head. No reason to over think something so simple. Most importantly always make sure your dermaroller is properly sterilized. Good luck.

 

[joseph49853]

Thanks for the pics, Joseph. You have the exact same hair type as I do, though right now mine looks roughly the same as your 'after' ones. Possibly better.

No offense to anyone here, and I'm happy that this has provided inspiration (it has for me too) - but those pictures don't show any definitive progress. It seems that Joseph's hairstyle is a little different in the second set of pictures (a bit more wild with some hair going forward or in other directions, compared to his first set where his hair is combed back all around). It's also significantly darker, which, when you're comparing hairline pictures can mask the degree of recession. I know this firsthand because my hair is thick enough to do the same thing. Despite being a nw1 right now, I can take pictures that make me look like I'm close to NW0 even with hair going straight back. It's deceptive.

Joseph, I'm definitely going to try out needling. But I'm curious if you have more recent pictures than your 2008/2009 ones. You claimed somewhere in this thread to be around a NW0, but I don't see it from the ones you've provided. Your second set of pictures make you look like a NW1.5 or NW2, even.

If your hairline resembles my 2009 pictures then you are nowhere near registering on the Norwood scale. If you look like my first set, then you are around a Norwood 1.5-2, which would cause anyone to obsess on a hairloss forum.

I actually find the Alvi Armani Hair Loss Scale to be a far more practical guide.

The 2006 pictures are professional outdoor wedding shots. Uncharacteristically I'm wearing a ton of hair spray in them. The second set were taken indoor, straight shampoo with no conditioner. I actually had my Flowbee set much longer in those 2006 pictures. Otherwise my hair is as always tightly combed back.

I was able to use a 'guide' mole to ascertain that my 2009 hairline is approximately where it was before my hair began receding. You can easily see where my temples moved down and forward. Examine enough hairloss pictures ove the years and you get better at analyzing and dissecting them for even the most minute changes.

Three things to extrapolate from my HQ/LQ photos a) needling/wounding at a depth of 1-1.5mm can increase scalp health b) you can maintain finasteride dependent hair after cessation and even regrow new hair c) topicals can work in synergy to regrow hair. My only setback was going from a 1.5mm to 1mm and topical DIM. I probably wouldn't otherwise be on this forum.

I might even get brave enough once again to eliminate minoxidil from my topical regimen. I had actually ran out of minoxidil in 2008 for two months and experienced no ill effects. This demonstrated to me that needling can have a very long-lasting and profound effect on hair growth.

I do notice since the creation of this thread dermaroller knockoffs have become less pricey and abundantly available. So those with a moderate pain threshold have little excuse now. And certainly needling/wounding only appears crude and barbaric while continuing to remain underground. Western patentable science will eventually make the practice more mainstream.

If you decide to needle, I hope you post pictures and add to the reservoir of knowledge... which is basically the initial purpose of the thread. Good luck.

 

[joseph49853]

I still have fluff there. What do you reckon my chances are of getting them back.

Cheers again

Somehow I missed completely answering your question. If those hair are miniaturized or even worse the follicles dormant or resting then you still have a very good chance. Good luck.

 

[rfaust]

If your hairline resembles my 2009 pictures then you are nowhere near registering on the Norwood scale. If you look like my first set, then you are around a Norwood 1.5-2, which would cause anyone to obsess on a hairloss forum.

Hmm. Well, my head from the top looks like the NW1 picture, but my hairline from the side view looks more like a 1.5 (hasn't quite aligned itself with the sideburns).

I guess I'm about a 1.5? I'm definitely in better shape than your first set. It's just hard to tell what your hair is like in the second picture, for me, since it is so dark. The darkness + different hairstyle just makes your progress seem nebulous. But you acknowledged that you wish you'd taken better pictures, along with mentioning vellus hairs, so I'm not worried about it.

I've been using Miconazole Nitrate lately (sporadically, using a dermafungal + water mix that has the consistency of s5 lotion). Haven't noticed a big difference. Have you? Also, for your minoxidil solution do you use dr lee's night time formula (it contains retin-a). Or do you mix your own on the spot, much like you do with the rest of your concoction?

 

[Jacob]

The vibrating roller shouldn't cost you anywhere near $250. See Ebay..for one. They also have a different needle design. Whether that makes a difference or not, who knows :dunno:

In most cases the better rollers will last a lot longer than the cheaper ones. Stay "sharper" etc.

 

[KeepTheHair]

I bought 2 rollers and a lot of cream for my face. I think it is about 50 or so for a roller. 13 for 1 cream, I bought 2. Also 35 for a big cream. I want to us this stuff on my back and face also, since I have had some acne there for a few months. A lot of money I know. But will last me quite some time. It is not only for my hair. They don't vibrate lol. Seeing as though I live in a third world country, maybe the shipping was a lot anyway, whatever.

Anxious to try this once it gets here...


Do you guys think that someone can experience regrowth without using any minoxidil or etc and ONLY uses a derma roller on the hair? Or is it just the fact that it makes minoxidil absorb that it works?

 

[Mr. P]

From what I've read, it's mostly to enhance the use of a product such as minoxidil.

 

[BrightonBaldy]

From what I've read, it's mostly to enhance the use of a product such as minoxidil.

Doesn't the skin increasing its collagen to heal the wounds also boost hair loss?

Infact if somebody can confirm that this is the case, would adding a topical collagen booster or a supplement be worthwhile?

 

[BrightonBaldy]

I have alot to learn about adding anything to minoxidil!

Interesting stuff Joseph, I used my dermaroller for the first time tonight and then washed my hair with nizoral, theres no question whatsoever theres greater penetration as you can feel the difference instantly.

I've now applied my Regaine and again it feels different, I want to add some of the products you say work for you but I've no idea where to look or what I need.

I've a nw1 hairline and no bald areas (yet), just major thinning in the horse shoe pattern, I need to give the remaining hair a boost and grow anything I can, without destroying the hair I have.

My hairs buzzed down so anything is easily applied.

Just a small update to say that I still feel the difference when applying minoxidil and when using nizoral (use nizoral daily and regaine twice a day), obviously too early to say if anything will happen but my scalps getting more of both than ever before.

One issue I have with the roller (a cheap one of ebay, I'm considering getting a better one) is the number of times I should be using it, I dont have any hair to cover up the little bleeding spots and although I wash my hair after using it they sometimes take more than 24 hours to heal (1mm depth).

I thought going for a 1mm depth roller would make it easier to use everyday, as any deeper I'd be walking around with cuts all over me that would look 100% worse than anything male pattern baldness could do for me.

Any tips from the pros here on how best to get wounds to heal quickly? Atm I'm left with 3 or 4 random bleeds each time, when they take more than 1 day to heal it obviously looks alot worse.

Still feeling confident about this, if I was ever going to respond to topical's then I will now.

 

[KeepTheHair]

I don't think you are supposed to bleed man.

 

[joseph49853]

From what I've read, it's mostly to enhance the use of a product such as minoxidil.

Doesn't the skin increasing its collagen to heal the wounds also boost hair loss?

Infact if somebody can confirm that this is the case, would adding a topical collagen booster or a supplement be worthwhile?

Collagen helps support scalp health and hair growth. You lose collagen with age. Decreased collagen means thinner hair. Needling helps to increase collagen production, along with proper diet and supplementation: vitamin C, msm, silica, aminos, zinc/copper, vitamin E etc.

The depth of an individuals epidermal layers varies based on several factors. The blood supply starts slightly past the epidermis. Your epidermis might just be really thin. Some bleeding is good. Perhaps the epidermis in the average scalp is somewhere in the range of .5mm in depth, just a guess. Even if you press hard with 1mm it probably only enters to a depth of .7mm, even less with a bundle of hair in the way.

Needling 1-2x weekly should be a nice compromise between efficacy and safety. You can also increase wound healing with topicals and oral supplementation: vitamin D3 (5000IU daily, tocotrienols, curcumin, green and black tea, quercetin, rosemary extract, holy basil, grape seed extract, nattokinase, milk thistle... and many more also PEMF (especially in the nanosecond range) works excellently.

 

[joseph49853]

If your hairline resembles my 2009 pictures then you are nowhere near registering on the Norwood scale. If you look like my first set, then you are around a Norwood 1.5-2, which would cause anyone to obsess on a hairloss forum.

Hmm. Well, my head from the top looks like the NW1 picture, but my hairline from the side view looks more like a 1.5 (hasn't quite aligned itself with the sideburns).

I guess I'm about a 1.5? I'm definitely in better shape than your first set. It's just hard to tell what your hair is like in the second picture, for me, since it is so dark. The darkness + different hairstyle just makes your progress seem nebulous. But you acknowledged that you wish you'd taken better pictures, along with mentioning vellus hairs, so I'm not worried about it.

I've been using Miconazole Nitrate lately (sporadically, using a dermafungal + water mix that has the consistency of s5 lotion). Haven't noticed a big difference. Have you? Also, for your minoxidil solution do you use dr lee's night time formula (it contains retin-a). Or do you mix your own on the spot, much like you do with the rest of your concoction?

I have nothing to prove or gain from posting here. I'm not trying to be a needling/wounding proselytizer. My only initial attempt was to share my experiences and successes. I've also experienced my share of failures. I guess I've remained here, when time has permitted itself, for those who want to help themselves.

Just to repeat, of all my hair growing attempts, needling remains my greatest success with the fewest sides.The difference between my hair's appearance from three years ago is night and day. Otherwise I would have moved on from the practice long ago.

Actually, pre-needling (and topicals) I avoided cameras, mirrors and wore baseball caps. Post-needling, I only discovered my hairloss regimen was truly working by proxy with continuing compliments from friends and family. What a revelation. That was the start of looking myself square in the mirror again. This eventually gave me the courage to actively document my progress with a camera.

In fact, I recommend everyone get brutally honest and take enough pictures with a decent quality digital camera. Take pics of a fully wet head from several different angles every few days. Using the macro will let you know whether your regimen is working in weeks instead of months. Don't keep yourself in the dark and make the same mistake I made. I regret not having many pictures from my days on finasteride alone.

More importantly take matters into your own hands. Try everything within reason that has been proven to grow hair. Give everything you attempt a reasonable amount of time. Realize that it takes time for your hair to cycle back to the anagen phase.

As for micanonazole nitrate, it's hard for me to fully gauge the effect. I introduced too many new items in the last few weeks. On retin-a, I purchased really cheap tubes at alldaychemist.com, and apply it first before any topicals.