Skin Needling

[BrightonBaldy]

Think I've got it sorted, did one pass rather than 4/5 before applying minoxidil last night and the tingling effect was the same even though the rolling wasnt as severe. Maybe my skin is thinner, just need to take it easy.

Joseph, your contributions are most welcome, stick around.

 

[Jacob]

I haven't read this entire thread..so maybe these have been posted before. Some of the better 'rollers: http://www.ultramodshop.com/categories/Derma-Rollers/

The vibrating one(not the cheapest source..but a good description): http://www.makemeheal.com/mmh/product.do?id=59153&procid=50

 

[BrightonBaldy]

Do we ever get to a stage where our eyes dont water with the pain?

 

[Petchsky]

Good to hear you're still holding strong Monty.

My derma roller arrived about a week ago, used it twice since then, it's a .5mm needle length, so not the longest.

Thoughts so far....

It hurts in some places more than others, i'm primarily using it on sides, hairline, and thin patch at the crown, pain is tolerable, no blood but quite red afterwards. I have noticed that when I use my minoxidil topical afterwards my scalp seems to drink the minoxidil, soaks it up faster than when applying minoxidil without the needling.

From now i'm going to use it on Monday and Thursdays, so 2x a week for 6 months and then see from there... unk:

 

[BrightonBaldy]

The pain isnt so bad, you just need to suck it up, I think I've perfected my rolling technique... I give myself 3-4 real hard passes with the roller, forwards at the front and backwards at the back, all natural arm movements and angles, so I can do it quick, if you you guys have ever been in the fight... it feels a little like a smack to the face, 20-30 seconds of hard rolling (very sore) but within another 30 seconds the pain is gone.

:smack:


Just need to look a bit more closely at what I should be putting on my head now, I'm taking in everything I read here in.

It really has to be natural only for scalp penetration, anything else could be rejected and will cause a hell of a mess.

 

[arison]

damaging the scalp by applying too much retina a and i would realize more hair would grow in the spot once it healed

so i defintley would like to try this cuz i think it would work

is their like yourube video or something that show's u how to do skin needling?

 

[big3nme]

I am very interested in trying out needling. The idea of using your bodies ability to repair itself seems like a great approach. I recently watched an extremely fascinating talk on TED about angiogenesis ( http://www.ted.com/talks/william_li.html ). Everyone should watch this video (he talks mainly about cancer, but If I remember correctly he mentions hair loss in one of his slides). I feel like needling works in a similar fashion.

I was wondering if there's been an agreement on what length needles are good for the scalp? After reading several pages in this thread it seems people are using needles anywhere from .5mm to 1.5mm I was considering getting a .75mm roller off ebay. Im actually interested in trying it on my face as well, as I have scars from chicken pox // acne.

How often do you guys "roll" ? Seems like once or twice a week is enough?

I plan on using this in conjunction with Retin-A + minoxidil topicals.. any issues with this?

 

[BrightonBaldy]

I roll every night before applying my pre-bed minoxidil, I've no idea if it does more harm than good.

 

[Petchsky]

I use it 2x a week at the moment, but only just started.

If you use it on your face i'd advise also using copper peptides afterwards, maybe even emu oil if that's not overkill.

On the skin biology site forum there are photos of women who used needling and copper peptides and made their stretch marks disappear.

 

[BrightonBaldy]

I've been holding firm with regaine, nizoral everyday and a random nettle hair grow paste for 5 months now, been rolling a few weeks now too, get sides from finasteride so have been putting a little in the minoxidil every few days.

Anyway, I've now noticed regrowth at the hair line, small white hairs right along the front, really hope something comes of this as rolling has been the only new addition to the routine and I've got my technique there sorted.

Fingers crossed.

 

[joseph49853]

Anyone out there have experiece of using the roller whilst shedding but not simultaneously using either finasteride or dutasteride. i would really like to know if shedding ceased or slowed down as a result of the roller, and what kind of time period. I was kind of hoping there would be some kind of shock to the system and I would notice some measure of hair loss reduction fairly quickly.

I definitely shed less after starting needling/wounding. Though I never was much of a shedder, even with oral finasteride. Only topical anti-androgens make me shed like crazy, which is a recent phenomenon. Currently I'm getting around 5-10 hairs on average in the shower without using minoxidil or finasteride.

Anyhow, I took a recent serious look at my high-res hair pics from the last two years. My overall growth was at its absolute health and height with topical lithium (orotate,) EGCG, MSM (or DMSO,) cayenne etc. I was getting crazy hair growth especially at the hairline, temples and crown. I took for granted how well it worked. Those new terminal hairs seem DHT resistant till this day. The two or three that grew a half-an-inch from my hairline remain strong.

Therefore, even though lithium orotate gave me SEVERE hypothyroid-like symptoms, I'm giving it another try. Except I've lowered the topical concentration to .3%. So far so good.

I also got enough courage to discontinue minoxidil and shift toward a topical polyphenol formulation: tea catechins and theaflavins, apple procyandins, soy isoflavones, grapeseed proanthocyanidins, and sangre de drago. I'm currently mixing my topicals with dimethyl isosorbide and MSM. I eventually might get myself some DMSO. BTW, theaflavins are especially staining, still a distant second to curcumin though.

I also have considerable proof that 1.5mm needles (at least for me) aren't enough to harm even surface follicles re-entering anagen in the thinnest epidermal areas. Hairs in those areas continue to re-emerge and thrive. In some places the 1.5mm needles still don't fully penetrate the epidermis. As a matter of fact, I probably have a thinner than average scalp epidermis from three years of topical retin-a. So I'm no longer concerned in the least about 1.5mm needles, although I continue to monitor.

Otherwise after the pain subsides from 1.5mm needles, I get the feeling of absolute relief. The magnitude of pulsation is hard to describe, other than outrageously euphoric. I can only marginally equate it to the relief of unbuttoning your pants after a huge meal or perhaps vigorous scalp massage.

 

[joseph49853]

The vibrating roller shouldn't cost you anywhere near $250. See Ebay..for one. They also have a different needle design. Whether that makes a difference or not, who knows :dunno:

In most cases the better rollers will last a lot longer than the cheaper ones. Stay "sharper" etc.

I literally had my first dermaroller knockoff dislodge needles into my scalp after a month, only to exhume them using a pair of tweezers.

Although I can personally vouch for the MNS Micro Nurse System rollers. They can be found for an even cheaper price on eBay. They come vacuum sealed in a foil pouch and are of very good quality, probably staying sharp around 8-12 months. I would easily place them around the same quality as an original dermaroller.

 

[rfaust]

I've been doing this for a couple of weeks now (2 or 3 times per week). I wonder if I'm doing it right. I do 4 passes in one direction all around the hairline, then do the same number of passes in various areas of my scalp after parting the hair. I get slight redness in the areas I covered and when I apply minoxidil, it stings slightly. At one point I tried 10 passes everywhere, and that's when the stinging pain persisted for nearly a week. I was concerned that I had overdone it that one time.

I have also noticed that I shed very little now compared to before (although, before starting needling, I wasn't shedding much to begin with). I can vigorously rub my hands over my scalp for a minute straight and about 5-8 hairs fall out. I've also noticed that my scalp itches quite a bit. I scratch it fairly frequently. Still, despite this I shed very little. I recall shedding a considerably larger amount (40-50 hairs from rubbing my scalp for a minute) before I started minoxidil about a year ago, and maybe 10-20 before I started needling.

Shedding used to be especially bad when my scalp itched and nowadays it seems to almost be a good sign. I wondered if it could be the PPG, but my scalp has never itched quite this much when I was on minoxidil before.

Joseph, have some tips for mixing custom polyphenol/lithium orotate/other supplement solutions?

 

[joseph49853]

Retin-a thins out the epidermis over time. Though it also normalizes the stratum corneum and increases cell proliferation and thickness of the dermis. Cessation eventually reverses this process over a period of years.

Polyphenols are hair growth stimulators similar in their effect to minoxidil. Another great polyphenol is to be found with blueberry anthocyanins (especially wild blueberry.) Might be too messy and staining in a topical though, haven't tried it yet.

Sangre de Drago sap also has one of the highest concentrations of proanthocyanidin compounds, around 90 percent by volume. You'll likely increase your degree of success using polyphenols in combination. Not to mention, these things are really inexpensive additions to any topical.

 

[JLL]

Retin-a thins out the epidermis over time. Though it also normalizes the stratum corneum and increases cell proliferation and thickness of the dermis. Cessation eventually reverses this process over a period of years.

Thins out the epidermis? I think retinoids thicken the epidermis.

One mechanism behind some of the beneficial effects of retinoid is an increase in the thickness of the skin. Even though retinoids actually thin the stratum corneum – the strong, flexible and dry outermost surface of the skin – they thicken the epidermis and the dermis underneath it (link). The end result is a thicker, more youthful looking skin.

See e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2880508/

And, in any case, in human experiments retinoids grew hair in more than half the participants.

 

[joseph49853]

Thanks for the post JLL. My understanding always had been, based on a decade-old conservation with a dermatologist regarding retinoids, while the epidermis increases density of collagen, fibroblasts, elastin etc., it's thinned with exfoliation of the outermost epidermal layer. You basically get a thinner more densely packed epidermis.

With some reading and photographic evidence, I now see this is mostly incorrect. The epidermis might become thinner in spots, but overall it gains uniform thickness. This reverses the process of a thinner epidermis with a thicker stratum corneum comprising more and more of dead cells as we become aged.

 

[billythekid]

any updates guys?

are topicals important when skin needling?

 

[Petchsky]

I'm still needling, and so far so good. Definitely aids topical absorption, but way to soon to see regrowth, only been doing it about a month.

I'm doing it 2x a week, although going easier on my scalp now as before my scalp was real sore for a good few hours after....think I must have a pretty thin scalp as the needles on my dermaroller are only 0.5mm.

 

[flamingpie]

this has probably been answered earlier in the thread, but on days that you needle how long do you wait before applying your topical(s)?

and also how long can one dermaroller last?

 

[Petchsky]

I apply it straight away.

Not sure how long the serma roller will last for, but I see no reason why it won't last a long time.