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Follicles never die, their DP cell count just diminishes.
Shiseido Hair Loss Clinical Trial To Begin
- Thread starter Swoop
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Follicles never die, their DP cell count just diminishes.
I wish you were right but it doesn't make sense. They would have gotten way more than $4 million.
thomps1523
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So what causes the state of no return if they never die? Fibrosis making the skin to deep for enough cells to migrate?
Blackber
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You keep spreading wrong information. I've already quoted a link in this thread that shows the FIRST payment was for $4mil with additional milestone payments totaling $31mil ***PLUS*** sales royalties. Not sure how much easier I can make it so you have the right information.
If you're too lazy to go back and read the whole thread and refer to sourced material then don't spread your assumption as gospel.
http://replicel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/RepliCel-Fact-Sheet-Feb-2016.pdf
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I didn't see that link. I didn't go back to previous posts to search for the information because I didn't know the info was back there in a previous post. Someone else posted mater of factly that Shiseido paid $4 million to Replicel and I'm aware you said the contract provides for other potential payments to Replicel but I didn't see where you included any factual info in that post.
That having been said, $31 million is certainly more than $4 million. No question about that. Plus sales royalties adds even more so Shiseido will pay Replicel a significant amount of money for the technology *if* the technology proves successful. And if the treatment is significantly better than present treatments then Shiseido got a great deal. And Replicel maybe had to give Shiseido a great deal because Replicel maybe didn't have the resources to move the treatment forward.
So yes, the entirety of the potential payout does change things but I'm still not very hopeful because of the poor results from the first study. I hope it turns out to be a breakthrough treatment but I just don't feel the love at this point in time.
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Something that I think you fail to realize is that even if all the shiseido treatment winds up doing is immunizing/revitalizing existing hair, it's still a win. For me, if I can hold on to what I have until this comes out, then get it immunized and an FUE...I'll be a fullhead again.
For many people, a less than best case scenario on this treatment will, combined with other treatments, effectively be a cure.
For many people, a less than best case scenario on this treatment will, combined with other treatments, effectively be a cure.
Blackber
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Another thing to consider is as much as we want these companies to cater to us presently there will be a never ending supply of people who will need this treatment. If this (or any other treatment) doesn't provide regrowth a lot of us will view it as a failure but if it let's you permanently maintain your hair its a HUGE win for these companies moving forward and still a win for hair loss sufferers who can get a hair transplant and effectively achieve a full head of hair.
"immunizing/revitalizing existing hair"
Revitalizing existing hair sounds plausible because for some people minoxidil and propecia already do that but to immunize hair against DHT is something that has never been accomplished before. Do you have a link to even one credible researcher stating at a respected hair symposium or in a credible scientific journal that he has developed technology that immunizes hair against DHT?
If it didn't immunize the hair then it would just essentially be the same thing as histogen but more inconvenient so they must be confident to continue with the technology. To continue trials if they didn't have some good reason to believe it could immunize the hair would make no sense. I doubt they'd have a 3 year trial for something that doesn't give permanent results what would be the point?
If it wasn't permanent the effects would wear off before 3 years are up. Also if this can in fact return follicles to normal function the 3 year length would make sense as it would probably take a couple years for the follicles to return to normal thickness and strength.
Permanently immunizing hairs would be almost as impressive as growing back new hair!
And could this really be achieved just by injecting derma cup cells? How would they migrate to the follicles and by what mechanism would they pass on their resistant characteristics to the existing follicle while simultaneously ridding it of sensitivity?
I've never heard of such a thing before in medicine; injecting something around another that changes the fundamentals of that second thing.
Also when you hear Hoffman speak about using these same cells to treat tendonitis and for "fine wrinkles on the face" you just think snake oil. Yes Hoffman really did say that at the recent congress in Georgia. He also specified "not for deep wrinkles".
And could this really be achieved just by injecting derma cup cells? How would they migrate to the follicles and by what mechanism would they pass on their resistant characteristics to the existing follicle while simultaneously ridding it of sensitivity?
I've never heard of such a thing before in medicine; injecting something around another that changes the fundamentals of that second thing.
Also when you hear Hoffman speak about using these same cells to treat tendonitis and for "fine wrinkles on the face" you just think snake oil. Yes Hoffman really did say that at the recent congress in Georgia. He also specified "not for deep wrinkles".
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Permanently immunizing hairs would be almost as impressive as growing back new hair!
And could this really be achieved just by injecting derma cup cells? How would they migrate to the follicles and by what mechanism would they pass on their resistant characteristics to the existing follicle while simultaneously ridding it of sensitivity?
I've never heard of such a thing before in medicine; injecting something around another that changes the fundamentals of that second thing.
Also when you hear Hoffman speak about using these same cells to treat tendonitis and for "fine wrinkles on the face" you just think snake oil. Yes Hoffman really did say that at the recent congress in Georgia. He also specified "not for deep wrinkles".
that's my number one hang up when it comes to this treatment, how the cells migrate to where they are needed. As far as how they rid sensitivity to DHT it was my understanding the cup cells replace the existing damaged cells but I could be wrong.
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An excellent question, I should have asked that at the conference!!!
Blackber
Experienced Member
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I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to ask at a future conference.
On another somewhat related note... If fibrosis was the point of no return then how do transplanted follicles survive in parts of the scalp that are balding and being affected by fibrosis?
...you're kidding, right?
This is the entire point of RepliCel's tech. Their end goal was to hopefully regrow follicles, but it looks like that's not the case. I don't have to link you to anything because you can go to RepliCel's website, read about it, read their Phase I results, find other links, watch videos etc. The idea is that by injecting cup sheath cells from resistant hairs on the back of the head, the damage done to the cells in the weakened hair is healed and should inherit the resistance of the cells from the hair at the back and sides.
You're assuming they have found a way to immunize hair follicles against DHT because the trial is 3 years long?????
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Even the resistant follicles in the back of the head will get short and fine over time. Have you never seen how old men have very sparse thin short hairs in the back of their heads later in their lives? Walk around the malls one evening and you'll see 20 guys like that after a couple hours.
Permanently immunizing hairs would be almost as impressive as growing back new hair!
And could this really be achieved just by injecting derma cup cells? How would they migrate to the follicles and by what mechanism would they pass on their resistant characteristics to the existing follicle while simultaneously ridding it of sensitivity?
I've never heard of such a thing before in medicine; injecting something around another that changes the fundamentals of that second thing.
Also when you hear Hoffman speak about using these same cells to treat tendonitis and for "fine wrinkles on the face" you just think snake oil. Yes Hoffman really did say that at the recent congress in Georgia. He also specified "not for deep wrinkles".
I agree. If they found a way to immunize the existing follicles all over your head that would be huge. They can't do it YET. Nobody's done it YET.
Also, the idea that taking cells from the donor area and injecting them into the scalp will produce COMPLETELY resistant follicles is wishful thinking. There are millions and millions of men (usually after 60 but sometimes as early as their 20s) who's donor areas start producing sparse, fine, short baby hairs and I don't think most of us would be happy with those kinds of hairs over our entire heads. It would be better than being bald but I think we all want longer thick hairs that are jam-packed densely over the scalp.
we get it you have an irrational hatred for replicel for what ever reason.
But the fact is if this does not immunize hairs to the effects of DHT they would not continue it makes no sense. If all it does is possibly promote regrowth and thickening like you're stating why would they continue? Histogen will be available probably before this and does exactly that without having to take a punch biopsy out of your head, you just get injections and go. So no one would pay for replicel.
and no I'm not saying because the trial is 3 years in length it means they've found a way to immunize hairs but it makes sense to monitor long term if they did find a way (which they probably did which is why they called it a "practical cure").
think about what you're saying logically it makes zero sense
No, as a matter of fact, the vast majority I see still have grey/white hairs that look perfectly fine. Even if they've got a little thinner, would you rather that all over your head or nothing? Besides, by the time I'm in my 60s and hopefully I'll be dead by then, they'll have had 40 years to improve upon this new tech so I'm not too concerned. The absolute worst case scenario here is that you'd have to get multiple treatments over the course of your life.
It absolutely astounds me how so many balding guys whine incessantly about and cast pessimistic doubt fueled by broscience upon the awesome treatments in the pipeline. Like, beggars can't be choosers here.