Numerous vitamin supplements?

freakout

Experienced Member
Bryan, the study you posted sucks. This panel of reviewers from EPSA do not speak well of biotin. Where did you get the study anyway?? It looks "androgenetic" was inserted into the text.

The question I had was: if biotin was that effective, why hasnt it grabbed the market over a span of 22 years? Looks like I'm back to what I said previewly - NO supplements have been proven to address male pattern baldness!!

It even appears Floersheim GL lied.

European Food Safety Authority (EFSA)

A total of 23 references were cited to substantiate the claimed effect of which 13 were textbooks or opinions of scientific bodies in which the claimed effect was not stated and five were references related to other health effects. The Panel considers that no conclusions could be drawn from these references for the scientific substantiation of the claimed effect.

Five references described human studies which examined the effect of biotin supplementation on brittle fingernails.

Three uncontrolled, non-blinded studies were provided in which (a) women with nail hardness disorders were given 2.5 mg biotin daily for six to 10 months and nail quality was assessed by subject interview (Floersheim, 1989), (b) adolescents and adults with alopecia and nail quality disorders were given 2.5 mg biotin daily for six to 15 months and nail quality was assessed by subjective reporting (Floersheim, 1992), and (c) adults diagnosed with nail splitting or brittle nails were given 1 to 3 mg biotin daily for 1.5 to 7 months and nail quality was assessed using a questionnaire sent to patients and telephone survey (Hochman et al., 1993). The Panel notes that these studies were not blinded, did not control for factors other than biotin that might have influenced the outcome, that no objective methods were used to determine changes in nail quality, and the doses studied were considerably higher than the ones proposed in the conditions of use, all of which limit the value of the studies as a source of data. As a follow-up to the Floersheim study (1989), nail thickness was assessed using scanning electron microscopy in women with brittle nails of unknown aetiology (excluding women with a specific diagnosis of a nail dystrophy) given 2.5 mg biotin daily for six to 15 months (Colombo et al., 1990). The Panel notes that the study was not blinded, did not control for factors other than biotin that might have influenced the outcome, and that the dose studied was considerably higher than the ones proposed in the conditions of use, all of which limit the value of the study as a source of data.

A double-blind placebo controlled intervention (Gehring, 1996) included 60 subjects with reduced nail quality randomly assigned to consume either placebo (n=30) or 2.5 mg of biotin (n=30) daily for six months. Inclusion criteria were adults above 18 years of age with brittle, splintered or soft nails of unknown origin. Exclusion criteria were known nail disorders, such as mycosis, psoriasis and Lichen ruber, pregnancy, severe neurological, mental or internal disorders, biotin deficiency, concurrent medication and participation in other studies less then four weeks prior to the start of the intervention. Three subjects in each group were excluded from statistical analysis for different reasons. The swelling behaviour of nail keratin after incubation with sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and transonychial water loss were measured after three and six months. The Panel considers that the evidence provided does not establish that these assays are appropriate measures of nail quality. In addition, clinical judgement by the investigator and the subject was used. The Panel notes that no information was provided on the nature of the clinical examination carried out by the investigator or on the aspects of nail quality considered by the subjects, and that the dose studied was considerably higher than the doses proposed in the conditions of use, all of which limit the value of the study as a source of data.

In weighing the evidence, the Panel took into account that all but one of the studies were not blinded and did not control for factors other than biotin that might have influenced the outcome, that in three of the five studies no objective methods to determine changes in nail quality were used, that the evidence provided in the remaining study did not establish that the endpoints used in this study are appropriate measures of nail quality and that in all studies the doses studied were considerably higher than the ones proposed in the conditions of use.

The Panel concludes that a cause and effect relationship has not been established between the dietary intake of biotin and maintenance of normal nails.
 

The Natural

Established Member
s.a.f said:
Idiot, when it comes to hair you are a slave to the follicles sensitivity to DHT. All you need to do is take a look around at other men to realise that nutrition and m.p.b are not connected. Do you think Patrick Dempsey spends all day popping vitamin pills. Maybe he does? Maybe he'd be a NW7 without them? But keep taking the vitamins I'm sure your Horseshoe will be lovely and shiney looking. I'm just trying to give people the real truth on here rather than false hope.

Again, the "truth" is that you, s.a.f., are ignorant. Period. So I shall take the liberty of educating your simple ***: Natural treatments include not only vitamins, but also minerals and herbs. And they have been used both internally and topically to successfully reduce/stop hair loss and regrow hair.

What on earth, pray tell, does Patrick Dempsey have to do with this discussion, unless he is a spokenman for Propecia or Rogaine. I do remember, though, NBA Hall of Famer Karl Malone, The Mailman, promoting Minoxidil for a while...and now, he is just ball-headed (I mean, bald-headed).

Mind your manners, Huckleberry.


resveratrol, curcumin, and hair loss:
1. http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo= ... SPLAY=DESC

And the results: "...while the group treated with resveratrol and curcumin showed with great surprise a reduction, sometimes also relevant, in variable time periods. Moreover, during this testing, the patients treated with resveratrol and curcumin surprisingly showed positive improvements in the treatment of psoriasis and the attenuation and even a stop of the hair loss, a reduction of the hair graying and the rebirth of hair in bald areas sometimes even of the original color too."

tocotrienols and hair loss:
2. http://www.regrowshair.com/non-surgical- ... hair-loss/

vitamin C and hair:
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19416266
 

The Natural

Established Member
freakout said:
Couldn't agree more. Supplements have not been proven to even work a tiny bit. Products that claim to do so are snake oils.

A fraud, you mean, like the book that you try to peddle on unsuspecting newbies.

You "broke the mystery of Male Pattern Baldness." Yea, sure you did, Buckwheat. With what? Rogaine? Please ask their former spokesman, Karl Malone, exactly what it did for him.

Look, take that book of yours, douse it with some of that Rogaine, light a match, and make a nice little Girl Scout campfire, for you and your BFF, s.a.f.
 

The Natural

Established Member
Nashville Hairline said:
I'd love if supplements did actually work but while I'm seeing not a single human on the internet who can show pictures of maintenance or improvement of male pattern baldness over time with just supplements then I have to assume the "success" stories are the usual unverified testimonials.

Given your extended history at some of these hair loss forums, I was surprised to see your regimen of saw palmetto, cod liver oil, zinc, and B vitamins.

From what I have read and experienced, an internal regimen like this won't do much, if anything, for your hair loss. Further, if your EFAs are unbalanced, they could accelerate your hair loss.

DHT inhibitors like Saw Palmetto are not an effective long term treatment for hair loss. Neither are zinc and B vitamins. Any success that you experience with these herbs and vitamins will be brief, never to return, once your body has adjusted to them.
 

The Natural

Established Member
Thom said:
I took Biotin, Zinc, fish oils, iron, and Saw Palmetto and I took them for almost half a year. Like I said, I think my hair grew a bit faster but you're better off saving your money.

The same could be stated for your regimen, Thom. Unfortunately, it may very well look good on paper, and may even sound good to you, but in reality, these type of supplements won't do much of anything for your hair loss. This, I know from experience.
 

ukmale24

Established Member
The Natural, would you say MSM, curcumin, Reservatrol, Soy Isoflavones and Taurine sounds like a good natural regimen?
 

Nashville Hairline

Experienced Member
The Natural said:
[quote="Nashville Hairline":1s2c3609]I'd love if supplements did actually work but while I'm seeing not a single human on the internet who can show pictures of maintenance or improvement of male pattern baldness over time with just supplements then I have to assume the "success" stories are the usual unverified testimonials.

Given your extended history at some of these hair loss forums, I was surprised to see your regimen of saw palmetto, cod liver oil, zinc, and B vitamins.

From what I have read and experienced, an internal regimen like this won't do much, if anything, for your hair loss. Further, if your EFAs are unbalanced, they could accelerate your hair loss.

DHT inhibitors like Saw Palmetto are not an effective long term treatment for hair loss. Neither are zinc and B vitamins. Any success that you experience with these herbs and vitamins will be brief, never to return, once your body has adjusted to them.[/quote:1s2c3609]
Yes, I need to update that..I really only take zinc and vit B for dietary reasons, I've long since given up the idea that they are affecting my male pattern baldness on way or another. I've also dropped SP

Those studies you posted aren't great tbh - the Vitamin C one seems to be only its benefits to hair growth, there's no mention of male pattern baldness. The Tocotrienols one is with an extremely small sample size (only 19 people, with only 11 taking the supps) and isn't double-blinded so is hugely unreliable. The Resv/Curc is also a very small study group
 

freakout

Experienced Member
Nashville Hairline said:
Those studies you (the Natural) posted aren't great tbh...

Nashville's got a clear state of mind.

ukmale24 said:
The Natural, would you say MSM, curcumin, Reservatrol, Soy Isoflavones and Taurine sounds like a good natural regimen?

Bad news for Resveratrol
European Food Safety Authority (EFSA)
Resveratrol

The Panel concludes that a cause and effect relationship has not been established between the consumption of the food(s)/food constituent(s) evaluated in this opinion and the protection of body cells and molecules such as DNA, proteins and lipids from oxidative damage.

The Panel considers that no evidence has been provided to establish that having antioxidant activity/content and/or antioxidant properties is a beneficial physiological effect.

The Panel concludes that a cause and effect relationship has not been established between the consumption of the food(s)/food constituent(s) evaluated in this opinion and a beneficial physiological effect related to antioxidant activity, antioxidant content, or antioxidant properties.

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/Doctor/1489.pdf
 

The Natural

Established Member
Nashville Hairline said:
Those studies you posted aren't great tbh - the Vitamin C one seems to be only its benefits to hair growth, there's no mention of male pattern baldness. The Tocotrienols one is with an extremely small sample size (only 19 people, with only 11 taking the supps) and isn't double-blinded so is hugely unreliable. The Resv/Curc is also a very small study group

Look, they are studies. I am not here to debate the size, shape, and/or color of them. What matters most is whether or not the said supplements work for you.

I tried tocotrienols, and they may have slowed my hair loss, but nothing like what some of the participants in this study experienced. And I do not recall reading about anyone in these forums stopping their hair loss with just tocotrienols.

Do you really think that I even considered the size of the Italian study before I tried curcumin and resveratrol. Man, I was looking for something, anything natural to stop my hair loss. Period. Fortunately, these two did for me (and others I have read).

What prompted you to compose a regimen of cod liver oil and saw palmetto? Was it a study?
 

freakout

Experienced Member
Quoting "studies" from commercial sites. You got to be kidding.
 

The Natural

Established Member
The information is provided by doctors, trained professionals. Not someone like you who, "broke the mystery of male pattern baldness." The title of your book, right. So what's the big mystery, freakout. Pray, allow us here to be priivy to it. But no, you won't do that, will you. You would rather have people pay you for it.

Ridiculous.
 

freakout

Experienced Member
I don't quote from the book because it's copyrighted. I do use the information sometimes without quoting just to drive a point.

For example, with it, I know why supplements NEVER WORK and people who are pushing it are no more than scammers.
 

The Natural

Established Member
You and your silly book are a j o k e. Please understand that no one with any marbles in their head will pay you a penny for your thoughts.
 

freakout

Experienced Member
Yeap, I know. At least I had the opportunity to tell them that supplements NEVER WORK which make the "doctors" in YOUR website quacks. Sorry you wasted your time.
 

The Natural

Established Member
freakout tell us: What is the answer to male pattern baldness?

You stated that you solved the mystery. Well, share it with everyone, then. Don't be selfish. LOL!

Dude!
 

freakout

Experienced Member
Sorry, no can do. Get on with your life and sell somewhere else. Your products won't get pass the people here.
 

The Natural

Established Member
freakout, you troll from forum to forum, peddling this book of yours. It's in your regimen, for goodness sakes.

And while everyone else here is sharing information, you are trying to get paid. You want people to buy your mystery novel.

Well damn it, I am not going to do it! No, no, no Huckleberry. So you might as well just tell all of us here how you broke the mystery of male pattern baldness.
 

Nashville Hairline

Experienced Member
The Natural said:
What prompted you to compose a regimen of cod liver oil and saw palmetto? Was it a study?
Yes there is actually a study of a saw palmetto/beta sitosterol combo that showed positive results for hair but as per your studies it was with a very small number of participants (only 19) i.e. interesting but just as unreliable as the studies you are posting

Cod Liver Oil probably came from the studies that showed essential fatty acids as having 5-ar inhibiting properties (hence why they are used in Revivogen) but as we should all know we would require an industrial amount of fish oil supps every day to even come close to the amounts of EFAs cited in these studies.
 
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