Numerous vitamin supplements?

[slurms mackenzie]

From both my readings and experience, I can tell you that vitamins alone will not stop male pattern baldness-related hair loss for long, if at all.

However, vitamins, combined with minerals and herbs, have been shown not only to stop hair loss, but also, regrow hair in some cases. This is a fact, irrespective of what posters like Freakout claim, as he does not write from experience.

Show me studies.

I've never seen a truly independent study, but there's a couple of studies i've read about which can be found easily enough, one regarding resveratrol and curcumin, another regarding tocetrienols.

There was one published this week regarding the dodgily titled spermadine

I'm sure there's many more, loose connections and i'm pretty sure you've heard of most of them but have doubts because ....

A search on all of this on google + the keyword hair will lead people to results, but the problem we have is each one of these studies is normally associated with a company and it's product or has a very small sample size.

It's a real shame these studies are never repeated.

 

[Cassin]

Vitamins may be out there that can stop a form of hairloss...but not male pattern baldness genetic hairloss.

 

[The Natural]

gho and powersam, you may, at your leisure, google the words "curcumin and resveratrol." But more so than a study, I am stating the effectiveness of herbs on male pattern baldness-related hair loss from personal experience.

 

[powersam]

If you are not willing to back up your opinions by posting the evidence that led you to these conclusions, then you are wasting our time with conjecture posing as fact.

Post your evidence or stop posting.

N=1 anecdotal evidence is worth less than nothing.

 

[freakout]

We excrete 7 of the 8 types of Vitamin E. Yeap, we use only 1.

If you read that page again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocotrienol

I don't see how the numerous effects could be claimed by the studies without the other forms of vitamin e affecting the body.

Do you have anything to back up the statement about 1 in 8 of the forms being used by the body?

I was posting from memory. My source is a printed article from a 2007 or 2008 Reader's Digest issue which is written in layman's terms. I can look for it and scan the pages pertaining to Vitamin E and send it to you. Would you like that?

The article pits food sources versus pills.

The article about Tocotrienol on Wikipedia are full of references based on lab rats and test tubes. The only two studies involving human subjects were done with a small sample. One using healthy volunteers from the University of Malaya using concentrates. The other a sample of 50 patients with arterosclerosis again using concentrates.

I'm not disputing the benefits of Vitamin E from food because they come along with other nutrients that occur with it in nature. That makes it healthy. However, synthesizing it or extracting it to be put on a pill is a different scenario.

Anyone who claims that Vitamin E supplements help is way behind in his readings.

I'm just an average guy, who isn't a doctor but ....

I'm sorry man. I know you mean well. I'm a layman too. That was meant for this guy who post experiences and claim it to be a fact.

While the majority of research on vitamin E has focused on alpha-tocopherol, studies into tocotrienols account for less than 1% of all research into vitamin E.[7]More recently, tocotrienols have reached a new measure of scientific recognition, with nearly 30% of peer-reviewed research articles on the vitamin published within the last two years (2009-2010). The first-ever scientific compilation of tocotrienol research, Tocotrienols: Vitamin E Beyond Tocopherols, was published in 2008 by CRC and AOCS Press, while a second edition has been approved for publication in May 2012.

Isn't all that after 2005?

Yes but these studies will still have to be subjected to large scale human trials. Almost everything we know about numerous 'antioxidants' are based on test tube experiments and small human samples. If these are true, why did they fail in large scale human trials involving thousands of volunteers.

When they failed, it made the "antioxidants are good, free radicals are bad", a myth and a theory gone wild. Hence, the other side of the thinking is: without the free radicals, we'd be full of cancer cells in our bodies.

Many "studies" are out there to be commercially exploited and sometimes recklessly done. They are widely held "scientifically proven" beliefs because they were advertised.

 

[The Natural]

If you are not willing to back up your opinions by posting the evidence that led you to these conclusions, then you are wasting our time with conjecture posing as fact.

Post your evidence or stop posting.

N=1 anecdotal evidence is worth less than nothing.

Learn to read. This is not an opinion. It is a fact. Curcumin and resveratrol stopped my hair loss.

Personal experience "led to my conclusion," NOT after reading about an Italian study which examined the effect that curcumin and resveratrol had on male pattern baldness:

1. http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo= ... SPLAY=DESC

And the results: "...while the group treated with resveratrol and curcumin showed with great surprise a reduction, sometimes also relevant, in variable time periods. Moreover, during this testing, the patients treated with resveratrol and curcumin surprisingly showed positive improvements in the treatment of psoriasis and the attenuation and even a stop of the hair loss, a reduction of the hair graying and the rebirth of hair in bald areas sometimes even of the original color too."

But a study means nothing unless you try it, and it works for you. I tried the herbal combination of curcumin and resveratrol. And it worked for me.

Now, mind your manners, Huckleberry.

 

[powersam]

I asked you to post your evidence, you both said Google it. Lazy.

Then I told you why you needed to post your evidence. Nothing impolite there.

Now onto the 'evidence'.

Here was your claim- "However, vitamins, combined with minerals and herbs, have been shown not only to stop hair loss, but also, regrow hair in some cases. This is a fact, irrespective of what posters like Freakout claim, as he does not write from experience."

Then as evidence of that very broad claim, posted as fact, you supply a single patent. Not even a study, a patent. It is interesting but you'll have to do better than that to justify the above claim.

But a study means nothing unless you try it, and it works for you

Completely wrong. A study always holds value. Are you saying a study on a successful treatment for breast cancer means nothing because I personally will never try it? Or what if I am one of the small percentage of people that minoxidil does not work on, does that then mean studies on minoxidil mean nothing?

 

[The Natural]

Again, re-read what I wrote s l o w l y. Curcumin and resveratrol stopped my hair loss. That is a fact, Huckleberry. You may, at your discretion, choose not to believe this or similar cases that I have read at other hair loss forums. It does not, however, change the facts. The existence of a study or lack thereof does not change the facts: people have stopped their hair loss with herbs, vitamins, and minerals, as I have experienced and read.

And by the way, what, pray tell, do all of your minoxidil studies mean to some poor schmuck (and there are many) whose hair did not improve one iota while using this pharmaceutical product. I'll tell you what: They, your studies, mean absolutely nothing to him.

Nothing.

 

[slurms mackenzie]

I asked you to post your evidence, you both said Google it. Lazy.

Not lazy at all powersam.

It's just as lazy not to use google, by using google you can go and find out detractions from the study.

It's just as lazy not to use the search function on this website.

You said show me studies i got you off on a start, you had the most to gain in terms of knowledge.

Did my response have the answers to your request or not?

Now if you'd have said please link to studies .... that's different.

Personally i'd have been happy that somebody had informed me about something related to hair loss i had no previous knowledge of.


<<edit read you other post about it being patents>>

Actually

I've said from the start that the studies are sponsored by companies but if you read the patents they include the studies. I'll see if i can pull them down when i've got more time. They exist but they're not pubmed type things, although i'm pretty sure the one for tocotreinols has been published in an aisian derm journal

 

[The Natural]

Yes sir, this guy is hilarious, bordering ridiculous.

And if he, powersam, had bothered to read the patent, he would have seen that it did, in fact, include a study done, of which:

"...while the group treated with resveratrol and curcumin showed with great surprise a reduction, sometimes also relevant, in variable time periods. Moreover, during this testing, the patients treated with resveratrol and curcumin surprisingly showed positive improvements in the treatment of psoriasis and the attenuation and even a stop of the hair loss, a reduction of the hair graying and the rebirth of hair in bald areas sometimes even of the original color too."

 

[ukmale24]

Yes sir, this guy is hilarious, bordering ridiculous.

And if he, powersam, had bothered to read the patent, he would have seen that it did, in fact, include a study done, of which:

"...while the group treated with resveratrol and curcumin showed with great surprise a reduction, sometimes also relevant, in variable time periods. Moreover, during this testing, the patients treated with resveratrol and curcumin surprisingly showed positive improvements in the treatment of psoriasis and the attenuation and even a stop of the hair loss, a reduction of the hair graying and the rebirth of hair in bald areas sometimes even of the original color too."

Are you taking curcumin and resveratrol topically or orally? How long did it take for you to see some results?

 

[slurms mackenzie]

Yes sir, this guy is hilarious, bordering ridiculous.

And if he, powersam, had bothered to read the patent, he would have seen that it did, in fact, include a study done, of which:

"...while the group treated with resveratrol and curcumin showed with great surprise a reduction, sometimes also relevant, in variable time periods. Moreover, during this testing, the patients treated with resveratrol and curcumin surprisingly showed positive improvements in the treatment of psoriasis and the attenuation and even a stop of the hair loss, a reduction of the hair graying and the rebirth of hair in bald areas sometimes even of the original color too."

Powersams not normally too bad in fairness, he asks the right questions, but to come out blazing, no pleases or thanks demanding that i go and wipe his god damn arse like i'm his b**ch or something, fool made me mad

Grrrrrrrrr!

I'm over it now though.

http://ernd.usm.my/journal/journal/TLSR%2021-2-8-(91-99).pdf

The red flag on this study is that the study itself doesn't mention Androgenetic Alopecia just Alopecia, but the company claims they tested for male pattern baldness (carrotech)

http://www.hairloss-research.org/Update ... s4-08.html

There's the info.

Did i mention the study on taurine? :whistle:

Peace and out.

 

[powersam]

The fact that you are insulted by my asking for evidence for your claims is telling in itself.

Replying to those requests with 'google it' is lazy beyond belief. You post a claim, you supply the proof. That is how it works.

You've supplied a patent, when requested to supply a study. That patent contains some information about a study on a very small amount of people, it was not even double blind. As evidence, it is not even close to robust.

My goal in this thread? Make sure others do not buy into unsubstantiated idiocy. These posts will be enough to make sure others do a bit of research before taking this n=1 anecdotal evidence as gospel.

There may be something to resveratrol and curcumin. Certainly the patents filed on asc-j9 illustrate that curcumin is worthy of more attention. That said, many treatments have been worthy of interest yet worth nothing in the end.

But that either of you would approach this topic in such a cavalier manner is simply ridiculous. Either you have a respect for evidence and science, or you don't. You both apparently do not. Grow up.

 

[slurms mackenzie]

The fact that you are insulted by my asking for evidence for your claims is telling in itself.

Replying to those requests with 'google it' is lazy beyond belief. You post a claim, you supply the proof. That is how it works.

You've supplied a patent, when requested to supply a study. That patent contains some information about a study on a very small amount of people, it was not even double blind. As evidence, it is not even close to robust.

My goal in this thread? Make sure others do not buy into unsubstantiated idiocy. These posts will be enough to make sure others do a bit of research before taking this n=1 anecdotal evidence as gospel.

There may be something to resveratrol and curcumin. Certainly the patents filed on asc-j9 illustrate that curcumin is worthy of more attention. That said, many treatments have been worthy of interest yet worth nothing in the end.

But that either of you would approach this topic in such a cavalier manner is simply ridiculous. Either you have a respect for evidence and science, or you don't. You both apparently do not. Grow up.

Nobody is selling anything to anybody, and i'm certainly not claiming any as fact.

If you're upset that you were asked to google something then so be it, but there has to a point whereby it's enough to say there are some studies out there.

What if i were to say there are studies showing propecia works , would you come charging in again with your lack of manners demanding i show you proof.

You did not ask for a link did you?

Well did you? and at no point have I personally said a sample size of 1 is good enough.

Why can't you just chill a bit? The info was out there, it wasn't like i was lying.

Think about it you were told how to find the studies, which i critiqued!

Then where in the studies the information was.

Seriously who's the lazy one?

Are the studies out there or not?

Is your life enriched?

 

[slurms mackenzie]

You've supplied a patent, when requested to supply a study. That patent contains some information about a study on a very small amount of people, it was not even double blind. As evidence, it is not even close to robust.

Seriously i haven't and i wasn't even asked to post a study still being the good soul that i am, i posted a link to a published study that i said was sponsored, i don't know why your so angry about this extra information.

I'd be happy, to know about an additional study even if i thought it was guff.

As for a respect for science let's deal in binary

I said studies exist.

1 or 0 my friend,

Do they or do they not?

C'est vrai ou faux?

Yay or Nay?

Do the studies exist?

Maybe if you had the same respect for people as you do science you'd actually read what they said and treated them in a courteous manner.

The answer by the way is *yes* the studies exist, at no point did i claim the ingredients in them are a cure.

I also gave you proof that the studies exist. Now re-read my posts and look for where *I* actually claim anything about the studies apart from their existence. Now do you understand why you were told to go google it? I'm not trying to prove anything because i haven't claimed anything other than the fact that the studies exist.

You've not commented on the vitamin e study, but please do so and see if you can say anything about it that i haven't done so already.

<<edited an extraordinary number of times to refine and drill home pointy>>

 

[Jacob]

Of all the hair combos out there...this one (still) interests me the most: http://www.europharmausa.com/products/milasan/

Miliacin is mentioned here:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17676827

To investigate the effect of cell growth-stimulating agents on human epidermal keratinocytes, we exposed monolayers of normal human keratinocytes derived from foreskin to different concentrations of the amino acid L-cystine, the member of the vitamin B family D-pantothenat, the phytosterol miliacin, and a combination thereof in keratinocyte growth medium. As a test system for the metabolic capacity, we used the activity of mitochondrial deyhdrogenases as measured by XTT, and for the cell proliferation, we determined the BrdU-uptake. The additives, active ingredients of the hair growth drug PRIORIN®, were added in the presence of fully supplemented keratinocyte growth medium or a deficient medium without L-cystine, L-methionine, L-histidin, D-pantothenat, epidermal growth factor, and bovine pituary gland extract. Deficient medium itself reduced the metabolic capacity of keratinocytes to 35% compared with keratinocytes in fully supplemented growth medium, In deficient medium cell, proliferation was not measurable. Increasing doses of L-cystine restored the reduced metabolic capacity from 46% (0.009 mg/L) to 54% (0.09 mg/L) and 92% (0.45 mg/L) in deficient medium. Addition of D-pantothenat (0.43 mg/L) enhanced the metabolic capacity to 150% only in fully supplemented growth medium, compared with untreated controls with growth medium. Miliacin (6 mglmL) increased not only the metabolic capacity (162%) but also stimulated cell proliferation (215%) as measured by BrdU-uptake in growth medium. The combination of all three additives increased the metabolic capacity (245%) synergistically in growth medium. We were able to show effects of D-panthenol, L-lysine, and miliacin on proliferation and metabolic capacity of keratinocyte monocell culture, which was further increased by combination of the three substances. These basic results suggest a beneficial effect on keratinocyte growth and stimulation by products combining these substances (e.g., Priorin®). Furthermore, this work emphasizes the suitability of keratinocyte monolayers for pharmacological testings

See also http://www.europharmausa.com/DBFiles/Greensheet/32.pdf ...and yeah, I know..it's funny there's a bald guy pictured there :woot: If I had a head like that......

 

[slurms mackenzie]

Cheers Jacob, again things have got a bit of a similar feel to the

capsures, (curc + res)
toco 8 (vitamin e)
inneov for homme (taurine mainly i guess)

supplements.

Have you been following the TRX2 thread elswhere? Now this is where some people have really jumped in blindly with no real backup (brave brave people), and it's been fascinating reading.

It's a shame they couldn't try something like this.

 

[Jacob]

I've been following it a bit..even emailed with the TRX2 folks a little. Wasn't too crazy about some of their responses..had mainly to do with getting a "trial" going for folks in these types of forums. Decided to just see how it goes for the other guys. It's similar to the "Decalcify"(although TRX2 seems a bit more worth looking into) in that all of a sudden we're supposed to believe it's going to do something...when it's something yet to be tried. Hasn't been part of the Top 6 which has been working wonders :shock: all these years but I guess that's what is going to sell better.

And yeah...I've posted about this Europharma combo before and there hasn't been much interest. I guess it just wasn't hyped the right way. Or maybe there aren't any folks who got it for free and/or are spamming the forums :woot: I don't expect it to do much on it's own..just seems worth adding to everything else I'm doing.

 

[The Natural]

I have actually tried most of these supplements, unlike like powersam, discussing from the point of ignorance.

And in my opinion, tocotrienols, alone, will not stop one's hair loss. Neither will Inneov homme. Toco-8 provided me with added energy. And it may have thickened my existing hair. An herbal combination of taurine, grape seed extract, and green tea extract (i.e. Inneov) did absolutely nothing for my hair loss.

However, curcumin and resveratrol had a much different effect on my scalp/hair: reducing, then eliminating my dandruff; slowing, then stopping my hair loss within a three and 1/2 month period.

That was over three years ago.

Admittedly, I have read posts from others who did not experience a cessation of hair loss while using curcumin and resveratrol, but the majority of feedback that I have read in the forums has been positive: meaning, at the very least, users experienced less scalp inflammation while taking curcumin and resveratrol.

 

[The Natural]

As for Immortal's supplement line, my guess would be that they are good products, and should benefit the hair and scalp. Just a feeling, mind you, as I have never used their products.

Nor will I ever.