Italian Hair Loss Lotion To Hit The Market In 2016

[worm]

I would not read that much into it.

Indeed. I was grasping at straws, as we have been the past 500 f'in pages.

 

[champpy]

It feels like time is moving slow until the Fall...Im already old and i never wished to be a year older so bad lol

Girl, you nailed exactly how I feel too

 

[d3nt3dsh0v3l]

There you have it boys and girls, they make their billions in 2021, I suspect when the lotion is introduced that year! Notice how their revenue is only 300m now. 5 years people! Hurray!

Yeah I actually looked at their valuation once when trying to determine if they are legit or not.

As much as I want it to be real, I have my doubts about Brotzu's lotion. It's the equol that really bothers me. I've looked through the literature and tried to contact the people at Brigham Young University as they have published the most about equol's ability to bind to DHT and they also hold the key equol patent in the United States. No responses from them. They licensed equol use to NuSkin, a multilevel marketing company, which is a really f*****g shitty sign. One of the authors who appears on pretty much all the work has the same last name as a cofounder of NuSkin - lovely. And to top it off, both of them of course went to BYU. I learned all of this after digging around because I was wondering - why license equol to a company who wants to turn it into an anti-aging skin cream when acne and Androgenetic Alopecia are mentioned as potential applications in all of the literature and patents they wrote? Surely those are the high value problems to target. So I guess I have my doubts in its efficacy.

Several papers I read from the Japanese showed that there are probably some mild hormonal effects of equol that may alleviate post-menopausal hot flashes, some mild benign prostatic hyperplasia, etc. Soy is really popular in Japan and they seem to have no problem fermenting it to produce s-equol. What really bothered me is that the BYU work claims that equol binds very well to DHT yet studies by others who dose s-equol orally to patients saw only a mild decrease in serum DHT. The thing though, was that in these studies the equol concentration in the blood was several factors greater than the DHT concentration. If equol bound to DHT in a 1:1 manner and the binding affinity was high (as claimed by the BYU guys), I really expected that equol should tank serum DHT. Either that, or I should question the antibody used in ELISA to measure DHT concentration; I know that since sex hormone binding globulin binds to testosterone, different antibodies are used to measure free vs total testosterone to distinguish the unbound testosterone from the rest, so perhaps it may be tricky to distinguish equol-bound DHT from free DHT. I mean, SHGB is enormous and completely envelops testosterone whereas equol and DHT/testosterone are comparable in size. I don't know.

When I saw that Brotzu added equol to the lotion, I was initially excited (before I began to question the literature on equol). I mean, the idea made sense - PGE1 is a potent vasodilator and we know minoxidil works, and equol is supposed to suppress DHT's action on the androgen receptor as well as mildly agonize the estrogen receptor, both of which we know are important strategies toward recovering hair, as demonstrated by finasteride, RU-58841, as well as the estrogens that are taken by the trans community, who show exceptional regrowth.

But then Brotzu claimed that the two components don't work well by themselves, only together. This didn't make sense. Minoxidil and finasteride work just fine separately. Of course they work synergistically but they are not useless by themselves. Then I went and re-read Brotzu's patent carefully. Based on the experiments he ran, his conclusions suggested that actually, equol was doing the majority of the work in producing results. I was excited. This made sense. We know finasteride>minoxidil. But then, someone pointed out that there were amendments to the patent, the most important of which claimed that there was a typographical error in the patent, and that the formulation of one of the tested lotions was actually different from what was written on the patent. Acknowledging this change would actually reverse the conclusion and show that for whatever reason, neither the lotion containing PGE1 nor equol alone produced results. I thought that was peculiar - if they don't work separately, how could the professor possibly have known to combine them if he was initially just experimenting with PGE1 for diabetics? Wasn't the anecdote that topical PGE1 grew hair as a side effect? Didn't make sense.

The use of liposomes checks out to me. Not only as a means to effectively deliver drugs (ensuring proper penetration) but also as a means to selectively target the hair follicle; several papers have shown that this is possible.

So I was left wondering - is Brotzu legit? Some things make sense, but we know that to actually get results, we have to address DHT and the only thing in the lotion that appears to explicitly target DHT is equol, which unfortunately seems questionable based on what has been demonstrated in literature. Brotzu seems like a cool dude or whatever, being a professor at a university. But then again, so was the principle investigator from BYU who spent a big chunk of his career investigating equol's ability to bind to DHT and I am skeptical because of his association to NuSkin, etc. as I mentioned earlier. Why would Fidia purchase the patent to this lotion if it is useless? My close friend thinks that it probably works, since Fidia is not a very large company by any means and they don't have the capital to throw around on something that is a long shot or sketchy/garbage. Surely they saw some results for themselves before shelling out the dough to buy the patent. I don't know.

At this point, I wouldn't be shocked if it did NOT work and I would be surprised if it worked better than finasteride or hell, even matched finasteride results, because again, I think equol would have to be the thing that performs the antiandrogenic function. I would have preferred having the reverse attitude - shocked if it didn't work and expectant that it will match finasteride - but, whatever.

>inb4 dislikes just for questioning Brotzu's lotion. I don't give a f***. I will continue to evaluate things critically and objectively because it is the logical thing to do. We all know pictures and data are severely lacking. Also, nobody should be above being questioned. Feel free to question my claims/thoughts/conclusions also of course. I've learned many new things from people correcting me on this forum. If someone wants to show me that DGLA/PGE1 also exert antiandrogenic effects, that would make my day.

 

[hanginginthewire]

We are so screwed.

 

[Sanchez1234]

Yeah I actually looked at their valuation once when trying to determine if they are legit or not.

As much as I want it to be real, I have my doubts about Brotzu's lotion. It's the equol that really bothers me. I've looked through the literature and tried to contact the people at Brigham Young University as they have published the most about equol's ability to bind to DHT and they also hold the key equol patent in the United States. No responses from them. They licensed equol use to NuSkin, a multilevel marketing company, which is a really f*****g shitty sign. One of the authors who appears on pretty much all the work has the same last name as a cofounder of NuSkin - lovely. And to top it off, both of them of course went to BYU. I learned all of this after digging around because I was wondering - why license equol to a company who wants to turn it into an anti-aging skin cream when acne and Androgenetic Alopecia are mentioned as potential applications in all of the literature and patents they wrote? Surely those are the high value problems to target. So I guess I have my doubts in its efficacy.

Several papers I read from the Japanese showed that there are probably some mild hormonal effects of equol that may alleviate post-menopausal hot flashes, some mild benign prostatic hyperplasia, etc. Soy is really popular in Japan and they seem to have no problem fermenting it to produce s-equol. What really bothered me is that the BYU work claims that equol binds very well to DHT yet studies by others who dose s-equol orally to patients saw only a mild decrease in serum DHT. The thing though, was that in these studies the equol concentration in the blood was several factors greater than the DHT concentration. If equol bound to DHT in a 1:1 manner and the binding affinity was high (as claimed by the BYU guys), I really expected that equol should tank serum DHT. Either that, or I should question the antibody used in ELISA to measure DHT concentration; I know that since sex hormone binding globulin binds to testosterone, different antibodies are used to measure free vs total testosterone to distinguish the unbound testosterone from the rest, so perhaps it may be tricky to distinguish equol-bound DHT from free DHT. I mean, SHGB is enormous and completely envelops testosterone whereas equol and DHT/testosterone are comparable in size. I don't know.

When I saw that Brotzu added equol to the lotion, I was initially excited (before I began to question the literature on equol). I mean, the idea made sense - PGE1 is a potent vasodilator and we know minoxidil works, and equol is supposed to suppress DHT's action on the androgen receptor as well as mildly agonize the estrogen receptor, both of which we know are important strategies toward recovering hair, as demonstrated by finasteride, RU-58841, as well as the estrogens that are taken by the trans community, who show exceptional regrowth.

But then Brotzu claimed that the two components don't work well by themselves, only together. This didn't make sense. Minoxidil and finasteride work just fine separately. Of course they work synergistically but they are not useless by themselves. Then I went and re-read Brotzu's patent carefully. Based on the experiments he ran, his conclusions suggested that actually, equol was doing the majority of the work in producing results. I was excited. This made sense. We know finasteride>minoxidil. But then, someone pointed out that there were amendments to the patent, the most important of which claimed that there was a typographical error in the patent, and that the formulation of one of the tested lotions was actually different from what was written on the patent. Acknowledging this change would actually reverse the conclusion and show that for whatever reason, neither the lotion containing PGE1 nor equol alone produced results. I thought that was peculiar - if they don't work separately, how could the professor possibly have known to combine them if he was initially just experimenting with PGE1 for diabetics? Wasn't the anecdote that topical PGE1 grew hair as a side effect? Didn't make sense.

The use of liposomes checks out to me. Not only as a means to effectively deliver drugs (ensuring proper penetration) but also as a means to selectively target the hair follicle; several papers have shown that this is possible.

So I was left wondering - is Brotzu legit? Some things make sense, but we know that to actually get results, we have to address DHT and the only thing in the lotion that appears to explicitly target DHT is equol, which unfortunately seems questionable based on what has been demonstrated in literature. Brotzu seems like a cool dude or whatever, being a professor at a university. But then again, so was the principle investigator from BYU who spent a big chunk of his career investigating equol's ability to bind to DHT and I am skeptical because of his association to NuSkin, etc. as I mentioned earlier. Why would Fidia purchase the patent to this lotion if it is useless? My close friend thinks that it probably works, since Fidia is not a very large company by any means and they don't have the capital to throw around on something that is a long shot or sketchy/garbage. Surely they saw some results for themselves before shelling out the dough to buy the patent. I don't know.

At this point, I wouldn't be shocked if it did NOT work and I would be surprised if it worked better than finasteride or hell, even matched finasteride results, because again, I think equol would have to be the thing that performs the antiandrogenic function. I would have preferred having the reverse attitude - shocked if it didn't work and expectant that it will match finasteride - but, whatever.

>inb4 dislikes just for questioning Brotzu's lotion. I don't give a f***. I will continue to evaluate things critically and objectively because it is the logical thing to do. We all know pictures and data are severely lacking. Also, nobody should be above being questioned. Feel free to question my claims/thoughts/conclusions also of course. I've learned many new things from people correcting me on this forum. If someone wants to show me that DGLA/PGE1 also exert antiandrogenic effects, that would make my day.

Great analysis. We have to wait and see. I hope your logic will be wrong

 

[Janko]

There you have it boys and girls, they make their billions in 2021, I suspect when the lotion is introduced that year! Notice how their revenue is only 300m now. 5 years people! Hurray!

Now they see 300 m and in another 3-4 years they see increase to 2,64 b. That is nine times more. This is actually really good news. They know they have something huge. If they see such increase by 2021 does not mean they will release something in 2021 and see sudden profit. It takes time from release to make 9 times more...
Also they paid for market research company? Until 2021? This is huge actually. RnR is global company. You would pay for that only if you had something for good global sales. So we knows, that Fidia already has its market research.
Theoretically if Beps did not lied about how fast the results come. You release magic potion in May of 2018. You will have nice study and photos, but a lot of snake oils have photos too. You have a cosmetic potion. Not for prescription and it will have to compete with snake oils from known companies. People who are on finasteride and minoxidil without knowledge of brotzu will see it as snake oil. A lot of derms look at baldness as "Deal with it. It is normal" problem. Fidia will most likely commercialize it. So, in May you will sell it mostly to guys who knows about it or people who will let themselves influence by commercial. After about 6 months (End of 2018 or beginning of 2019) the people have really good regrowth. People start asking them what is with you hair? What do you use? I should recommend it to bla bla bla. Hairloss forums everywhere will have pics of people using it. Then the mouth marketing comes in. (Mostly from women. They recommend each other thinks they have a good experience with). Now comes the first hype train sales. Another 6 months and you have mid of 2019. Now it is almost seen as: hairloss? Just start using fidias magic potion. So by the end of 2019/beginning 2020 you have loyal costumers dependent on your product with almost all market field hit. Which means in 2020 you have money everywhere and by 2021 you made to the level of 2,64 billions.

Better question is: Why they released this info? They are not public company so why such claims, that usually aim for investors?
It could be because of hoax, that was here and overall on the internet, that Fidia is doing badly and can´t survive more than 1 year.

 

[Janko]

View attachment 57635

From a young balding guy to another.

In my heart you´ll be always a fullhead,
Janko

 

[17AndBalding]

Well finally starting on minoxidil from tomorrow onwards at 2%. Really hope this will maintain my hair or atleast slow down the hairloss.. And then hope Brotzu/Shiseido/Follica comes out next year.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Well finally starting on minoxidil from tomorrow onwards at 2%. Really hope this will maintain my hair or atleast slow down the hairloss.. And then hope Brotzu/Shiseido/Follica comes out next year.

Why won't you use 5%?

 

[17AndBalding]

Why won't you use 5%?

I've been told to start on low dosages by quite a few people.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I've been told to start on low dosages by quite a few people.

I think that's usually recommended for finasteride, not minoxidil.

 

[hairblues]

I've been told to start on low dosages by quite a few people.

i started at 5% but first week i used like half recommended dosage...basically just used a smaller amount.
This is up to you of course it wont hurt either way but dont take too long to go up in strength I dont think 2% is helpful to most people.
(unless you have health problems or anxiety etc)

 

[17AndBalding]

I think that's usually recommended for finasteride, not minoxidil.

Hmm interesting, I suppose you can just up the dose whenever you want to? I could up it after the first bottle's empty.

 

[hairblues]

Yeah I actually looked at their valuation once when trying to determine if they are legit or not.

As much as I want it to be real, I have my doubts about Brotzu's lotion. It's the equol that really bothers me. I've looked through the literature and tried to contact the people at Brigham Young University as they have published the most about equol's ability to bind to DHT and they also hold the key equol patent in the United States. No responses from them. They licensed equol use to NuSkin, a multilevel marketing company, which is a really f*****g shitty sign. One of the authors who appears on pretty much all the work has the same last name as a cofounder of NuSkin - lovely. And to top it off, both of them of course went to BYU. I learned all of this after digging around because I was wondering - why license equol to a company who wants to turn it into an anti-aging skin cream when acne and Androgenetic Alopecia are mentioned as potential applications in all of the literature and patents they wrote? Surely those are the high value problems to target. So I guess I have my doubts in its efficacy.

Several papers I read from the Japanese showed that there are probably some mild hormonal effects of equol that may alleviate post-menopausal hot flashes, some mild benign prostatic hyperplasia, etc. Soy is really popular in Japan and they seem to have no problem fermenting it to produce s-equol. What really bothered me is that the BYU work claims that equol binds very well to DHT yet studies by others who dose s-equol orally to patients saw only a mild decrease in serum DHT. The thing though, was that in these studies the equol concentration in the blood was several factors greater than the DHT concentration. If equol bound to DHT in a 1:1 manner and the binding affinity was high (as claimed by the BYU guys), I really expected that equol should tank serum DHT. Either that, or I should question the antibody used in ELISA to measure DHT concentration; I know that since sex hormone binding globulin binds to testosterone, different antibodies are used to measure free vs total testosterone to distinguish the unbound testosterone from the rest, so perhaps it may be tricky to distinguish equol-bound DHT from free DHT. I mean, SHGB is enormous and completely envelops testosterone whereas equol and DHT/testosterone are comparable in size. I don't know.

When I saw that Brotzu added equol to the lotion, I was initially excited (before I began to question the literature on equol). I mean, the idea made sense - PGE1 is a potent vasodilator and we know minoxidil works, and equol is supposed to suppress DHT's action on the androgen receptor as well as mildly agonize the estrogen receptor, both of which we know are important strategies toward recovering hair, as demonstrated by finasteride, RU-58841, as well as the estrogens that are taken by the trans community, who show exceptional regrowth.

But then Brotzu claimed that the two components don't work well by themselves, only together. This didn't make sense. Minoxidil and finasteride work just fine separately. Of course they work synergistically but they are not useless by themselves. Then I went and re-read Brotzu's patent carefully. Based on the experiments he ran, his conclusions suggested that actually, equol was doing the majority of the work in producing results. I was excited. This made sense. We know finasteride>minoxidil. But then, someone pointed out that there were amendments to the patent, the most important of which claimed that there was a typographical error in the patent, and that the formulation of one of the tested lotions was actually different from what was written on the patent. Acknowledging this change would actually reverse the conclusion and show that for whatever reason, neither the lotion containing PGE1 nor equol alone produced results. I thought that was peculiar - if they don't work separately, how could the professor possibly have known to combine them if he was initially just experimenting with PGE1 for diabetics? Wasn't the anecdote that topical PGE1 grew hair as a side effect? Didn't make sense.

The use of liposomes checks out to me. Not only as a means to effectively deliver drugs (ensuring proper penetration) but also as a means to selectively target the hair follicle; several papers have shown that this is possible.

So I was left wondering - is Brotzu legit? Some things make sense, but we know that to actually get results, we have to address DHT and the only thing in the lotion that appears to explicitly target DHT is equol, which unfortunately seems questionable based on what has been demonstrated in literature. Brotzu seems like a cool dude or whatever, being a professor at a university. But then again, so was the principle investigator from BYU who spent a big chunk of his career investigating equol's ability to bind to DHT and I am skeptical because of his association to NuSkin, etc. as I mentioned earlier. Why would Fidia purchase the patent to this lotion if it is useless? My close friend thinks that it probably works, since Fidia is not a very large company by any means and they don't have the capital to throw around on something that is a long shot or sketchy/garbage. Surely they saw some results for themselves before shelling out the dough to buy the patent. I don't know.

At this point, I wouldn't be shocked if it did NOT work and I would be surprised if it worked better than finasteride or hell, even matched finasteride results, because again, I think equol would have to be the thing that performs the antiandrogenic function. I would have preferred having the reverse attitude - shocked if it didn't work and expectant that it will match finasteride - but, whatever.

>inb4 dislikes just for questioning Brotzu's lotion. I don't give a f***. I will continue to evaluate things critically and objectively because it is the logical thing to do. We all know pictures and data are severely lacking. Also, nobody should be above being questioned. Feel free to question my claims/thoughts/conclusions also of course. I've learned many new things from people correcting me on this forum. If someone wants to show me that DGLA/PGE1 also exert antiandrogenic effects, that would make my day.

what did you think of the list of researchers that follicle thought listed? (if you have not seen?)

http://www.folliclethought.com

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Hmm interesting, I suppose you can just up the dose whenever you want to? I could up it after the first bottle's empty.

Yeah that's fine.

Have you considered finasteride? It uses a different mechanism than min. What's your hair like now?

 

[17AndBalding]

Yeah that's fine.

Have you considered finasteride? It uses a different mechanism than min. What's your hair like now?

I'm very very hesitant to use finasteride since I just turned 18 last may, not liking the idea of screwing with my hormones. As far as my hairloss goes, NW2/NW2.5~ hairline with thinning in the forelock but above my temples have been the same for at least 6 months now. Crown area is totally fine and quite robust still.

 

[hanginginthewire]

Now they see 300 m and in another 3-4 years they see increase to 2,64 b. That is nine times more. This is actually really good news. They know they have something huge. If they see such increase by 2021 does not mean they will release something in 2021 and see sudden profit. It takes time from release to make 9 times more...
Also they paid for market research company? Until 2021? This is huge actually. RnR is global company. You would pay for that only if you had something for good global sales. So we knows, that Fidia already has its market research.
Theoretically if Beps did not lied about how fast the results come. You release magic potion in May of 2018. You will have nice study and photos, but a lot of snake oils have photos too. You have a cosmetic potion. Not for prescription and it will have to compete with snake oils from known companies. People who are on finasteride and minoxidil without knowledge of brotzu will see it as snake oil. A lot of derms look at baldness as "Deal with it. It is normal" problem. Fidia will most likely commercialize it. So, in May you will sell it mostly to guys who knows about it or people who will let themselves influence by commercial. After about 6 months (End of 2018 or beginning of 2019) the people have really good regrowth. People start asking them what is with you hair? What do you use? I should recommend it to bla bla bla. Hairloss forums everywhere will have pics of people using it. Then the mouth marketing comes in. (Mostly from women. They recommend each other thinks they have a good experience with). Now comes the first hype train sales. Another 6 months and you have mid of 2019. Now it is almost seen as: hairloss? Just start using fidias magic potion. So by the end of 2019/beginning 2020 you have loyal costumers dependent on your product with almost all market field hit. Which means in 2020 you have money everywhere and by 2021 you made to the level of 2,64 billions.

Better question is: Why they released this info? They are not public company so why such claims, that usually aim for investors?
It could be because of hoax, that was here and overall on the internet, that Fidia is doing badly and can´t survive more than 1 year.

 

[d3nt3dsh0v3l]

what did you think of the list of researchers that follicle thought listed? (if you have not seen?)

http://www.folliclethought.com

I didn't see that till you linked. Hard to say anything when those guys are being so tight-lipped to be honest. That, and they are pre-clinical/phase I so... I don't know. If I were them, and I were trying something radical/new, then I mean it might be a shot in the dark anyway so I'd keep it to myself. We'll just have to see, I guess. But to be honest, I don't really visit folliclethought much these days...

 

[d3nt3dsh0v3l]

Fidia Farmaceutici S.p.A., a world leader in the research, development and manufacturing of hyaluronan (HA)-based products, and its wholly owned subsidiary, FIDIA PHARMA USA Inc., are projecting continued growth in 2017. The global viscosupplementation market is anticipated to increase to over $2.64 billion by 2021, according to a research study by RnR Market Research1.

There you have it boys and girls, they make their billions in 2021, I suspect when the lotion is introduced that year! Notice how their revenue is only 300m now. 5 years people! Hurray!

Now they see 300 m and in another 3-4 years they see increase to 2,64 b. That is nine times more. This is actually really good news. They know they have something huge. If they see such increase by 2021 does not mean they will release something in 2021 and see sudden profit. It takes time from release to make 9 times more...
..So by the end of 2019/beginning 2020 you have loyal costumers dependent on your product with almost all market field hit. Which means in 2020 you have money everywhere and by 2021 you made to the level of 2,64 billions.

Better question is: Why they released this info? They are not public company so why such claims, that usually aim for investors?
It could be because of hoax, that was here and overall on the internet, that Fidia is doing badly and can´t survive more than 1 year.

Bros you need to slow the f*ck down and read the statement. What it is saying is that

1) Fidia has a successful product line of hyaluronic acid products. You know what that is? It's cosmetic filler. Juvederm. It's an endogenous substance so it has other functions than just plumping your skin. If you want to learn more, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyaluronic_acid

Fidia did not invent HA. Many people manufacture the stuff. Fidia, being a small cosmetic company, holds HA-based products as one of its core products.

2) The GLOBAL viscosupplementation market, i.e. substances included, but not limited to, HA, is valued in the billions. That is the size of the entire market. Here's the definition of market size: The number of individuals in a certain market who are potential buyers and/or sellers of a product or service. Companies are interested in knowing the market size before launching a new product or service in an area (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/market-size.html).

In other words, 2.64 B is the PROJECTED SIZE OF THIS ENTIRE INDUSTRY OF VISCOSUPPLEMENTATION, NOT FIDIA PHARMACEUTICALS ALONE.


I realize that tensions are mounting and of course I would like an update also but pls chill :]

 

[Armando Jose]

Maybe the solution does not come from Italy but Spain, check this out, this really comes in september and it seems to work, what do you guys think?

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vytrus-hair--2#/

http://www.vytrushair.com/es/

Here the two patents,
http://consultas2.oepm.es/InvenesWeb/detalle?referencia=P201530157
http://consultas2.oepm.es/InvenesWeb/detalle?referencia=E12382351

Oscar is one of the owners of the firm, did he used the product? or is the guy in the before/after photo?