I'd like to see some proof that "a gene gets turned on"

[Bryan]

And wow, it does seem that low T really encourages DHT production as well... that makes sense.

Really? How does it do that, and how does it make sense?

Because the body reacts to the low T (or the high estrogen, it makes little difference as the two usually go hand in hand anyway) by making more DHT, and possibly even more potent DHT!

There is no feedback system that "reacts" to low T by making more DHT; at least, I've never heard of such a thing. FYI: I have a study which measured serum T and DHT levels before-and-after castration; T dropped by around 95%, and DHT dropped by around 70%. How do you explain THAT?

The claim that the body "reacts" to estrogen by making more DHT is just as ridiculous; that idiot misterE (he appears to be gone now, and I'm glad about it) kept saying that over and over, and I kept citing that study for him in which an aromatase inhibitor was given to men with BPH (lowering their estrogen levels), and their T and DHT levels went UP, not DOWN! That shows that you should just ignore these ridiculous theories that you read on the Internet about what causes balding! Pay attention to what doctors and scientists say, not these anonymous yahoos with their goofy ideas.

This explains why people with metabolic syndrome bald, old people bald etc!

Baloney. B-A-L-O-N-E-Y. I've already wasted too much time on all this rubbish.

You know what I think would be epic though? For you to have a debate with the OTHER Brian! (Brian Simonis)

Who the hell is Brian Simonis?

 

[Hoppi]

There is no feedback system that "reacts" to low T by making more DHT; at least, I've never heard of such a thing. FYI: I have a study which measured serum T and DHT levels before-and-after castration; T dropped by around 95%, and DHT dropped by around 70%. How do you explain THAT?

Well by that point the testosterone level is so crazy low there's nothing to make dht FROM! lol

I mean obviously it only happens to a point, otherwise transsexuals would bald!

Who the hell is Brian Simonis?

Your arch nemesis O.O lol

I dunno if I'm really supposed to link, but it's just for the purposes of showing you who this is, and I would just love to see your reaction and interpretations to his research and theories on hair loss



Hoppi!

 

[optimus prime]

Bryan,

What do you think of Dr. William Rassman?

He doesn't think much of spironolactone cream and claims that:

'An itchy scalp is not a symptom of male pattern balding.'

Yet for me it is...

Does he have a hidden agenda?

 

[Hoppi]

he wants us all to be bald O.O


rofl

 

[Bryan]

Well by that point the testosterone level is so crazy low there's nothing to make dht FROM! lol

Like another poster said, testosterone is the substrate from which DHT is made. In the total and utter lack of any scientific evidence to support that nutso idea, it's pretty ridiculous to think that the body "reacts" to low testosterone by making more DHT!

Who the hell is Brian Simonis?

Your arch nemesis O.O lol

Is he Lex Luthor to my Superman?

I dunno if I'm really supposed to link, but it's just for the purposes of showing you who this is, and I would just love to see your reaction and interpretations to his research and theories on hair loss


Spare me a lot of wasted reading time by just giving me this one simple piece of information: does he also believe (like you and misterE) that the body "reacts" to estrogen by making more DHT? That's my litmus test. My pass/fail test.

 

[abcdefg]

If many factors contribute to male pattern baldness and diet is just one of them then explain to me why 95 percent of women that are 40 years old have never lost any hair, but men of the same age are balding big time? How can you possibly explain that other then to say genes and hormones are the main differences between men and women and perfectly explains why that is from what science knows so far.

Women produce estradiol which protects hair and men don't. Diet can affect the rate at which Androgenetic Alopecia progresses. Eating a high fiber, low fat, and low protein diet will increase SHBG and lower free testosterone and DHT which will slow the rate of progression. Also certain herbs have been shown to downplay some of the negative growth factors that androgens induce on scalp hair follicles.

How on this can you attribute women not losing any hair solely to them having high amounts of estradiol? It is equally likely the low amounts of androgens could be why women do not lose hair as they age. Some women eat garbage and do not lose any hair still. How do we know how much of a role estradiol has in comparison to the low androgens in explaining women not losing hair?

 

[Hoppi]

Bryan - just because you don't agree with it it doesn't mean it's untrue. I have decided to go with it because it's come from someone I really respect (Brian) and it backs up what I see around me (people getting accelerating baldness as they get older, metabolic syndrome causing baldness etc etc). It also makes sense as a reaction of the male body, to ensure estrogen doesn't get too dominant. DHT I believe is more potent than testosterone, so it's like a defence mechanism.

I intend to find a bit more proof later, as I would quite like that as well, but there does seem to be a connection between older men, men with metabolic syndrome, and low T and high E, and I believe to high DHT. It just all feels very right! I'll do more research later

For the record though I don't believe it for the same reason as misterE. He believed I think that SHBG latches onto estrogen and carries it TO the follicles, where it harms them just like DHT would. I have seen no evidence anywhere for anything like this, so unless there is a lot of corrupt (reputable looking) information out there, I think that was just his unique take on it.

It did get me thinking about the point he was making about older and younger men and hair loss though.

How on this can you attribute women not losing any hair solely to them having high amounts of estradiol? It is equally likely the low amounts of androgens could be why women do not lose hair as they age. Some women eat garbage and do not lose any hair still. How do we know how much of a role estradiol has in comparison to the low androgens in explaining women not losing hair?

I think it plays a role, and it makes good sense to me!

I probably lowered my T levels with stress and a bad diet ._.

Man, thank god I didn't take much finasteride or my E would probably have run rampant! rofl

From what I can tell, the high DHT is there for a REASON!! (to stop you becoming a woman lol)

 

[Bryan]

Bryan - just because you don't agree with it it doesn't mean it's untrue. I have decided to go with it because it's come from someone I really respect (Brian) and it backs up what I see around me (people getting accelerating baldness as they get older, metabolic syndrome causing baldness etc etc). It also makes sense as a reaction of the male body, to ensure estrogen doesn't get too dominant. DHT I believe is more potent than testosterone, so it's like a defence mechanism.

Okay; you can believe anything you want, obviously, but _I_ will always choose to cast my lot with more scientific approaches. By the way, you didn't answer my question: does that "Brian Simonis" guy believe that the body makes more DHT as a "reaction" to estrogen?

 

[Hoppi]

Bryan - just because you don't agree with it it doesn't mean it's untrue. I have decided to go with it because it's come from someone I really respect (Brian) and it backs up what I see around me (people getting accelerating baldness as they get older, metabolic syndrome causing baldness etc etc). It also makes sense as a reaction of the male body, to ensure estrogen doesn't get too dominant. DHT I believe is more potent than testosterone, so it's like a defence mechanism.

Okay; you can believe anything you want, obviously, but _I_ will always choose to cast my lot with more scientific approaches. By the way, you didn't answer my question: does that "Brian Simonis" guy believe that the body makes more DHT as a "reaction" to estrogen?

Either that or low T. But yes he does believe that DHT increases in older guys, people with metabolic syndrome etc, as I understand. Therefore he believes the best idea is to have a good high T level, but also an adequate SHBG level to ensure all the excess gets mopped up. Makes perfect sense to me, sounds very healthy for a guy!

 

[Bryan]

Either that or low T. But yes he does believe that DHT increases in older guys, people with metabolic syndrome etc, as I understand.

I didn't ask if he believes that DHT increases in older guys (although I think I did mention to you a while back that I have a French study that found that there were no significant changes in DHT levels as we get older), I was only interested in this specific question: does he really believe that the body makes more DHT as a "reaction" to estrogen? If you say that that's what he believes (and he even believes that it may be a "reaction" to low testosterone levels), then that's sufficient for me. That's all I need to know. I'll put him in the same Nutso Category as I do misterE!

 

[shadowRX]

If you close your eyes and believe enough that you aren't bald all of your hair will grow back.

 

[Hoppi]

Either that or low T. But yes he does believe that DHT increases in older guys, people with metabolic syndrome etc, as I understand.

I didn't ask if he believes that DHT increases in older guys (although I think I did mention to you a while back that I have a French study that found that there were no significant changes in DHT levels as we get older), I was only interested in this specific question: does he really believe that the body makes more DHT as a "reaction" to estrogen? If you say that that's what he believes (and he even believes that it may be a "reaction" to low testosterone levels), then that's sufficient for me. That's all I need to know. I'll put him in the same Nutso Category as I do misterE!

Maybe it would prove constructive to actually talk to him, or read more into what he writes. The guy has controlled his hair loss without any of the products you mention, and taught and encouraged others to do the same, and yet you still imply it's impossible?

If you close your eyes and believe enough that you aren't bald all of your hair will grow back.

I'm very, very far from bald lol

 

[Hoppi]

What a nice advert! Thank you MrPaulo! xD

 

[Hoppi]

bump! (to escape the spam) lol

 

[baller234]

Maybe it would prove constructive to actually talk to him, or read more into what he writes. The guy has controlled his hair loss without any of the products you mention, and taught and encouraged others to do the same, and yet you still imply it's impossible?

That's disputable. All he has are some photos that are very inconclusive. At best he has maintained what he has but really that is not at all uncommon for middleage guys to do. Many men (my father included) have experienced rapid hair loss in their 20s and then have it slow down drastically and not change much for the rest of their life.

 

[baller234]

If many factors contribute to male pattern baldness and diet is just one of them then explain to me why 95 percent of women that are 40 years old have never lost any hair, but men of the same age are balding big time? How can you possibly explain that other then to say genes and hormones are the main differences between men and women and perfectly explains why that is from what science knows so far.

Women produce estradiol which protects hair and men don't. Diet can affect the rate at which Androgenetic Alopecia progresses. Eating a high fiber, low fat, and low protein diet will increase SHBG and lower free testosterone and DHT which will slow the rate of progression. Also certain herbs have been shown to downplay some of the negative growth factors that androgens induce on scalp hair follicles.

How on this can you attribute women not losing any hair solely to them having high amounts of estradiol? It is equally likely the low amounts of androgens could be why women do not lose hair as they age. Some women eat garbage and do not lose any hair still. How do we know how much of a role estradiol has in comparison to the low androgens in explaining women not losing hair?

It is most definitely the estradiol. Estradiol is an antagonist to testosterone. The more estradiol in your body the less androgens are going to be there. Not only that, but estrogens have a hair growing effect completley seperate from reducing androgens (pregnant women have extra scalp hair growth due to the large amounts of estriol during pregnancy).

Take a look at post menopausal women. After menopause their estrogen output dramatically declines and hormones like testosterone are allowed to increase more so than they were able to prior to menopause. This is why many women start loosing their hair after menopuase.

 

[Hoppi]

I still find it very odd that older age and metabolic syndrome correlates so strongly with hair loss, and yet is associated with low T and high E. The only explanation is something triggering DHT levels to increase, or possibly inflammation but that's more of a long shot. Or yeah some wacky gene activation thing lol

 

[Bryan]

I didn't ask if he believes that DHT increases in older guys (although I think I did mention to you a while back that I have a French study that found that there were no significant changes in DHT levels as we get older)...

Here's a study that I just saw posted over on HLH. Notice how DHT went DOWN in older men, not UP; furthermore, the changes were statistically significant! Hoppi, isn't it time you started paying more attention to what real doctors and scientists say, instead of those quacks on the Internet?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/946928

Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1976 Jun;82(2):444-8.

"Serum 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone and testosterone changes with age in man." Lewis JG, Ghanadian R, Chisholm GD.

Serum 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and testosterone (T) were measured in 98 normal adult men aged between 20-80 years, separating T and DHT by thin layer chromatography and using a sensitive and reliable radio-immunoassay. In three age groups between 20-40, 40-60 and 60-80, the means +/- SEM for serum DHT were 84 +/- 4, 79 +/- 3 and 67 +/- 3 (ng/100 ml) respectively. The corresponding values for testosterone were 559 +/- 25, 491 +/- 25 and 475 +/- 28 (ng/100 ml). A significant decrease was observed in the DHT level of the 60-80 years age group compared to either the 20-40 (P less than 0.01) or the 40-60 (P less than 0.02) age groups. There was a moderate decline in the testosterone level of the 60-80 years age group compared to 20-40 years (P less than 0.05) but there were no significant changes in the testosterone levels between other groups.

 

[Hoppi]

lol ok

I think the best idea if you want to argue this is to talk about it with Brian Simonis, not me


EDIT -- I think one of the issues I have here Bryan is the number of things you can't explain.

1) WHY do people with metabolic syndrome lose their hair more?

2) WHY does beer and alcohol increase shedding?

3) Why does stress increase shedding?



You just can't solve these things with Propecia and Rogaine. Well, you can, but you shouldn't.

Hoppi

 

[Bryan]

lol ok

I think the best idea if you want to argue this is to talk about it with Brian Simonis, not me

I'm just alerting you to the distinct possibility that it's not a good idea to put all your faith and trust in some Internet guru, if that guru's claims all go against what doctors and scientists say.

EDIT -- I think one of the issues I have here Bryan is the number of things you can't explain.

1) WHY do people with metabolic syndrome lose their hair more?

2) WHY does beer and alcohol increase shedding?

3) Why does stress increase shedding?

I don't know that any of those things happen. Can you cite any scientific studies to support them? (Oh, there I go again: asking for scientific evidence for something, rather than just BLINDLY BELIEVING every little thing I see on the Internet! )