I'd like to see some proof that "a gene gets turned on"

[Hoppi]

Because I don't really believe it at the moment. I mean my mind is open to the possibility yes, but it just doesn't make sense. I mean people have fixed their male pattern baldness with diet and all sorts :-S

I just think there are a LOT of factors as to how genetically susceptible follicles can be upset. If your thyroid is out of balance, it can cause it. If your liver is unhealthy, it can cause it. If you're eating too many inflammatory foods, it can cause it.

If your insulin resistance increases, that can cause it too.

If any other glands are playing up that can cause it. Amongst probably many other factors that I don't know about.

But... yeah I need proof, an actual scientific study that says that a gene is switched on due to a stimulus (be that diet, stress, age etc) and after that you lose hair because the gene is on.

I am open to the possibility, but currently I have far more reason NOT to believe it.

Hoppi

 

[Mopless]

I mean people have fixed their male pattern baldness with diet and all sorts :-S

Not to be an ***, but if someone could cure their hairloss with diet, then forums like this would not exist. Diet helps, but to say people can "FIX" their male pattern baldness with diet is just plain silly.

As per genetic hairloss - Is it that you don't believe it, or that you don't WANT to believe it?

 

[Hoppi]

Oh male pattern hair loss is genetic, no doubt about it. But many, many things trigger and aggravate it. Diet is just one of them.

 

[DoctorHouse]

I'd like to see some proof that Hoppi and CCS are not the same person or at least from the same biological parents...................... :whistle:

 

[Hoppi]

Who is CCS? ._.

 

[Hoppi]

Diet helps, but to say people can "FIX" their male pattern baldness with diet is just plain silly.

I'm not saying they can I'm saying that unless they're lying then they HAVE. I've heard it at least twice recently - Brain's Expel Hair cut gluten from his diet and someone else cut all inflammatory foods (what these are specifically probably varies person to person).

For me, I could probably solve my male pattern baldness by removing the symptoms of my previous stress and bad diet from my hair follicles. A less inflammatory, lower carb diet, curcumin and resveratrol to kill 2/3 pathways of stress to follicles, HMR lignan to offset my lower SHBG and iodine & selenium to improve my thyroid hormones sensitivity.

In the long run I'll have to keep thinking of ways to lower my anxiety so it doesnt affect my body so much ._. Holy Basil is apparently good for balancing stress hormones too.

Anyway, this should work, as instead of just bluntly reducing 5ar, I am dealing with the problem much closer to source We'll see what happens!

 

[DoctorHouse]

Who is CCS? ._.

I see you failed to do your research on the most famous poster on this forum? CCS aka College Chemistry Student is a legend on here and for some reason I am getting the feeling you may have some legend potential as well........................................... :whistle:

 

[uncomfortable man]

For me, I could probably solve my male pattern baldness by removing the symptoms of my previous stress and bad diet from my hair follicles.

If it is male pattern baldness then stress and diet will have a minimum impact if any on regrowth. If it is non male pattern baldness hairloss ie. a mature hairline or some thinning in your 70's then that hairloss would be minimal too and not follow the progressive pattern that is male pattern baldness. Any lost hair on a non male pattern baldness head due to stress or poor diet can be easily recovered. How early and how aggressive hairloss hits (if at all) in any given individual is also in the genetic cards as well. The genes are most likely turned on during puberty (big hormonal flux) and then it is just a matter of time for them to do their work at their pre-designated pace. You probably don't even have male pattern baldness though, in which case all of your research is for not, unless you have a bleeding heart for us baldies (which I doubt). The inference of your "thesis" that I am bald as a result of poor lifestyle choices is insulting to say the least. The worst part is that there are plenty of ignorant people out there that will buy that BS explanation, giving more credibility to a stigma that has caused enough damage already. Meanwhile, there is a fat, greasy (sebum) slob out there with a beautiful head of hair doing the Happy Meal Dance laughing at you.

 

[uncomfortable man]

Ooooor it could be that you had high insulin levels in a past life, in which case I have the number of a good witchdoctor you could call. He's got some great hollistic stuff for you to trip on while he puts you in a retro cognizant trance so that you can amend the sins of your ancestors and save your hair karma.

 

[Hoppi]

I really never said that people were losing hair because of particularly bad lifestyle or anything. I said that CAN trigger it (such as in people with metabolic syndrome it seems to, or in me probably making myself resistant to thyroid hormones and lowering my SHBG too far). i dunno man, I'd need to see proof of this gene activation thing as I think there are lots of reasons why male pattern baldness can feel "irreversible" but it may well not be that. Brains Expel Hair did it by giving up gluten, and looking at these freezing axillary temperature readings, I should be able to do it by correcting my thyroid hormone sensitivity and balancing my stress hormones / lifting my SHBG. Time will tell eh?

 

[Hoppi]

In a way, I mean, as long as hopefully the gene being triggered thing ISN'T true (I have no way to say either way, I have not examined what happens in strands of DNA when whatever triggers the male pattern baldness gene to "turn on" happens - I would have to be doing some pretty intense research for that! Any studies to prove it?) male pattern baldness... it can kinda be seen as a good thing for many people, IF the gene thing isn't true.

It warned me, you know? If this is right then, it means it was like my body telling me that my thyroid was wrong, my body telling me that my liver's balance was off, that my stress was negatively impacting my body. For some people it might be the body saying they're eating a bad food (for them specifically, like perhaps gluten). It's like the hair is one of the most sensitive things of all, so it will show symptoms before anything else does. So for many people who don't have REALLY sensitive hair follicles, I am not ruling out the idea of male pattern baldness being like a warning flag, and in that respect that is incredibly useful to have. Maybe, if I can reverse this, I will learn in the future that whenever I start to lose a bit of hair, it means something is probably wrong in my body that is messing up my hormones, levels of inflammation, levels of free radicals, sebum production etc, all these many things that can make hair fall out.

God knows, but at this point I am certainly not ruling it out


EDIT -- And for older guys, maybe it's the body saying that it's testosterone levels are too low and it's estrogen levels are too high, and possibly also that it's insulin levels are too high (which results in the same thing I believe anyway). You see my logic?

 

[Bryan]

EDIT -- And for older guys, maybe it's the body saying that it's testosterone levels are too low and it's estrogen levels are too high, and possibly also that it's insulin levels are too high (which results in the same thing I believe anyway). You see my logic?

The only logic i see in that is that you've been spending too much time reading and taking seriously Internet quacks like "Dr. Wong". I recommend that you give it up. It's a dead-end.

 

[Hoppi]

EDIT -- And for older guys, maybe it's the body saying that it's testosterone levels are too low and it's estrogen levels are too high, and possibly also that it's insulin levels are too high (which results in the same thing I believe anyway). You see my logic?

The only logic i see in that is that you've been spending too much time reading and taking seriously Internet quacks like "Dr. Wong". I recommend that you give it up. It's a dead-end.

Then prove me wrong instead of trying to scare me off

lol and it had nothing to do with Dr Wong hehe, it (the whole thing, not just the detail about why older guys lose hair) came largely from Brian Simonis but also my own application of logic and research to what I was seeing.

And we'll have to see won't we? If I correct all my underlying medical problems and yet i STILL lose hair, then I will admit that the only solution is to bluntly drop 5ar levels and/or tackle the problem as if it was a standalone medical condition.

But if I correct my thyroid, increase my SHBG, drop my stress hormones (and their effects) and correct my insulin sensitivity and my hair loss reverses and my shedding stops, then that will prove to me this has nothing to do with a gene "switching on" according to stimuli and it's just an excuse to sell us yet another long-term drug "fix".

Time will tell


EDIT -- In addition it can hardly be that much of a dead end if it's already probably diagnosed me with an important medical situation (hypothyroidism).

 

[moxsom]

Then prove me wrong instead of trying to scare me off

There is so much research saying that androgens damage your hair follicle it's not even funny.

 

[Hoppi]

There is so much research saying that androgens damage your hair follicle it's not even funny.

That's not what I'm disputing.

 

[baller234]

When androgens bind to the androgen receptor inside the hair follicle, they cause a myriad of negative growth factors to be released. Your whole concept of a gene turning on and off is misconstrued and oversimplified. There is more than one gene responsible and these genes are ALWAYS present. In the absence of androgens these genes are dormant. In the presence of androgens, these genes become active.

Androgenetic Alopecia is a genetic response to the presence of androgens, just like body and facial hair.

 

[Hoppi]

But people are still very successfully missing my point. Surely you must understand that I know the mechanism by which testosterone and DHT affect hair follicles by now, I have put a LOT of time into studying this stuff! I also understand how there are multiple genes connected with hair loss.

The reason I am putting my request like this is because it was implied to me that once you've "switched on" this "male pattern baldness gene" that's it, and now whatever you do you're screwed because now this gene is "active" because of the stress or whatever you put your body through, age you reached, etc. So, it actually switched itself on in response to certain stimuli, as opposed to just being there and active the whole time, but only EXPRESSING itself when exposed to certain stimuli, which is my current take on things. Again sorry I know I'm being sloppy by saying "it", but you know what I mean

What seems likely to me, is that people increase inflammation, lower their SHBG, somehow have low or high T/E levels, throw their thyroid hormones off-balance, increase their insulin resistance or something like that, and this causes hair loss. And so they worry, and can't work out why even though they appear to have corrected the original cause (bad diet, stress, etc) their hair loss continues, when actually it might be the presence of an underlying, undiagnosed condition.

For me, for example, I would have confidently switched to my nice low-carb, healthy diet and taken lignans, and been confused when I was losing hair still. I would have gone "damn, maybe I did activate a gene..." when actually it's more likely (the way I see it currently anyway) to be my hypothyroidism possibly combined with things like inflammation caused by stress. Low SHBG therefore may have been a component in my hair loss but not the only one that must be addressed to correct it.

You have to understand that I am not arguing the expression of this gene in response to stimuli, I am not arguing that the most crucial component of these stimuli is testosterone and DHT, what I am saying is I find it hard to believe a permanent, epigenetic change occurs (I would guess in the hair follicles' DNA) that cannot be reversed, making them more sensitive to androgens. I want to see real proof of this before I believe it, and it was quite often heavily implied to me upon joining HairLossTalk.com and I am still being told it now.


EDIT -- and yes, for the record, I fully agree with you baller That's why I was confused by other things I was told!

 

[abcdefg]

If many factors contribute to male pattern baldness and diet is just one of them then explain to me why 95 percent of women that are 40 years old have never lost any hair, but men of the same age are balding big time? How can you possibly explain that other then to say genes and hormones are the main differences between men and women and perfectly explains why that is from what science knows so far. Hormones is one of the obvious differences and science says that is a big part of it how can anyone say thats not the definitive factor? I mean we do not even have any 100 percent androgen inhibitors to see what removing all androgens does. That might stop male pattern baldness forever in terms of prevention no one knows because no treatments like that exist yet.

 

[baller234]

In the absence of androgens these genes are dormant. In the presence of androgens, these genes become active.

The genes are only ACTIVE when there are androgens present. When androgens are taken away they become dormant (castration stops Androgenetic Alopecia). You have these genes from BIRTH.

Think of body hair. Prior to puberty, body/facial hair is thin/nonexistant. Once puberty begins these follicles are exposed to androgens and begin to grow. This doesn't happen overnight because androgenic sensitivty increases with age which is why men generally tend to get hairier as they age (think of the AVERAGE amount of body hair on an 18 year old compared to a 30 year old.)

Androgenetic Alopecia is the same way. It is a gradual progression of increasing androgenic sensitivity, the rate of which is determined by the concentration of androgens. There is no single event that takes place to make hair follicles "sensitive". You are born with "sensitive" hair follicles, to what extent is determined by genetics.

 

[baller234]

If many factors contribute to male pattern baldness and diet is just one of them then explain to me why 95 percent of women that are 40 years old have never lost any hair, but men of the same age are balding big time? How can you possibly explain that other then to say genes and hormones are the main differences between men and women and perfectly explains why that is from what science knows so far.

Women produce estradiol which protects hair and men don't. Diet can affect the rate at which Androgenetic Alopecia progresses. Eating a high fiber, low fat, and low protein diet will increase SHBG and lower free testosterone and DHT which will slow the rate of progression. Also certain herbs have been shown to downplay some of the negative growth factors that androgens induce on scalp hair follicles.