I'd like to see some proof that "a gene gets turned on"

[dpdr]

Hoppi, stop trolling in forum, you create many topics almost every week here :thumbdown2:

Why? People like Hoppi are the reasons why the human race evolves. He asks questions.

The only ones who can answer questions Hoppi are misterE and staff forum Immortalhair, had a time where I came to believe more in this business of Diet, Stress in male pattern baldness, but it did not work much on me and saw that it is not as simple as stopping the male pattern baldness, As I said before, if you want to stop once the male pattern baldness, change your lifestyle, diet and use powerful drugs such as Flutamide Topic, spironolactone Oral or RU58841

 

[Hoppi]

Hoppi, stop trolling in forum, you create many topics almost every week here :thumbdown2:

Why? People like Hoppi are the reasons why the human race evolves. He asks questions.

The only ones who can answer questions Hoppi are misterE and staff forum IH, had a time where I came to believe more in this business of Diet, Stress in male pattern baldness, but it did not work much on me and saw that it is not as simple as stopping the male pattern baldness, As I said before, if you want to stop once the male pattern baldness, change your lifestyle, diet and use powerful drugs such as Flutamide Topic, spironolactone Oral or RU58841

Everyone's entitled to their opinions man. I mean you have to bear in mind that your hair loss hit you a little younger, so I would be more inclined to guess that yours could be down to very sensitive hair follicles (although again this could still be wrong and I would still look at liver, thyroid, stress and diet issues first, sensitivities, etc etc). I am 24 though (nearly 25) and my T and DHT levels have been at totally mature levels for... what 5/6 years at LEAST. So why have I only just started to lose hair now? Probably hormonal imbalance, inflammation, free radical activity, thyroid issues, stuff like that, stuff chucking my body off-balance and aggravating things. A bit of defence with Nizoral and stuff is good but overall I think if my body was balanced I would be ok.

The reasons for hair loss seem to differ for everyone man, and I can answer questions if I want - I have put a lot of time into researching this because I care about my hair (and also my health) very much I also care about helping others because I think hair loss is not something anyone should really have to put up with if they don't want to ._.

Also I do disagree with misterE on quite a few things, but I also respect him for thinking outside the box and chucking some really important stuff more into the mainstream on here!

Brian (Simonis) is my current top dude though! hehe

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, it's entire purpose according to modern medical literature is to mop up and regulate sex hormones.

I don't believe that to be true (that the modern medical literature makes such a fanciful claim as that). Show me something from the medical literature that says that SHBG "mops up" and "regulates" sex hormones (in the specific sense you mean)!

It seems pretty well documented to me, why do you think it's such a mystery?

I haven't seen any documentation for it at all. I don't think YOU have, either. Your problem, Hoppi, is that you read things about SHBG here and there on the Internet, and then you draw your own very dubious inferences from it.

And are you really talking about that question about the brain increasing androgens to match mopped up free T? The whole point though is that that testosterone is in EXCESS of what should be in the body, hence one of the major reasons you can trigger hair loss. There is a reason why the first thing a nurse said to me when I mentioned I was losing hair is "hmm maybe you should get your testosterone levels checked..."

It's because SHBG should be at a certain concentration, and when you start lowering it or otherwise lifting unnecessary testosterone above a certain level, it can create problems. Your body simply does not need THIS much testosterone free in the blood.

The point here is that it's your BRAIN which determines what it thinks is the correct level of androgenic stimulation, not a protein which circulates in your blood.

I would really like to see evidence that says that when SHBG is increased to healthy levels (preferably not by injection but while actually being produced by the liver), the brain increases testosterone production, because that really makes no sense to me.

Do you _really_ think that the brain doesn't closely monitor levels of androgens in the body?? Try reading any textbook on endocrinology, and you'll find out about that in a hurry!

Question: when you take a pure antiandrogen (like flutamide, for example), why does your body go into a frenzy of making more testosterone? Answer: because your brain "sees" less androgenic stimulation going on, so it forces the testes to start making more testosterone.

Question: when bodybuilders start taking steroids to help build their muscles, why do their testes start to shrink? Answer: because their brains "see" more androgenic stimulation, so they start to shut-down testosterone production in the testes.

See what I'm saying? Generally speaking, any change you make in the level of androgens in your body will tend to be fought by your brain, which monitors those levels of androgens, and takes the appropriate actions to maintain the levels which _it_ thinks are correct.

So we get back to the question I asked before: if you were to inject an external quantity of SHBG into your bloodstream every day, what would your body's reaction to that be? Would it start to get alarmed when it "sees" less androgenic stimulation around, and send the chemical signals to your testes to force them to start making more testosterone? I think the answer to that question is probably "yes" (although I'm glossing-over certain other additional considerations here).

My thoughts on SHBG are also not just expressed by me alone, they are supported by pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to that has researched it at all.

I seriously doubt that. I don't have a problem with the very basic facts (like how SHBG binds to sex hormones, rendering them inactive); the problem is when you start going past that simple kindergarten-level of understanding, and start trying to draw additional inferences like how SHBG supposedly "mops up" excessive testosterone. At that point, I think you're on verrrrry thin ice!

 

[Hoppi]

No but, this is the whole definition of "free" testosterone. Free testosterone is largely superfluous, it's just circulating around in the blood not doing all that much. I dunno man lol, we're not going to solve this anytime soon, heh.

It's not about bluntly just lowering testosterone, it's about making the body healthy enough that it regulates it properly. All hormones can get too high under the right, or wrong, stimuli.

Whatever though, we always end up getting into these arguments and they always leave me baffled ._.

If you can find me just ONE piece of unbiased medical literature that says that SHBG does not aid in regulating (and therefore for many of us lowering) free testosterone and estrogen, then please point me to it!

And then assuming you can't, we then need to keep SHBG levels optimal, and it is often established that a healthy liver and a good hormonal balance encourage a healthier level of SHBG. That is what most things you can read through searching or through looking in most places will tell you (they may point fingers at insulin, or IGF-1, or liver fat production etc as specific SHBG regulators, but the basic point is a healthy body with a healthy liver will have more SHBG!). Again, I would be very interested in some reputable medical literature that states otherwise.


EDIT and Bryan I am not saying that people who already have optimal or high levels of SHBG should try to lift it further, I never said that and maybe that's where this misunderstanding is coming in. I am saying that if you have reason to suspect your SHBG levels might not be optimal then you may want to consider dietary changes or lignans, etc. And seeing as most western foods are quite stodgy and full of carbs, sugar, etc, isn't it a fairly logical assumption that they are not helping in your liver's attempts to maintain healthy SHBG levels?


At this point I should really rest my case but why do I get the feeling this is not over ._. lol

 

[Bryan]

No but, this is the whole definition of "free" testosterone. Free testosterone is largely superfluous, it's just circulating around in the blood not doing all that much.

Huh? HUH??? Free testosterone is sure as hell not "superfluous". It enters the cells of various tissues around the body, where it can have many bad AND good effects! It helps build muscles and make us horny, but it also enlarges prostates and causes male pattern balding. Do you call all THAT "superfluous"? :dunno:

I dunno man lol, we're not going to solve this anytime soon, heh.

I'm doing my best to explain to you why this issue having to do with SHBG is a lot more complicated than you think. My favorite quotation of Einstein is this one: "Physics should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." The same goes for the study of SHBG: it should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler than possible!

It's not about bluntly just lowering testosterone, it's about making the body healthy enough that it regulates it properly. All hormones can get too high under the right, or wrong, stimuli.

Yes, but it's the purpose of the brain to monitor levels of testosterone, not a protein that's circulating in the blood.

If you can find me just ONE piece of unbiased medical literature that says that SHBG does not aid in regulating (and therefore for many of us lowering) free testosterone and estrogen, then please point me to it!

Hey, I can't prove that it DOESN'T, and you can't prove that it DOES!

To prove either one convincingly, I think they'd have to inject volunteers with external SHBG over an extended period of time; I think such an experiment is unlikely ever to be done, even though the results would be fascinating for us.

And then assuming you can't, we then need to keep SHBG levels optimal, and it is often established that a healthy liver and a good hormonal balance encourage a healthier level of SHBG. That is what most things you can read through searching or through looking in most places will tell you (they may point fingers at insulin, or IGF-1, or liver fat production etc as specific SHBG regulators, but the basic point is a healthy body with a healthy liver will have more SHBG!). Again, I would be very interested in some reputable medical literature that states otherwise.

To get a better understanding of the way the brain controls androgen production, I suggest you read the chapter "Androgens" in the standard medical reference book "Goodman and Gilman's The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics". You can find a copy in most any used-book store for a reasonable price, and it's good reading. Maybe you'll start to believe what I'm telling you!

 

[Bryan]

EDIT and Bryan I am not saying that people who already have optimal or high levels of SHBG should try to lift it further, I never said that and maybe that's where this misunderstanding is coming in. I am saying that if you have reason to suspect your SHBG levels might not be optimal then you may want to consider dietary changes or lignans, etc. And seeing as most western foods are quite stodgy and full of carbs, sugar, etc, isn't it a fairly logical assumption that they are not helping in your liver's attempts to maintain healthy SHBG levels?

For the reasons I've already explained in some detail, I have serious doubts that there's any such thing as an "optimal" or "healthy" level of SHBG.

 

[Hoppi]

For the reasons I've already explained in some detail, I have serious doubts that there's any such thing as an "optimal" or "healthy" level of SHBG.

Everything has a healthy, optimal level.

And I'm not saying that free testosterone is all bad, of course not, I'm just saying there are limits to how much someone might want, if they want to keep their hair.


I think to claim the body is capable of regulating hormones perfectly the whole time is a little bit naive, even small things like stress, depression, bad diet, all these things can trigger chains of hormonal unbalances and problems. What makes you think sex hormones are any different?


The truth is of course this is only one part of the battle against hair loss, and inhibiting 5ar systemically is semi-constructive but not normally particularly necessary. The core of this part of things is basically nothing more than "balance your hormones" That's all there is to it

Hey, I can't prove that it DOESN'T, and you can't prove that it DOES!

Bryan, as far as I can tell the whole of GOOGLE backs me up! lol

I can pop to one of the unis nearby and get a professor to chip in if you want!!

 

[Bryan]

Everything has a healthy, optimal level.

And I'm not saying that free testosterone is all bad, of course not, I'm just saying there are limits to how much someone might want, if they want to keep their hair.

Look, I think it's a total dead-end street to keep harping on this strategy you have of trying to make little downward changes in your level of testosterone! There's no doubt at all that making a HUGE, unnatural decrease in testosterone (like with castration, which reduces it by around 90% to 95%) would bring male pattern baldness to a sudden and dramatic end; conversely, it's been shown that even if you take biopsies from people who aren't even balding and add large, unnatural levels of testosterone to them, even THOSE follicles will start to go bald! :shock:

But that doesn't mean that the Average Joe out there who is balding has "too much testosterone"!! I've been saying for years that the specific level of androgens in such people plays a relatively insignificant role; much more important, in my opinion, is that such individuals (balding individuals) have an unfortunate genetic sensitivity to the relatively normal levels of androgens that they have. That genetic sensitivity has to do with the specific characteristics of the scalp hair follicles themselves.

I think to claim the body is capable of regulating hormones perfectly the whole time is a little bit naive, even small things like stress, depression, bad diet, all these things can trigger chains of hormonal unbalances and problems. What makes you think sex hormones are any different?

They aren't. But don't let yourself be fooled into thinking that minor variations in the level of testosterone are what determines whether or not you go bald!!

The truth is of course this is only one part of the battle against hair loss, and inhibiting 5ar systemically is semi-constructive but not normally particularly necessary. The core of this part of things is basically nothing more than "balance your hormones" That's all there is to it

I think trying to control your male pattern baldness by "balancing your hormones" is silly, naive, and pretty-much doomed to fail. :sobbing:

 

[Hoppi]

I think trying to control your male pattern baldness by "balancing your hormones" is silly, naive, and pretty-much doomed to fail. :sobbing:

That's only one part of what needs to be a somewhat larger strategy. Besides it's all wonderful for your health.

Additionally, if my follicles were THAT sensitive I would have started losing hair at about 18, or whenever my androgen levels reached maturity (which I hardly think just happened at 24! xD)

Anyway, I'd like to ask you 2 questions:

Firstly, what do YOU think the cure/treatment for hair loss is?

Secondly, how do you explain all the guys on places like Immortal Hair who are regrowing and then maintaining great hair without finasteride, Nizoral or Minoxidil? At least one guy has done it with diet alone I believe.


I await your response to that one

 

[timbo]

Additionally, if my follicles were THAT sensitive I would have started losing hair at about 18, or whenever my androgen levels reached maturity (which I hardly think just happened at 24! xD)

I would say that losing hair at age 24 makes a stronger case that your follicles ARE genetically sensitive.

 

[Bryan]

Additionally, if my follicles were THAT sensitive I would have started losing hair at about 18, or whenever my androgen levels reached maturity (which I hardly think just happened at 24! xD)

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE!

A very important study that was done with stumptailed macaques clearly showed that the sensitivity of their scalp hair follicles to androgens changed over a period of time. Prior to puberty, biopsies of their follicles showed no sensitivity at all to testosterone; when the same test was done later sometime AFTER puberty, their follicles showed the usual very negative growth inhibition from testosterone, proving that something in their scalp hair follicles (something having to do with their response to androgens) had changed over a period of time. The same thing almost certainly happens in humans, too. I think it continues to get worse with age. That explains very simply why some guys don't start balding until later in life.

Anyway, I'd like to ask you 2 questions:

Firstly, what do YOU think the cure/treatment for hair loss is?

The best treatments we currently have are the usual ones that you read about on these forums: Propecia, Rogaine, Proxiphen, Tricomin, Folligen, etc.

Secondly, how do you explain all the guys on places like Immortal Hair who are regrowing and then maintaining great hair without finasteride, Nizoral or Minoxidil? At least one guy has done it with diet alone I believe.

I await your response to that one

Sorry, but I just don't think reports of successful dietary treatments on the Internet are particularly credible. Get back to me when you see such a report in a medical journal!

 

[Hoppi]

Sorry, but I just don't think reports of successful dietary treatments on the Internet are particularly credible. Get back to me when you see such a report in a medical journal!

What about the fact that they're walking proof?

 

[Mopless]

What about the fact that they're walking proof?

I've never met a person who has had their male pattern baldness reversed with dietary supplements that presented pictures showing visible results comparable to finasteride, minoxidil, and so on.

 

[Hoppi]

What about the fact that they're walking proof?

I've never met a person who has had their male pattern baldness reversed with dietary supplements that presented pictures showing visible results comparable to finasteride, minoxidil, and so on.

You have to be looking in the right places

 

[Mopless]

I've been on and off various hair loss forums for 6 or so years straight now. If you know of any, feel free to link as I would genially be happy to check it out. No sarcasm either. I really wish I was wrong, but years of watching and waiting says otherwise. :dunno:

 

[Jacob]

All he wants to do is direct ppl to a certain forum. Where it was asked recently- for ppl to post who have seen results. Now..the person wasn't asking for those who have grown hair via just their diet..but diet is a part of the equation over there. Not too many responded.

I'm all for a healthy diet btw..it can only help.

 

[Hoppi]

I don't WANT to direct people there it's just, it feels ridiculous when I hear so many things that are disproven the second I change tabs in my browser! lol

I can't keep saying the name though because I'm not supposed to ._.

All he wants to do is direct ppl to a certain forum. Where it was asked recently- for ppl to post who have seen results. Now..the person wasn't asking for those who have grown hair via just their diet..but diet is a part of the equation over there. Not too many responded.

I'm all for a healthy diet btw..it can only help.

Absolutely A healthy diet reduces sebum, inflammation, gets antioxidants into your system, nutrients, lowers insulin, raises SHBG, basically just helps to balance your whole system.

It does seem to be enough to stop hair loss for some, but maybe not everyone I don't know, it really depends just HOW good your diet is I suppose. One guy on that forum apparently stopped hair loss by cutting out all inflammatory foods.

It's basically a forum of people who think just like me, but are smarter O.O hehe

 

[Jacob]

Disproven..sure. You mean like Neptune Krill oil vs whatever that Vitacost krill oil was? Don't worry...it's an old joke.

Again..that thread..hardly anybody posted saying ME! ME!

 

[Hoppi]

Disproven..sure. You mean like Neptune Krill oil vs whatever that Vitacost krill oil was? Don't worry...it's an old joke.

Again..that thread..hardly anybody posted saying ME! ME!

You only have to look around on there to see how many people have put together successful regimens without finasteride, nizoral, Minoxidil, and usually without any significantly DHT-reducing components whatsoever.

Whatever man, whether you believe it or not it doesn't make it any less true.

Two people on there are actually speaking about retiring from the forum because their results are so good that they just think it is time they moved on with the info they have gained. One of those people was even the one who relied solely (I believe) on diet.

But, whatever, yep - let's just talk about finasteride all day

 

[Jacob]

At least one of those talking about retiring started saying that probably a year ago or more.

When I do look around the forum..I see tons of unrelated posts. Many of questions/answers one could Google. Many one would be better off asking in a related forum. Many who have or are putting together regimens, but are constantly looking for better things because they're far from solving their hair loss problems. It would probably help if topicals were discussed more.

Again..that thread....

I don't take finasteride..never have..never will. Same with minoxidil. I thought it was you that was using one of those... :whistle: