I'd like to see some proof that "a gene gets turned on"

[Jacob]

The thread..... :whistle:

:doh:

Jacob which thread are you talking about here? The one where there was only one success story reply? Jacob I cannot stress enough just how little that means. First of all the one success story was very positive, and second off the top of my head I can think of 3 additional members who have experienced overwhelming success with the anti-inflammatory "detox" approach, and the only reason I can't think of more is because I am new so most people are still in the "probably" category

Besides the guy who posted that thread was SO rude! The reason I didn't post anymore was I was like "Is this guy for real? "

Like it or lump it, tackling inflammation works. That has been proven by several people now, and is known anyway - I mean people always cite it as a reason to use Nizoral, but never acknowledge that it might also be an idea to ease inflammation SYSTEMICALLY as well.

The thing is about this approach is it allows you to be fantastically healthy, with perfect T and DHT levels, it will probably add years and years to your life, and yet you STILL get to keep your hair. And it does seem to be possible to do it completely systemically with no topicals whatsoever (which makes life nice and easy for me as my hair is very long so applying topicals to the scalp is difficult.. and a little tedious!).

And then if you want you can drop your DHT a bit with say 0.25 finasteride every 2 days (I am in 2 minds whether to do this - currently the lignans and curcumin are my main tools for skimming the edge off my DHT and balancing my T). I dunno I mean, it just seems for people passionate about keeping all their hair without impacting their health, I can't understand how or why this proven approach is being so thoroughly ignored.

Yes..that thread. Enough with the excuses..more would have responded if they could say things were just hunky dory.

Tackling inflammation works? Seriously? Hoppi...I and others have been talking about inflammation..even micro-inflammation..for years. Topically as well. I have never said what is being taken is particularly stupid. It's the thinking that the solution has been found, when it has not(at least not for everybody..and possibly not even most). That and things keep changing. Go to Swansonvitamins.com and Iherb.com and you can come up with 100 other "top 6"s one could put together. Actually there are probably combo products out there that would work just as well.

Hoppi..why not post Brian's pics?

 

[Jacob]

Who knows eh? I'll be very interested to see what happens in me once the inflammation has plummeted (less anxiety, accurate thyroid, good diet) and my hormones are stable (fewer stress hormones, good T and E balance)

I'll tell you what will happen. You will stick with your regimen for a year and when you don't loose any hair you will claim success. You will then be back on these forums insisting that the fact that you haven't lost any hair is because your plan worked when in fact you never had male pattern baldness to begin with. Your point will be moot but you will be too blindly invested in your theories to realize it.

Nah..he'll be using the combo they're putting together and saying he was able to get off finasteride etc and...oops..I'm spilling the beans on one of my predictions..

 

[Boondock]

Hoppi, can you find a good selection of photos showing progression of hairloss stability or improvement over time on IH?

I never really see anything. The site founder has some vague photos, but that's it.

This is why I don't believe the folks on there. Their 'success' stories are mainly verbal. They may think they have halted or slowed their hairloss, but they could be wrong. They may also be like some of the endless members of this board who have mature hairlines and consider it to be serious hairloss, and then - shock horror - don't have a worsening condition at all. It just seems a very wooly and intellectually vapid board, with members yapping on about the evils of medications. A lot of the people strike me as nuts, and I'm not going to believe their non-photographed evidence of success.

 

[Nashville Hairline]

Agree mostly with the above. I think I asked on there whether anyone >NW3 had grown back hair and got no replies either. Having been on hairloss boards a good while I suspect most on there (like every other forum) don't have what normal people call hairloss

Or maybe I'm just disillusioned cos I've taken a lot of the 'Top 6' and seen zero results.

 

[Hoppi]

It's so nice to be somewhere that's really open minded and "holistic" though.

I mean there is a good chance i do have a somewhat suppressed thyroid, and a good chance I am eating foods that are causing inflammation. There's a good chance my sex hormone balance might be out of whack.

I have learnt so much since being on there.

I know that magnesium and vitamin C are good for calming anxiety in my body now, hyaluronic acid and spirulina (both taken internally of course) will probably do my eyes a world of good, and magnesium is also good for my slightly damaged ears! lol

And it's so suspicious that everyone is coming up low on the Barnes test and often exhibiting other signs of thyroid problems isn't it?

I mean yeah it could all be junk but.. hell if it is it's incredibly constructive, healthy and apparently well-educated junk!! rofl

It explains why older guys bald faster, why stress and insulin resistance do seem to have a connection with hair loss.

Everything suddenly makes SENSE, as opposed to people just putting it down to genes and closing their eyes!! lol


EDIT -- And man I will be so happy if it works! ^_^ It makes me kinda excited thinking about it lol, as recently I have just felt SO healthy like I said, I dunno if it's the placebo effect or what but... man it's just made me so hopeful ^_^

I know so much more than I used to and I am learning tons about the human body, hair loss, and myself every day!

 

[Jacob]

I guess not.

 

[Bryan]

And it's so suspicious that everyone is coming up low on the Barnes test and often exhibiting other signs of thyroid problems isn't it?

I've heard none other than Dr. Robert Atkins (of "Low-Carbohydrate Diet" fame) say that almost EVERYBODY comes up low on the Barnes test (not just balding people), so it must not have that much to do with whether or not you're balding!

 

[Hoppi]

And it's so suspicious that everyone is coming up low on the Barnes test and often exhibiting other signs of thyroid problems isn't it?

I've heard none other than Dr. Robert Atkins (of "Low-Carbohydrate Diet" fame) say that almost EVERYBODY comes up low on the Barnes test (not just balding people), so it must not have that much to do with whether or not you're balding!

Whether or not that's true I don't think it's a reason to negate the importance of the thyroid on hair loss.

 

[Bryan]

Whether or not that's true I don't think it's a reason to negate the importance of the thyroid on hair loss.

Is almost everybody going bald?

 

[Boondock]

Hoppi, I've got to be honest with you that the IH board does appear full of quacks. I know you feel like you've "learned" something, but you really haven't.

Even when the folks there can cite scientific studies, it doesn't really help. If you have any familiarity with medicine you'll realize that there are stacks of conflicting studies; knowledge doesn't come from picking one or two to support your argument, but through reading the whole lot and getting a feel for things - alongside your actual practice of medicine.

They're also into a lot of anti-pharma crapola. I saw someone mention a drug once and the main man on the forum said something along the lines of: "all pharmaceuticals are bad." It just made me want to vomit. I also wasn't too happy about the site founder selling supplements through what seemed to be a revenue-sharing affiliate link, but that's neither here nor there.

There's a reason why most medical professionals and hairloss experts are sceptical of these theories and treatments. It's because, largely, they don't work. Thousands of people have tried this stuff, and it simply doesn't get real success. Marginal success, perhaps. But nothing significant.

There are plenty of people on this board who've tried this stuff already (myself included), and it just didn't help at all.

 

[Hoppi]

Is almost everybody going bald?

Well, largely, relatively speaking, yes. I mean, so, so many guys are losing hair young, probably far more than need to be.

And anyway regardless of this, it STILL does nothing to negate thyroid activity as a part of hair loss. I think anyone experiencing hair loss should examine their body to see if anything could be disturbing hormone balance or increasing inflammation, as both these things seem capable of causing it. Otherwise explain to me why stress seems to contribute to male pattern baldness?

Hoppi, I've got to be honest with you that the IH board does appear full of quacks. I know you feel like you've "learned" something, but you really haven't.

Even when the folks there can cite scientific studies, it doesn't really help. If you have any familiarity with medicine you'll realize that there are stacks of conflicting studies; knowledge doesn't come from picking one or two to support your argument, but through reading the whole lot and getting a feel for things - alongside your actual practice of medicine.

They're also into a lot of anti-pharma crapola. I saw someone mention a drug once and the main man on the forum said something along the lines of: "all pharmaceuticals are bad." It just made me want to vomit. I also wasn't too happy about the site founder selling supplements through what seemed to be a revenue-sharing affiliate link, but that's neither here nor there.

There's a reason why most medical professionals and hairloss experts are sceptical of these theories and treatments. It's because, largely, they don't work. Thousands of people have tried this stuff, and it simply doesn't get real success. Marginal success, perhaps. But nothing significant.

There are plenty of people on this board who've tried this stuff already (myself included), and it just didn't help at all.

The links aren't affiliate links... if you remove the number at the end the link doesn't work...

As for the anti-pharmaceuticals thing... that's an exaggeration but I see where he's coming from - there is a LOT of crap out there.

I'd love to hear a definition as well of "this stuff".. do you mean you've tried the top 6 while on an diet targeted at controlling inflammation? Otherwise if there's still something upsetting your body in your diet or whatever then it won't have as large an impact.

Also I just don't see many people on there going "It's not working for me! I don't know what to do I'm losing all my hair!" lol - everyone seems very content and confident

I mean, I'm still learning myself, but I think if inflammation is a big part of hair loss, which it seems to be, then controlling it would be very prudent.

Otherwise I'd like to know how the 2 people off the top of my head who fixed their male pattern baldness with diet alone managed it, as the only other impact that would have had would be refining of their hormonal balance, another thing that people on here claim makes no difference!!


EDIT -- Another thing, why SHOULD I simply accept that my genes are forcing me to lose hair? You have to bear in mind that had I not been told it on here (the thing about gene activation etc) it wouldn't have even crossed my mind based on what I had been reading online. My first guess would be that I had somehow pushed my T or DHT levels too high, and now I'm suspecting inflammation.

I mean yes it could be just a sudden leap in my hair follicles' androgenic sensitivity, that happened coincidentally at the same time as the sudden change in my skin, but it just seems a little bit far-fetched, it's not the kind of conclusion that I have ever heard applied to anything else in medicine.

Again, time will tell, but I think people also need to acknowledge that there may not be only one trigger for male pattern baldness (too high T, too low T, too high E, high inflammation, very sensitive follicles, etc etc etc)

And woah some of the TGF-Beta stuff here is fascinating (among other things): http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/natu ... -t2706.htm

What are our thoughts on this stuff? O.O

And don't give me just like "oh, oh it's all junk... here's a study by Dr Random that says most people don't know what TGF-Beta means...", I want actual scientific points or balanced opinions

And notice they can actually take a good shot at solving finasteride permanent sides: http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/natu ... -t2841.htm

Additionally most doctors/people seem to have no CLUE why things like stress seem to encourage male pattern baldness, let alone knowing what offsets or treats it! Hope is a rare thing sometimes isn't it? unk:

 

[armandein]

I'd like to see some proof that "a gene gets turned on".
Or better, any proof that childens have not hormones in pilosebaceous unit years before puberty.
If hormones are so important in common hair loss, we must konw when apears.

Armando

 

[Jacob]

Hoppi..I thought you were told not to link to there...? Man..if you can't even control yourself :dunno:

:laugh:

 

[Hoppi]

I dunno I mean, I just thought it had importance and I want to get information to people if I feel it is relevant. I'm only citing it and making points related to it that's all.


And wow, it does seem that low T really encourages DHT production as well... that makes sense. Ugh now I have no IDEA where my T levels probably fall!! lol

I mean lignans help anyway regardless, but.. apparently if I optimize vitamin D and don't peak my insulin or cortisol, and stay away from heavy metals like lead.. that makes it lift. I think with testosterone it's a good idea to have it semi-high, but then to have an optimal level of SHBG too, so you end up with a perfect balance. Too much or too little, and you are encouraging hair loss, from what I can tell. I think I'm gonna bung Sensoril in my regimen to increase my T, and then just watch my SHBG like a hawk! hehe

 

[uncomfortable man]

This is what you do. You light some candles, turn the lights down real low. Maybe play some Barry White while breakin out the wine. I guarantee you by the end of the night that gene will get turned on.

 

[Hoppi]

This is what you do. You light some candles, turn the lights down real low. Maybe play some Barry White while breakin out the wine. I guarantee you by the end of the night that gene will get turned on.

what gene?


And man smoking feels really good! hehe ^_^

According to what I've concluded smoking is better for your hair than drinking, but before I had all but stopped because I thought it meant certain death for my follicles lol

In fairness neither are particularly good though so I would go easy on both!


woah jeez apparently stress AND a diet heavy in carbs decrease T levels and increase insulin and cortisol. Daaayyyum. >.<

This is the first time I have ever even CONSIDERED the idea I might have high E/low T (I have no real symptoms of it, but I always assumed that because I'm losing hair that if anything is a sign of HIGH testosterone).

Wow. It seems so important to keep T levels accurate, and E and DHT preferably accurate, but you can let them dip a bit low if you want. Good diet, less stress, less insulin, regulated SHBG!

And now I will shut up because my head has been non-stop about this stuff lol

 

[Bryan]

And wow, it does seem that low T really encourages DHT production as well... that makes sense.

Really? How does it do that, and how does it make sense?

 

[Hoppi]

And wow, it does seem that low T really encourages DHT production as well... that makes sense.

Really? How does it do that, and how does it make sense?

Because the body reacts to the low T (or the high estrogen, it makes little difference as the two usually go hand in hand anyway) by making more DHT, and possibly even more potent DHT! This explains why people with metabolic syndrome bald, old people bald etc!

I mean thing is I know we've been here before

You know what I think would be epic though? For you to have a debate with the OTHER Brian! (Brian Simonis)

I mean literally, you are viewed by many as one of the most intelligent on the board right? And Brian Simonis is viewed as the most intelligent on IH etc. So... I think a Bryan v Brian confrontation would be brilliant - and probably also very productive and answer a lot of questions!

What do you say? If you're up for it I'll ask him as well. I don't want to like, stir things up or anything it's just, he can make these points WAY better than me.. and it might be quite the battle of wits! It may even end up with an audience!! hehe

Let me know what you think!


Hoppi

 

[baller234]

Hoppi,

DHT is made from testosterone. When testosterone goes down, DHT goes down. When testosterone is increased, DHT will increase. I don't understand how you can say a hormone will go up when its precursor is decreased. That's like saying testosterone will increase when there is a lack of cholesterol.

 

[Hoppi]

Hoppi,

DHT is made from testosterone. When testosterone goes down, DHT goes down. When testosterone is increased, DHT will increase. I don't understand how you can say a hormone will go up when its precursor is decreased. That's like saying testosterone will increase when there is a lack of cholesterol.

The theory is that either low T or high E stimulates the body to convert more of what it DOES have to DHT, presumably to maintain as much of it's "masculinity" as possible even at these times of hormonal imbalance. Like I say it's not really my theory, unless I am vastly misunderstanding something (and I have read it numerous times on IH), I am merely parroting it from Brian Simonis.

I have not seen studies myself, but it's the most compelling and logical explanation I've heard yet of why men with low testosterone such as those with metabolic syndrome or those of an older age, seem to bald. Surely otherwise, their T (and by your logic and my previous logic) consequently DHT would be very low compared to earlier ages/other states of health, certainly not enough to see the rapid sweeping of hair loss we often see in older men for example.

The only other explanation is a gene "switching on" again, but this makes no sense to me, for several reasons.

Aaaanyway, I am still mega curious to see what might unfold between Bryan and Brian! I was joking on another thread that I don't think their views could be less alike if they tried, and yet they both are perceived to be incredibly knowledgeable and intelligent by many people. We'll see what might happen anyway