I'd like to see some proof that "a gene gets turned on"

[Hoppi]

At least one of those talking about retiring started saying that probably a year ago or more.

When I do look around the forum..I see tons of unrelated posts. Many of questions/answers one could Google. Many one would be better off asking in a related forum. Many who have or are putting together regimens, but are constantly looking for better things because they're far from solving their hair loss problems. It would probably help if topicals were discussed more.

Again..that thread....

I don't take finasteride..never have..never will. Same with minoxidil. I thought it was you that was using one of those... :whistle:

lol you do like scoring your easy points don't you? heh

I was using finasteride briefly as I think yeah taking the very EDGE off your DHT levels is probably not dumb, but then I also think if things are at baseline levels you're probably ok anyway. I have saw palmetto on there at the moment but that's really more for prostate health as I'm playing with hormones so I wanted to exercise caution!

Additionally it probably does serve to take the very edge off my DHT (as does curcumin and probably some other things) so I think that side is probably covered anyway.


I actually find people on there very confident and successful, you certainly don't see so much of people on there going "OMGZ I'M LOSING ALL MY HAIR EVERYTHING IS FAILING I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DOOO!" lol

I also don't believe I've ever heard anyone told they "just have to live with it" or their hair loss is "too aggressive", and very rarely do people seem to revert back to normal treatments. Just my observations though, you can really feel the confidence!

Joke is as well, I feel like the second I use Nizoral my shedding is halved or more. That seems to suggest what someone told me, that hypothyroidism and stress causes chronic inflammation, which maybe Nizoral is capable of cutting through. Of course it could be the 5ar inhibition or the receptor binding properties of nizoral, etc, but it seems to happen FAST, which I find very interesting Veeeery interesting! ^_^

 

[Jacob]

That thread... :whistle:

 

[Boondock]

I've been around the boards for a while now, and like many other posters I've yet to see any evidence of diet or supplements stopping hair loss, let alone regrowing hair.

There are hundreds of threads where people demonstrate a reaction to propecia over a course of time, documented with clear, regular photographs. Most 'natural' posters either don't have photographs, have poor comparisons, don't post comparisons at all, or simply have a mature hairline which has, miraculously, stayed as a mature hairline. I think that some of these people are sincere; I just think that, on balance, they're wrong.

I don't want a debate about this, since ultimately I can't 100% prove I'm right. I'm just telling you the reality as I've seen it.

 

[Hoppi]

That thread... :whistle:

easy points... :whistle:



And I do know what you mean Boondock, but when people say "supplements don't work", it just reminds me of South Park with "Drugs are bad!" lol

The statement is just so broad that it loses all meaning! heh

Also, many of these things are aimed at reducing inflammation, balancing hormones and correcting the thyroid, not just trying to reduce 5ar. Oh I dunno ._. I just wish people would open their minds a little to the possibility that bluntly inhibiting 5ar may not be the only way to tackle hair loss. I think many people could benefit their health and the quality and density of their hair tremendously if they just took on board that simple point

 

[Boondock]

I guess that's the difference between you and me. I think supplements can have a marginal benefit, but no more than that.

You seem to have a very theoretical mindset when it comes to health. I can almost see the cogs whirring in your head when you come up with these theories: ("if x means y, and y means z, then doing x must also lead to z.")

My view is essentially inductive. I don't know the complexities and processes behind hairloss, and I don't think I'm going to figure them out. So I just go by what works. Finasteride has been shown to work, both in studies and in the evidence I've seen on this board and others. Supplements have no such backing, and, like I said earlier, I've yet to see anyone have sustainable good results by making use of them.

It doesn't matter how much it "makes sense" for all these supplements to have an effect. Until I can actually SEE them doing something, I won't be convinced.

 

[Hoppi]

I guess that's the difference between you and me. I think supplements can have a marginal benefit, but no more than that.

You seem to have a very theoretical mindset when it comes to health. I can almost see the cogs whirring in your head when you come up with these theories: ("if x means y, and y means z, then doing x must also lead to z.")

hehe I quite like that

There is definitely an element of that yes, but I also take a lot of advice from those who... not only seem to be knowledgeable, but have views which vaguely seem to agree with what I am learning and observing myself, and also those of course who have had good success. I also really love the idea of the regimen I'm putting together not only helping my hair, but benefiting my entire body and giving me so many more reasons for sticking to it other than just keeping hair on my head.

A regimen like mine or Brian's... should add some significant time to one's life and improve the quality of it drastically as well, in ADDITION to saving hair and fixing various other things while it's at it! lol

But time will tell eh? At the very least I have firm reason for believing I have a thyroid imbalance, and if I had just jumped on finasteride I would never have known!

My regimen also tackles stress through Magnesium and vitamin C, and optionally Sensoril

 

[Hoppi]

Well, whatever it's eventual affects on my hair I'm just convinced this regimen is making me feel absolutely amazing! lol

The joke is Brian's approach works by tackling everything BUT levels of DHT (unless they are particularly high, or T is particularly high through low SHBG etc). It works by eliminating the things that DHT actually TRIGGERS, and the things that create the real problems in the scalp. Things like inflammation, free radicals, bacteria, and a bunch of things I am nowhere NEAR up to understanding yet!! hehe

But assuming it works (and it seems to), it seems to be the most perfect and life-affirming regimen ever made!! lol (Brian's, not mine, although mine is heavily derived from his!).

And to give it a real extra boost, you can always inhibit DHT as WELL! If you wanted...

But it's best not to, because this way you are totally free to "be male" with totally healthy T and DHT levels, no runaway estrogen etc, brilliantly healthy and living a long and healthy life, but STILL with a full head of hair! Mad...! hehe ^_^

Peace!

Hoppi! ^_^

 

[Jacob]

The thread..... :whistle:

:doh:

 

[baller234]

Hoppi,

For future reference, don't cite websites like wikapedia. When you're putting a claim forward, you need to back it up with scholarly source(s) other wise no one is going to take your claim seriously.

 

[baller234]

Androgenetic Alopecia is the same way. It is a gradual progression of increasing androgenic sensitivity, the rate of which is determined by the concentration of androgens.

I find that last part to be an interesting claim. Can you make a case for it?

No that was just a conjecture as to how Androgenetic Alopecia functions based on the studies that you referred to below. Would you not agree that it's safe to assume that the less androgens present in the follicle, the longer it takes for it to "transition" into a state of being "sensitive" to androgens?

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE!

A very important study that was done with stumptailed macaques clearly showed that the sensitivity of their scalp hair follicles to androgens changed over a period of time. Prior to puberty, biopsies of their follicles showed no sensitivity at all to testosterone; when the same test was done later sometime AFTER puberty, their follicles showed the usual very negative growth inhibition from testosterone, proving that something in their scalp hair follicles (something having to do with their response to androgens) had changed over a period of time. The same thing almost certainly happens in humans, too. I think it continues to get worse with age. That explains very simply why some guys don't start balding until later in life.

conversely, it's been shown that even if you take biopsies from people who aren't even balding and add large, unnatural levels of testosterone to them, even THOSE follicles will start to go bald! :shock:

 

[Hoppi]

Hoppi,

For future reference, don't cite websites like wikapedia. When you're putting a claim forward, you need to back it up with scholarly source(s) other wise no one is going to take your claim seriously.

lol I know, I can just never be bothered! hehe

I thought citing the whole of Google was quite good though!

 

[Hoppi]

The thread..... :whistle:

:doh:

Jacob which thread are you talking about here? The one where there was only one success story reply? Jacob I cannot stress enough just how little that means. First of all the one success story was very positive, and second off the top of my head I can think of 3 additional members who have experienced overwhelming success with the anti-inflammatory "detox" approach, and the only reason I can't think of more is because I am new so most people are still in the "probably" category

Besides the guy who posted that thread was SO rude! The reason I didn't post anymore was I was like "Is this guy for real? "

Like it or lump it, tackling inflammation works. That has been proven by several people now, and is known anyway - I mean people always cite it as a reason to use Nizoral, but never acknowledge that it might also be an idea to ease inflammation SYSTEMICALLY as well.

The thing is about this approach is it allows you to be fantastically healthy, with perfect T and DHT levels, it will probably add years and years to your life, and yet you STILL get to keep your hair. And it does seem to be possible to do it completely systemically with no topicals whatsoever (which makes life nice and easy for me as my hair is very long so applying topicals to the scalp is difficult.. and a little tedious!).

And then if you want you can drop your DHT a bit with say 0.25 finasteride every 2 days (I am in 2 minds whether to do this - currently the lignans and curcumin are my main tools for skimming the edge off my DHT and balancing my T). I dunno I mean, it just seems for people passionate about keeping all their hair without impacting their health, I can't understand how or why this proven approach is being so thoroughly ignored.

 

[Bryan]

Androgenetic Alopecia is the same way. It is a gradual progression of increasing androgenic sensitivity, the rate of which is determined by the concentration of androgens.

I find that last part to be an interesting claim. Can you make a case for it?

No that was just a conjecture as to how Androgenetic Alopecia functions based on the studies that you referred to below. Would you not agree that it's safe to assume that the less androgens present in the follicle, the longer it takes for it to "transition" into a state of being "sensitive" to androgens?

There was nothing in that study I mentioned earlier which proved that it was the presence of androgens which causes that "transition" to occur, it just indicated that it seemed to happen sometime during (or after?) puberty. The idea that it happens because of the presence of androgens is indeed nothing more than just a hypothesis, like you said; in fact, that's what caused Stephen Foote to go ape-sh*t a long time ago when I first mentioned it to him, making him reply a bunch of times that there's no known example of a similar thing happening anywhere in biology!

So I would never simply assume that that's the case, it's just something I've mentioned in the past as a vague possibility. But the way you phrased it, I wondered if maybe you had seen some serious evidence for it that I'd missed!

 

[Hoppi]

That's fascinating actually - I mean obviously it activating during puberty is quite different to it activating due to androgens, or due to stress, vitamin deficiency or all the other many, many things people have suggested!

Who knows eh? I'll be very interested to see what happens in me once the inflammation has plummeted (less anxiety, accurate thyroid, good diet) and my hormones are stable (fewer stress hormones, good T and E balance)

 

[uncomfortable man]

Who knows eh? I'll be very interested to see what happens in me once the inflammation has plummeted (less anxiety, accurate thyroid, good diet) and my hormones are stable (fewer stress hormones, good T and E balance)

I'll tell you what will happen. You will stick with your regimen for a year and when you don't loose any hair you will claim success. You will then be back on these forums insisting that the fact that you haven't lost any hair is because your plan worked when in fact you never had male pattern baldness to begin with. Your point will be moot but you will be too blindly invested in your theories to realize it.

 

[Hoppi]

I'll tell you what will happen. You will stick with your regimen for a year and when you don't loose any hair you will claim success. You will then be back on these forums insisting that the fact that you haven't lost any hair is because your plan worked when in fact you never had male pattern baldness to begin with. Your point will be moot but you will be too blindly invested in your theories to realize it.

I have lost a LOT of hair over the past 6 months, my hair looks and feels very thin compared to normal (particularly at the top - I normally have incredibly thick hair).

Out of interest how do you explain that guy who cured his male pattern baldness by simply cutting all inflammatory foods from his diet? How do you explain the success of the IH regimen on people?

That's right, you can't. Wow, they beat male pattern baldness but they don't really lower DHT... whaaa?

xD

"I think of DHT as the messenger (no need to shoot it), but rather buffer, inhibit, minimalize the proteins and enzymes that DHT triggers instead." - IH


Why not open your mind to this stuff when it can work wonders for health and has been shown to work for.. I believe MOST people? Isn't the concept of beating male pattern baldness without dropping DHT drastically or having to apply whole ranges of topicals quite appealing?

 

[timbo]

Out of interest how do you explain that guy who cured his male pattern baldness by simply cutting all inflammatory foods from his diet? How do you explain the success of the IH regimen on people?

People have the capability to lie. I would suggest not hanging onto one piece of anecdotal evidence that can't be verified. I wouldn't even be surprised if this guy you keep talking about hasn't even posted pictures.

 

[Hoppi]

People have the capability to lie. I would suggest not hanging onto one piece of anecdotal evidence that can't be verified. I wouldn't even be surprised if this guy you keep talking about hasn't even posted pictures.

What ALL those people? All lying? And Brian has posted pictures...

And they are seriously smart like, I am a complete noob, I'm just the messenger, the one who gets all carried away and runs on here with his head full of ideas lol

But that doesn't mean that this stuff isn't true

One thing though - why is it that people think that killing inflammation, sebum etc topically (with nizoral for example) works, but reducing it systemically will have no effect?

And why are we all coming up low on the Barnes thyroid test? Why have I experienced other signs of hypothyroidism? Why are certain hormonal patterns common in people with male pattern baldness (high free T, or low T, high E and high DHT?). Why does stress seem to cause/trigger male pattern baldness? Inflammation, hormonal imbalance and the thyroid? That would make spooky sense...

There are so many questions, so many things which simply go beyond this linear idea of just reducing DHT.

 

[optimus prime]

Will you be using the same regime as him?

 

[Hoppi]

Mine is heavily derived from that one yes Brian Simonis is like my top dude at the moment! hehe

Joke is, on here my opinions are seen as being totally like, "out there" and weird, like people make fun or whatever and I'm so strange and alternative - but on the other forum my views are really normal lol

In fact, simply by including Nizoral and potentially some mild Finasteride into my regimen (it's a maybe, depending on how my body reacts to hormonal balance and a huge reduction in inflammation), I have more in common with HairLossTalk.com members than most/many people on there!