I'd like to see some proof that "a gene gets turned on"

[KANGA]

Women produce estradiol which protects hair and men don't.

Has anyone tried Estradiol (Estragel?) topically with results?

 

[Bryan]

Androgenetic Alopecia is the same way. It is a gradual progression of increasing androgenic sensitivity, the rate of which is determined by the concentration of androgens.

I find that last part to be an interesting claim. Can you make a case for it?

 

[Bryan]

Eating a high fiber, low fat, and low protein diet will increase SHBG and lower free testosterone and DHT...

That last part about how SHBG supposedly lowers bioavailable androgens like testosterone and DHT is a claim that's been repeated by numerous people on this site, but it's always bothered me a great deal. I don't know of any specific medical evidence to support that simple assumption, probably because such evidence would be difficult to come by. I don't think people really appreciate all the implications. Consider this: if you supplied a moderate amount of extra SHBG to your body every day by injecting it into your bloodstream, wouldn't your brain simply notice that there was less androgenic stimulation going on at first, and then send the chemical signals to increase your production of testosterone (and DHT, in turn)? Can anybody explain to me why that wouldn't happen, and convince me that the original premise is correct?

 

[dpdr]

But... yeah I need proof, an actual scientific study that says that a gene is switched on due to a stimulus (be that diet, stress, age etc) and after that you lose hair because the gene is on.

Hoppi, stop trolling in forum, you create many topics almost every week here :thumbdown2:

You want to stop the male pattern baldness ? Start using RU58841 and low doses of spironolactone Oral, Or start thinking about castration

 

[Hoppi]

In the absence of androgens these genes are dormant. In the presence of androgens, these genes become active.

The genes are only ACTIVE when there are androgens present. When androgens are taken away they become dormant (castration stops Androgenetic Alopecia). You have these genes from BIRTH.

Think of body hair. Prior to puberty, body/facial hair is thin/nonexistant. Once puberty begins these follicles are exposed to androgens and begin to grow. This doesn't happen overnight because androgenic sensitivty increases with age which is why men generally tend to get hairier as they age (think of the AVERAGE amount of body hair on an 18 year old compared to a 30 year old.)

Androgenetic Alopecia is the same way. It is a gradual progression of increasing androgenic sensitivity, the rate of which is determined by the concentration of androgens. There is no single event that takes place to make hair follicles "sensitive". You are born with "sensitive" hair follicles, to what extent is determined by genetics.

That's exactly what I thought, and exactly what I'm trying to say in this thread

However it was implied to me many times that a key event, be that a stressful one, bad diet, a deficiency etc actually epigenetically "activates" this gene, which is irreversible. This has been suggested to me on numerous occasions, and so if it's true I wanted proof, that's all

 

[Hoppi]

Eating a high fiber, low fat, and low protein diet will increase SHBG and lower free testosterone and DHT...

That last part about how SHBG supposedly lowers bioavailable androgens like testosterone and DHT is a claim that's been repeated by numerous people on this site, but it's always bothered me a great deal. I don't know of any specific medical evidence to support that simple assumption, probably because such evidence would be difficult to come by. I don't think people really appreciate all the implications. Consider this: if you supplied a moderate amount of extra SHBG to your body every day by injecting it into your bloodstream, wouldn't your brain simply notice that there was less androgenic stimulation going on at first, and then send the chemical signals to increase your production of testosterone (and DHT, in turn)? Can anybody explain to me why that wouldn't happen, and convince me that the original premise is correct?

SHBG binds to FREE testosterone and estrogen, not the stuff your body needs. It... kinda mops up the free stuff and stops it getting too high. It's your body's way of balancing sex hormones. That is why lignans are so praised, because they increase SHBG and so mop up your T and E that flows free and removes it naturally and healthily so it can't have any unwanted effects (including increasing hair loss).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_hormon ... g_globulin

Here you go: "Testosterone and estradiol circulate in the bloodstream, bound mostly to SHBG and to some degree bound to serum albumin. Only a small fraction is unbound, or "free," and thus biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor. The SHBG inhibits the function of these hormones. Thus bioavailability of sex hormones is influenced by the level of SHBG."

I'm sure there is other good stuff online but, I've read more than enough stuff to back this up and believe good SHBG levels are very important if not essential, particularly for younger guys. There is a huge paper on it somewhere as a pdf I'll see if I can find it at some point

But... yeah I need proof, an actual scientific study that says that a gene is switched on due to a stimulus (be that diet, stress, age etc) and after that you lose hair because the gene is on.

Hoppi, stop trolling in forum, you create many topics almost every week here :thumbdown2:

You want to stop the male pattern baldness ? Start using RU58841 and low doses of spironolactone Oral, Or start thinking about castration

As far as I can tell man that is worryingly wrong.

I thought you were open-minded and insightful about the causes of hair loss?

 

[Bryan]

That last part about how SHBG supposedly lowers bioavailable androgens like testosterone and DHT is a claim that's been repeated by numerous people on this site, but it's always bothered me a great deal. I don't know of any specific medical evidence to support that simple assumption, probably because such evidence would be difficult to come by. I don't think people really appreciate all the implications. Consider this: if you supplied a moderate amount of extra SHBG to your body every day by injecting it into your bloodstream, wouldn't your brain simply notice that there was less androgenic stimulation going on at first, and then send the chemical signals to increase your production of testosterone (and DHT, in turn)? Can anybody explain to me why that wouldn't happen, and convince me that the original premise is correct?

SHBG binds to FREE testosterone and estrogen, not the stuff your body needs. It... kinda mops up the free stuff and stops it getting too high. It's your body's way of balancing sex hormones. That is why lignans are so praised, because they increase SHBG and so mop up your T and E that flows free and removes it naturally and healthily so it can't have any unwanted effects (including increasing hair loss).

I consider all those to be HIGHLY dubious claims, worthy only of people like misterE, who likes to go waaaay overboard with his fanciful ideas!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_hormone-binding_globulin

Here you go: "Testosterone and estradiol circulate in the bloodstream, bound mostly to SHBG and to some degree bound to serum albumin. Only a small fraction is unbound, or "free," and thus biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor. The SHBG inhibits the function of these hormones. Thus bioavailability of sex hormones is influenced by the level of SHBG."

I don't have much of a problem with that rather simplistic statement; unfortunately, though, it doesn't adress AT ALL the issue I stated in my paragraph above.

I'm sure there is other good stuff online but, I've read more than enough stuff to back this up and believe good SHBG levels are very important if not essential, particularly for younger guys. There is a huge paper on it somewhere as a pdf I'll see if I can find it at some point

See if you can find anything about the issue I very carefully and specifically described above. I suspect that maybe even the medical profession itself doesn't know much about it, since I haven't run across anything about it in all this time.

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

Eating a high fiber, low fat, and low protein diet will increase SHBG and lower free testosterone and DHT...

That last part about how SHBG supposedly lowers bioavailable androgens like testosterone and DHT is a claim that's been repeated by numerous people on this site, but it's always bothered me a great deal. I don't know of any specific medical evidence to support that simple assumption, probably because such evidence would be difficult to come by. I don't think people really appreciate all the implications. Consider this: if you supplied a moderate amount of extra SHBG to your body every day by injecting it into your bloodstream, wouldn't your brain simply notice that there was less androgenic stimulation going on at first, and then send the chemical signals to increase your production of testosterone (and DHT, in turn)? Can anybody explain to me why that wouldn't happen, and convince me that the original premise is correct?

It might not be a simple if A then B sort of connection. The first part of the statement (x dietary change increases SHBG) is most likely quite true and for a reason that might actually explain the second part of the statement. Such a high carb, low protein/fat diet would actually cause a decrease in production of androgens as well as an increase in estrogens, this change in balance of hormones would actually cause the increase in SHBG, not necessarily the other way around. Low fat diets are a terrible idea for all men who aren't considering a male-to-female op in my opinion.

 

[Bryan]

It might not be a simple if A then B sort of connection. The first part of the statement (x dietary change increases SHBG) is most likely quite true and for a reason that might actually explain the second part of the statement. Such a high carb, low protein/fat diet would actually cause a decrease in production of androgens as well as an increase in estrogens, this change in balance of hormones would actually cause the increase in SHBG, not necessarily the other way around.

Exactly. An important issue here is this: which is the cause, and which is the effect? Despite these uncertainties, there have been soooo many posts here for the last few months by people who have been discussing various ways to increase SHBG, and how very important it is to do that. Until we can get some idea of the correct answers to these questions, I think it's pointless even to worry about SHBG.

 

[Hoppi]

Come on, no I'm not going down this road. SHBG is not a "theory", SHBG is not a hypothetical - according to mainstream scientific consensus SHBG is as real as blood or DHT.

I'm tired of having these arguments against opinions that fly in the face of all accepted science.

Just Google it... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=shbg


Hoppi

 

[KANGA]

Hoppi, stop trolling in forum, you create many topics almost every week here :thumbdown2:

Why? People like Hoppi are the reasons why the human race evolves. He asks questions. Questions trigger people to LOOK UP new found answers, and change how we think about conventional solutions. Sure, not all of his questions and thoughts are exactly... well... sensible, but, as with anything in life, it takes many failures to become successful.

I would much rather be part of a board that explores theories and potential pathways to cures than a board that simply answers, "ONLY THE BIG 3 WORKS. BUY IT, USE IT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TAKE A F'ING HIKE."

 

[Hoppi]

lol cheers man

But just so I can get better or explain myself or something - which questions/thoughts didn't you think were sensible? heh ._.

 

[KANGA]

lol cheers man

But just so I can get better or explain myself or something - which questions/thoughts didn't you think were sensible? heh ._.

I can't cite anything to be honest, but just to be a neutral fence sitter (and so that brian can sleep good tonight), I put that in there :mrgreen:

 

[Hoppi]

lol cheers man

But just so I can get better or explain myself or something - which questions/thoughts didn't you think were sensible? heh ._.

I can't cite anything to be honest, but just to be a neutral fence sitter (and so that brian can sleep good tonight), I put that in there :mrgreen:

hehehe ^_^

I really don't understand this anti-SHBG stuff, I discovered this stuff and made most of these hormonal links before I even joined HairLossTalk.com or knew of misterE. We had differing views on what SHBG actually DOES (mine is the commonly accepted scientific view, the one stated on Wikipedia, in articles, papers, pretty much everything that Google search will throw up, etc), but both agreed that lifting it is very important as part of an overall regimen. As part of a holistic regimen aimed at tackling hair loss root causes particularly in younger guys with high T, it is damn near essential

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

Come on, no I'm not going down this road. SHBG is not a "theory", SHBG is not a hypothetical - according to mainstream scientific consensus SHBG is as real as blood or DHT.

I'm tired of having these arguments against opinions that fly in the face of all accepted science.

Just Google it... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=shbg


Hoppi

Still the point that bryan is making is an important one, no clue if it's been addressed yet or not. Low levels of SHBG are seen in a few different diseases, now is this because the low SHBG is causing the disease or is it because the disease is causing the low SHBG? The only way to really tackle the issue fully would be to look at studies that significantly ONLY alter the SHBG levels in someone and seeing how that change affects any associated conditions.

As I mentioned above, a great way to boost SHBG levels is to increase the bodies production of estrogen. Now this is not seen as a favorable event in males so the body compensates by trying to lock up the excess estradiol with the SHBG. If the SHBG is mainly busy combatting the intrusive levels of estradiol then have you really accomplished any good?

 

[Hoppi]

Brains - that's basically what lignans do. Lignans (SDG, HMR etc) get converted to enterolactone which binds to the SHBG's receptors for estrogen, encouraging the liver to make more (SHBG), and so mopping up more T (and I believe more E as well). They also have the plus I believe of not mimicking estrogen in ANY OTHER WAY, so they have no negative effects on the body of a man or a woman - they just help regulate sex hormones. Of course, this doesn't directly affect DHT because SHBG doesn't bind to DHT, but it prevents the free T from being CONVERTED into excess DHT in the follicles and elsewhere - one of the places real problems start.

The best way to encourage SHBG though is to have a healthy liver and a healthy hormonal balance However as we all know this is difficult to achieve sometimes, I mean yesterday I had a whole bunch of pasta and today I had chocolate. Carbs and sugar. But as long as I take things like curcumin, SDG/HMR and lipoic acid, I'll probably be ok with giving myself the occasional treat ^_^

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

Ah, I now understand your lignan push.

One tip I always used to give in my cooking classes was to cook things in bulk. It takes so little extra time to actually double the quantity of most meals compared to having to cook the whole meal twice that it's a huge time saver and it will also provide you with plenty of left overs for the microwave. The only thing I don't normally make in bulk is salad as cut lettuce generally doesn't last long, however the vegetables that go in a salad are normally fine to cut up and store in a baggie in the fridge.

 

[Hoppi]

yeah you're right

Thing is about me I'm very lazy with cooking. I mean just then I made a salad with olives and... a random bean veggie burger thing and a quorn sausage lol xD

It's basically just... whatever's in the fridge so long as it's vaguely healthy!

Plus it gave me an excuse to watch Peep Show on 4 on Demand! ^_^ (British sitcom lol)

 

[Bryan]

Come on, no I'm not going down this road. SHBG is not a "theory", SHBG is not a hypothetical - according to mainstream scientific consensus SHBG is as real as blood or DHT.

I never said or implied that SHBG is a "theory", or "hypothetical", or not "real". What I'm telling you is that there are still some important details about the way it works that we don't understand.

I really don't understand this anti-SHBG stuff, I discovered this stuff and made most of these hormonal links before I even joined HairLossTalk.com or knew of misterE. We had differing views on what SHBG actually DOES (mine is the commonly accepted scientific view, the one stated on Wikipedia, in articles, papers, pretty much everything that Google search will throw up, etc), but both agreed that lifting it is very important as part of an overall regimen. As part of a holistic regimen aimed at tackling hair loss root causes particularly in younger guys with high T, it is damn near essential

And I'm suggesting to you that as long as questions like the one I posed earlier in this thread remain unanswered, it's far too premature to make the claim that raising SHBG is "damn near essential".

 

[Hoppi]

And I'm suggesting to you that as long as questions like the one I posed earlier in this thread remain unanswered, it's far too premature to make the claim that raising SHBG is "damn near essential".

Bryan, it's entire purpose according to modern medical literature is to mop up and regulate sex hormones.

It seems pretty well documented to me, why do you think it's such a mystery?

And are you really talking about that question about the brain increasing androgens to match mopped up free T? The whole point though is that that testosterone is in EXCESS of what should be in the body, hence one of the major reasons you can trigger hair loss. There is a reason why the first thing a nurse said to me when I mentioned I was losing hair is "hmm maybe you should get your testosterone levels checked..."

It's because SHBG should be at a certain concentration, and when you start lowering it or otherwise lifting unnecessary testosterone above a certain level, it can create problems. Your body simply does not need THIS much testosterone free in the blood.

I would really like to see evidence that says that when SHBG is increased to healthy levels (preferably not by injection but while actually being produced by the liver), the brain increases testosterone production, because that really makes no sense to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldness_t ... _lifestyle

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/28604/2/Washi ... Thesis.pdf (the paper I referred to - ah it's a PhD thesis! Well good enough! I'll find more later )

My thoughts on SHBG are also not just expressed by me alone, they are supported by pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to that has researched it at all.