Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[yourworld001]

No and no. I'm hoping to be one of the people that dont get gyno until very late. It also has to do with your genetics. If the women in your familly are large breasted than you are much more likely to have pronounced gyno. fortunately in my family the women are all flat chested so I have that working in my favour. Ive read accounts of male to female trans people online who complain that despite years of hormone replecement therapy they still have no breast growth. So I'm hoping that will be the case for me. also keeping a low body weight will help, if there isnt much fat to distribute than there isn't going to be much change. I also am continuing to lift weights to keep up my muscular apperance. Again there is much variance to what happens to people on HRT. Some have great difficulty losing muscle and have to try extremely low protien diets and doing lots of cardio/no weightlifting to see a change. So again I am hoping I fall into that category.

I know I'm leaving a lot to chance here but it is the only option I have left.

Thanks for the reply Wolfpac

Are you self medicating without going via a doctor? I've read if you develop breast buds from Estrogen they are permanent and NOT reversable, your stuck with women's nipples.

 

[nWo Wolfpac]

Thanks for the reply Wolfpac

Are you self medicating without going via a doctor? I've read if you develop breast buds from Estrogen they are permanent and NOT reversable, your stuck with women's nipples.

I am getting my meds from my family doctor. he told me he thinks this probably wont work but he's cool enough to let me try. I started off getting it from thailand pharmacy but that is too expensive and unreliable. Yeah I know the breast buds arent reversible. Honestly I dont know what I will do if/when I get them. I might freak out and throw away all my meds in the garbage, I might persevere for a while if my hair looks great or I might just take a break.

I think when i start to show signs of gyno I will take a break until it goes away and maybe just being on meds for a few months here and there will be enough to grow back some and save the hair I still have.

 

[Marky]

I am getting my meds from my family doctor. he told me he thinks this probably wont work but he's cool enough to let me try. I started off getting it from thailand pharmacy but that is too expensive and unreliable. Yeah I know the breast buds arent reversible. Honestly I dont know what I will do if/when I get them. I might freak out and throw away all my meds in the garbage, I might persevere for a while if my hair looks great or I might just take a break.

I think when i start to show signs of gyno I will take a break until it goes away and maybe just being on meds for a few months here and there will be enough to grow back some and save the hair I still have.

This was my thinking too, you might want to try a cycling schedule, like 1 month on, 2 weeks off and just stay on the basics during this time like finasteride/dutasteride and minoxidil.

If you stretch this out over 1-2 years it may take longer but eventually get the results you want.

estradiol - estriol, what is the difference between these, and not at the same time I take it?

 

[yourworld001]

I am getting my meds from my family doctor. he told me he thinks this probably wont work but he's cool enough to let me try. I started off getting it from thailand pharmacy but that is too expensive and unreliable. Yeah I know the breast buds arent reversible. Honestly I dont know what I will do if/when I get them. I might freak out and throw away all my meds in the garbage, I might persevere for a while if my hair looks great or I might just take a break.

I think when i start to show signs of gyno I will take a break until it goes away and maybe just being on meds for a few months here and there will be enough to grow back some and save the hair I still have.

Which country are you from Wolfpac? Does your Doctor know your trying this trans regime just for hair loss? To get on a trans regime in some countries requires a pysc exam and tons of appointments with gender reassignment people, your looking at at least 6months to even get the meds.

 

[yourworld001]

Has anyone seen this transgender regime thread here:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/Forums/textthread.cfm?catid=10&threadid=103197&filtmsgid=1042031

The person was on
Spironolactone 200mg
Finasteride 5mg
Estradiol 8mg

This is their original thread deliberating whether to go on a transgender regime or not:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/Forums/...=103197&STARTPAGE=7&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

 

[nWo Wolfpac]

This was my thinking too, you might want to try a cycling schedule, like 1 month on, 2 weeks off and just stay on the basics during this time like finasteride/dutasteride and minoxidil.

If you stretch this out over 1-2 years it may take longer but eventually get the results you want.

estradiol - estriol, what is the difference between these, and not at the same time I take it?

Your cycling idea seems like a smart approach to take. I think I will use that in the future when I know what I can handle. Thanks for the strategy.

Estradiol and estriol are both estrogens but estradiol is much more powerful. Estradiol is the dominant estrogen but women produce far more estriol when pregnant. Estradiol alone is enough to lower testosterone but estriol alone will not be enough, it often can cause a boost in testosterone in men and needs to be taken with a testosterone blocker. The only reason I was on estriol at the beginning was because it is something you can get over the counter. Some people think high doses of estriol can match low doses of estradiol but I didn't stay on it long enough to prove the theory.

Now what makes estriol particularly enticing for our purposes is that breast tissue has verry little estriol receptors meaning that you will be much less likely to have gyno symptoms from it. Also when women are pregnant their boddies are surging with estriol and have even thicker stronger hair than usual. So why did i switch to estradiol? Simply because estradiol is all ready proven to grow hair in men and estriol is much less documented. I wanted to be more sure of results and not just shooting in the dark. However I will probably try it again in the future to see if it can keep the good results for my hair while improving the gyno. I should mention that I learned most of this from Bridgeburn.

Which country are you from Wolfpac? Does your Doctor know your trying this trans regime just for hair loss? To get on a trans regime in some countries requires a pysc exam and tons of appointments with gender reassignment people, your looking at at least 6months to even get the meds.

I live in canada. Yes he knows, I explained to him why and he gave me a prescription that very day. Yes it is probably unusual It all depends on what daoctor you visit. Mine is my family doctor and we have built a level of trust and respect over 15 years so thats why it was somewhat easy for me.

 

[bridgeburn]

I'm currently considering jumping on dutasteride for increased chance of regrowth, the sexual sides don't particularly bother me although I am concerned about brainfog and general effects on the brain. Did you have any issues with this?

no issues. I've taken dutasteride the entire time in this thread.

but long term, who knows.

Another reason I'm considering dutasteride over finasteride is for decreased body hair growth, I have a lot of body hair for my age and I'd like to decrease it's growth as much as possible. Did you notice much difference in body hair growth?

yes, but I'm on much harder stuff than what dutasteride alone would do, a bit less leg hair, but it continues to shed.
all of my chest hair miniaturized, basically it falls out and then comes back a little thinner then it keeps coming back for awhile and looks a bit hairy again and then sheds again every few months.

to put it in perspective:
this is an old picture of me, it shows how hairy I was;


now here is upper chest


belly is a bit more hair than upper but still much less and i think some fat distribution around hips is apparent.

Trying out dutasteride then switching to finasteride likely won't be an option for me so it's one or the other, would you say the effects of dutasteride are that much more adverse than finasteride?

yeah dutasteride is significantly stronger. I'd recommend it more cause f*** dht.

How long did it take you to see results where you were happy with the cosmetic benefit?

Im still not satisfied, I want More!

 

[bridgeburn]

To me his skin appears to be paler. Bridge is this from lack of sun this summer or do you think the regimen has something to do with it?

I've heard these regimens can make it plaer or more translucent. but Idk cause I also don't get much sun at all these days, I wear sunscreen everyday I go outside even if cloudy.

So here is my update after starting cypro 25mg and estradiol 1.5mg for 2 weeks plus the month and a half of spironolactone 200mg and estriol. Well I have to admit my hair does seem to look better, it has more volume and seems healthier but when I examine closer I still havent regrown a single god damned hair. I think im starting to notice my skin looking softer. reduced libido no morning wood or random erections. Dick seems to be working fine still. I have been getting tired throughout the day and havent been sleeping as well as before. I was feeling exausted 3 days ago so I lowered my cypro dose from 25mg to 12.5mg. I've read that for most people 12.5 should be enough. Alot of people get cypro sides at 50 or 25mg but dont at 12 or even 10 or 8. Its a powerful drug and it seems to me that alot of the side effects come from not testoterone reduction but just having too much of the drug in your system because there are people out there who only take 8mg a day without sides and have Very Very low levels of testosterone. I feel better since I've lowered my dose. More energy like my oldself. No mental effects yet. I dont feel any calmer but Im usually a pretty laid back guy anyways though I am quick to anger but I like that. It helps me stand up for my self and I like having an edge and being agressive.

So maybe I'm growing tiny microscopic hairs right now but I just havent noticed. I havent examined my scalp with a magnifying glass or anything so I remain cautiously optimistic. I will probably update again in a couple of weeks.

give it a few months, if you use minoxidil results will come faster.

also are you taking b12 with the cypro? if not it could explain the fatigue

 

[nWo Wolfpac]

give it a few months, if you use minoxidil results will come faster.

also are you taking b12 with the cypro? if not it could explain the fatigue

No im not, sh*t I forgot about that! I read that weeks ago and then completely forgot. Thanks for reminding me I will pick up some B12 tomorrow.

 

[bridgeburn]

No and no. I'm hoping to be one of the people that dont get gyno until very late. It also has to do with your genetics. If the women in your familly are large breasted than you are much more likely to have pronounced gyno. fortunately in my family the women are all flat chested so I have that working in my favour. Ive read accounts of male to female trans people online who complain that despite years of hormone replecement therapy they still have no breast growth. So I'm hoping that will be the case for me. also keeping a low body weight will help, if there isnt much fat to distribute than there isn't going to be much change. I also am continuing to lift weights to keep up my muscular apperance. Again there is much variance to what happens to people on HRT. Some have great difficulty losing muscle and have to try extremely low protien diets and doing lots of cardio/no weightlifting to see a change. So again I am hoping I fall into that category.

I know I'm leaving a lot to chance here but it is the only option I have left.

Even if you don't get breast growth it is extremely likely nipples will get puffy , that started for me a few weeks in.
also building muscle in the chest will make it look worse.
but could try using exercises inverted in such a way to build more in arms than chest.

Yeah I know the breast buds arent reversible. Honestly I dont know what I will do if/when I get them.

maybe crush raloxifene tablets into Dmso and rub on tits

This was my thinking too, you might want to try a cycling schedule, like 1 month on, 2 weeks off and just stay on the basics during this time like finasteride/dutasteride and minoxidil.

yes definitely stay on the basics! at least a 5ar inhibitor at all times

Has anyone seen this transgender regime thread here:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/Forums/textthread.cfm?catid=10&threadid=103197&filtmsgid=1042031

The person was on
Spironolactone 200mg
Finasteride 5mg
Estradiol 8mg

This is their original thread deliberating whether to go on a transgender regime or not:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/Forums/...=103197&STARTPAGE=7&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

holy sh*t, i didn't realize swisstemples ever used topical estriol

Also when women are pregnant their boddies are surging with estriol and have even thicker stronger hair than usual.

estradiol also increases in pregnancy, but yeah estriol is way more propertionally high than usual

 

[bridgeburn]

left temple:

different pic of left side while a bit wet: (levels of shades can be seen here)


my bad temple (right):

 

[Marky]

no issues. I've taken dutasteride the entire time in this thread.

but long term, who knows.


yes, but I'm on much harder stuff than what dutasteride alone would do, a bit less leg hair, but it continues to shed.
all of my chest hair miniaturized, basically it falls out and then comes back a little thinner then it keeps coming back for awhile and looks a bit hairy again and then sheds again every few months.

to put it in perspective:
this is an old picture of me, it shows how hairy I was;
View attachment 97784

now here is upper chest
View attachment 97785

belly is a bit more hair than upper but still much less and i think some fat distribution around hips is apparent.
View attachment 97786


yeah dutasteride is significantly stronger. I'd recommend it more cause f*** dht.

Im still not satisfied, I want More!

Are you still able to grow your beard back to that extent? And what is DMSO?

 

[nWo Wolfpac]

Allright so I have some good sides and bad sides. The bad is I can no longer get sexually aroused from my thoughts. Not even a little. Last night and this morning I tried for 5 minutes and not even even a semi. It used to be all I had to do was think of a partially undressed girl doing something sexy and within 10 to 15 seconds I would have an erection every time. Doing it manually still works. Bridgeburn do you have this issue as well?

The good is that my face hasent looked this good in years. I usually have some red scaly inflamed skin on my face from rosacea and that is almost completely gone right now. My face is actually white. If this whole thing doesent work out for me in the end at least I can say it made life a little more intersting for awhile.

Even if you don't get breast growth it is extremely likely nipples will get puffy , that started for me a few weeks in.
also building muscle in the chest will make it look worse.
but could try using exercises inverted in such a way to build more in arms than chest.

Thats interesting about chest muscles making it worse. I guess having pecs would make it pop out more. I think having round built up shoulders and traps will do the most to make the gyno seem less substantial. I'm going to start emphasizing those muscle groups. I'm thinking pull ups and shoulder shrugs for traps and overhead presses and lateral raises for shoulders. My traps are pretty good but my shoulders are a weak point so I should go get started. Your temples are looking great in those photos by the way. Thats what I'm gunning for.

 

[KSA]

Allright so I have some good sides and bad sides. The bad is I can no longer get sexually aroused from my thoughts. Not even a little. Last night and this morning I tried for 5 minutes and not even even a semi. It used to be all I had to do was think of a partially undressed girl doing something sexy and within 10 to 15 seconds I would have an erection every time. Doing it manually still works. Bridgeburn do you have this issue as well?

The good is that my face hasent looked this good in years. I usually have some red scaly inflamed skin on my face from rosacea and that is almost completely gone right now. My face is actually white. If this whole thing doesent work out for me in the end at least I can say it made life a little more intersting for awhile.




Thats interesting about chest muscles making it worse. I guess having pecs would make it pop out more. I think having round built up shoulders and traps will do the most to make the gyno seem less substantial. I'm going to start emphasizing those muscle groups. I'm thinking pull ups and shoulder shrugs for traps and overhead presses and lateral raises for shoulders. My traps are pretty good but my shoulders are a weak point so I should go get started. Your temples are looking great in those photos by the way. Thats what I'm gunning for.

thanks for sharing, Wolfpac.
Have you had an blood tests on your current regimen? I'm very curious to see how Cypro impacts that - I've heard mixed reviews. While spironolactone lowered my libido and dried up my skin (but not too significantly - it peaks and troughs) my serum levels are more or less the same. Except DHT which is undetectable in blood but perhaps only in tissue. Idk. However, I took Flutamide 500mg for 6/7 years and my skin was always perfect and hair thicker than my natural state I'm certain. My blood levels were through the roof and I always had a boner and that was a real nightmare. Everyone thought I was wearing a wig. now on spironolactone I'm still waiting for consistent results. I'm curious about adding in a small cypro dose as you have, but as it is a blocker (all of these drugs) there is the possibility that they may unwittingly raise testosterone while inefficiently protecting some receptors.

 

[Heinrich Harrer]

I am getting my meds from my family doctor. he told me he thinks this probably wont work but he's cool enough to let me try. I started off getting it from thailand pharmacy but that is too expensive and unreliable. Yeah I know the breast buds arent reversible. Honestly I dont know what I will do if/when I get them. I might freak out and throw away all my meds in the garbage, I might persevere for a while if my hair looks great or I might just take a break.

I think when i start to show signs of gyno I will take a break until it goes away and maybe just being on meds for a few months here and there will be enough to grow back some and save the hair I still have.

It won’t go away past a certain point. It’s caused by the abrupt change in androgens and the absence of dht in your tits tissue. Anyone who’s on antiandrogens will develop gyno sooner or later, it’s just how it is. If they tell you “no”, they lie.

 

[KSA]

It won’t go away past a certain point. It’s caused by the abrupt change in androgens and the absence of dht in your tits tissue. Anyone who’s on antiandrogens will develop gyno sooner or later, it’s just how it is. If they tell you “no”, they lie.

they go away when you discontinue drugs. Flutamide gave me enormous and inappropriate nippies. Now on spironolactone i just have sensitivity but baaarely any gyno

 

[Marky]

It won’t go away past a certain point. It’s caused by the abrupt change in androgens and the absence of dht in your tits tissue. Anyone who’s on antiandrogens will develop gyno sooner or later, it’s just how it is. If they tell you “no”, they lie.

That's why I think cycling and starting small is the key - avoid abruptness then avoid gyno?

 

[Marky]

thanks for sharing, Wolfpac.
Have you had an blood tests on your current regimen? I'm very curious to see how Cypro impacts that - I've heard mixed reviews. While spironolactone lowered my libido and dried up my skin (but not too significantly - it peaks and troughs) my serum levels are more or less the same. Except DHT which is undetectable in blood but perhaps only in tissue. Idk. However, I took Flutamide 500mg for 6/7 years and my skin was always perfect and hair thicker than my natural state I'm certain. My blood levels were through the roof and I always had a boner and that was a real nightmare. Everyone thought I was wearing a wig. now on spironolactone I'm still waiting for consistent results. I'm curious about adding in a small cypro dose as you have, but as it is a blocker (all of these drugs) there is the possibility that they may unwittingly raise testosterone while inefficiently protecting some receptors.

Any pictures to share?

 

[BetaBoy]

It won’t go away past a certain point. It’s caused by the abrupt change in androgens and the absence of dht in your tits tissue. Anyone who’s on antiandrogens will develop gyno sooner or later, it’s just how it is. If they tell you “no”, they lie.

I'm not sure there is much evidence DHT plays a role in controlling breast development/growth, after all it's not especially prevalent in those with 5-ARD.

 

[bridgeburn]

Are you still able to grow your beard back to that extent? And what is DMSO?

my beard hasn't been too affected. but there is some unevenness