The point is, some people on this forum think that if you are willing to accept the risks associated with finasteride in exchange for keeping your hair then you must have mental problems. I don't agree with that assessment just like I don't agree with yours. It's up to each individual to determine what their hair is worth to them. Everyone has to weigh the risk-reward ratio for themselves. It's not our place to tell them what is acceptable in their case.
Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.
- Thread starter bridgeburn
- Start date
The point is, some people on this forum think that if you are willing to accept the risks associated with finasteride in exchange for keeping your hair then you must have mental problems. I don't agree with that assessment just like I don't agree with yours. It's up to each individual to determine what their hair is worth to them. Everyone has to weigh the risk-reward ratio for themselves. It's not our place to tell them what is acceptable in their case.
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How long do trannies usually live on drugs like cpa, bica, estro etc? Is antydhtor still alive? Lol
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They can't be on cpa for long time...
The best way is to go under orchiectomy after one year of hrt and then there's no need to cpa, only transdermal estradiol will be enough...
Cpa is very harsh, I'm using 12.5mg/d for hair loss, but i get headaches even at such a low dose
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We "transgender" folks can live forever on estrogen.
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The first thing that strikes me is that @bridgeburn is the only one, or one of just a few on here with a protocol similar to that of a transgender female. I am currently on Climara 100's X 2 weekly, Estrogel as needed on the face, scalp, breasts and genital tissue (at least an 80 gram tube a week), Dutasteride 0.5 daily, progesterone 100 mg nightly, provera 10 mg daily. I was on 200 mg spironolactone daily in the past but I couldn't tolerate the weakness and fatigue side-effects.
We can quibble over whether my regime is more extreme than @bridgeburn. Climara's provide steady-state 24 hour estrogen to the body so there are few fluctuations and no half-life and I can meet my E and T targets using E2 only with the two Climara's if I wish to. Because I have had the full range of effects and have photographed my changes relentlessly, I intend to upload pertinent files upon request or if I think they are pertinent. I have a transition blog so I am used to being out in the open. I also have a transition page devoted solely to my hair.
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Not me. Plus the blood clots thing mostly, if not entirely, is with synthetic or non-human (CEE's), not parenteral dosing like Estrogel or Climara or injections.
I clearly am taking dutasteride at .5mg. The rest is true in terms of sheds being possible but HRT sheds are probably benevolent but I blame spironolactone for mine last year.
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Thanks for the welcome. I have been reading here for several months but this is one long, long thread but I have read several of your posts and I found them worthwhile. I hope to enrich my own knowledge because MtFs don't give a damn about hair since all the younger ones have perfect female hair since they never went bald. All MtFs squawk about poor breast growth just like some folks on here lament not having the hair that we feel entitled to<raises hand>
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What Works to Restore Hairloss for Cis-Males? Not Much
It has been interesting to me to experience how different types of estrogen can have different temporal effects in terms of how soon they begin and how they can affect different areas unevenly.
I started off wanting just to get my feet wet. I had monitored the undergraduate microfiche and then as the internet became ubiquitous, the various online hair sites as that was my main concern, if not obsession, when I was younger and it fascinated me how basically forever there had been no baldness cures for males ever except for estrogen and testosterone blockers, or other such types of medications or treatments altering hormonal levels of estrogen and testosterone.
Castration plus estrogen is something that historically has been noted in medical literature to regrow scalp hair from completely bald areas but not many people are willing to go that far who are not transgender females. So as will be mentioned later, bottom surgery might significantly increase hair regrowth for transgender females because many treating practitioners are wary of prescribing enough estrogen for this hair regrowth effect to take effect without adding much stronger anti-androgens than those prescribed for cis-males.
Thus either an anti-androgen like flutamide or spironlactone, or castration may be needed to get testosterone down to the low levels needed for significant hair regrowth.
But what follows is more geared to cis-males or transgender females not receiving HRT.
By the way, any "transgender" females seeking to maintain full erectile capability, only the parts that follow regarding cis-males apply. I do know something about the subject but I consider it a non-binary topic.
Minoxidil was the first non-hormonal baldness treatment to come out that had actually been double-blind tested. I would say that I first became aware of it in 1986 after at least three years of thinning on top already but back then you needed a prescription so it wasn't easy to get. It was also pretty expensive; it still is. For me and probably others, there was the verification factor. Did it really work?
Eh. I still generally use it but at best it probably helps prevent hair loss. It might "regrow" some hair that just recently went out of cycle. I would often look in the mirror hoping to see little hairs growing but I never did. It was supposed to work slightly better in the crown but once again, eh. When I get lazy or don't want to spend, minoxidil is the hair treatment that I am willing to forego. I have seen very little to indicate that minoxidil works very well for anybody, male or female. You don't tend to see pictures that are impressive without it being combined with another treatment.
What did perhaps, work, however were off-label concoctions of minoxidil sold online, if you can still find them. The FDA tends to shut them down. These concoctions would have between 12 percent and 15 percent minoxidil but usually mixed with potentiators. Off the top of my head, no pun intended, the two main additional growth factors were azelaic acid and then spironolactone. They tended to smell bad.
Now, conceptually that seemed like something that might work and I think that it did work for many, especially younger males and females. Topical spironolactone does not appear to go systemic the way that estrogen does, and oral spironolactone does. This meant that one could rub these formulas on his or her scalp and it wouldn't promote breast growth. Interesting, I thought.
So, yeah I tried it. It wasn't that expensive. I was maybe 35 and I used it for a couple of years and I still just didn't see a lot of difference. I was only thinning in front and s little on top just to provide a backdrop. Nothing works for males who are completely bald except for female hormones and anti-androgens, but those thinning in the crown often did see improvements from these non-hormonal treatments combining minoxidil with different factors, and there were credible photos of thickening hair, if not regrowth.
Then came Proscar or Propecia. One was prescribed for hair and the other for prostate issues but they were exactly the same pharmaceutical. Once these went out of patent protection, they became referred to as finasteride and are featured on Keeps.com, which advertises them a lot during sports.
Now this one seemed to help a lot of people but once again, it mostly stopped hair loss and it stopped it cold for many younger people. Finasteride is a DHT suppressor and its specs indicated how it worked. The medication "mopped" up the enzymes that are needed for the body to produce DHT. It can be prescribed by doctors for baldness and prostate issues. It is a type of anti-androgen like spironolactone but it tends not to have any feminizing effects since the DHT not converted remains as testosterone, and is not blocked from the androgen receptors as happens with flutamide and spironolactone.
Then came dutasteride or Avodart. Dutasteride was very similar to finasteride but it can only be prescribed by doctors for prostate issues and not for hair loss currently. I would go on to learn that baldness and prostate issues are highly linked because DHT is the culprit for problems in both areas.
Many doctors prescribe dutasteride off-label for hair loss. It has far better specs than finasteride in terms of the enzymes that it mops up as it mops up three different types of 5a-reductase and higher percentages of reductase as well, as both both finasteride and dutasteride are 5a-reductase inhibitors. Although dutasteride seems likely to be more effective than finasteride, some HRT practitioners still seem to prescribe solely finasteride and I don't believe that there are many studies with dutasteride.
Sometimes such prescription preferences have to do with what insurance is willing to pay for, if for example, a certain medication is still under patent protection and therefore more costly but many HRT practitioners don't seem to keep themselves exactly up to date with the latest research and studies as to what medications are most efficacious, and they might just keep prescribing what they have prescribed in the past.
There is also a shampoo that might be somewhat effective for males, known as Ketoconazole or Nizoral. Over the counter Nizoral has one percent, and prescription Ketoconazole two percent of the active ingredient, but you need a prescription for the latter. Nizoral is a type of anti-fungal medication which is somewhat effective against those DHT-related afflictions above the neck but also against things fomented by fungi like ringworm. The shampoo is very red and staining to clothing, and quite viscous, and it doesn't foam much, which is good, according to what I know about shampoos, but don't spill it on your light-colored clothing.
Again pops up our "friend" DHT which I have mentioned several times previously as a villain of people born as cis-males who suffer with imbalances of DHT and testosterone.
DHT seems to provide an environment where the skin can become excessively oily or sebaceous,
Because the yeasts that are present in all of us, consume the sebum, it seems to create an environment where malassezia furfur, a type of fungus or yeast thrives. As the colony of said yeasts expands, it can cause a multitude of skin afflictions. It has been associated with numerous dermatological conditions, including acne, dermatitis, dandruff, and apparently hair loss, and can create scaly sores underneath the hair on the scalp.
It can be very difficult to treat such sores so many of the afflicted have to just wait for a particular infection to run its course on its own. Sebaceous glands are particularly prominent in areas covered by hair, where they are connected to beard or scalp hair.
I don't claim to know the exact mechanisms but this seems likely to account for beard hair possibly seeming to continue to cause these oppressive facial and scalp issues in male to female transgender individuals such as it seems to have done with me.
It was only after I started the beard removal process that I was able to tame the dermatitis accompanying the growth of my beard hair. It was only after I began using topical estrogen on my scalp, and then began oral estrogen that the painful sores went away, seemingly permanently.
Remember that estrogen even with spironolactone seems unable to stop or really even significantly lessen beard growth or beard thickness so beard removal might be the only treatment that would have stopped my break-outs. Regardless, it worked seemingly at least concomitantly for me.
My thought is that the beard itself is pulling up whatever DHT remains in the body up to the skin's surface causing an eruption of dermatitis even after the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors have prevented the production of DHT in other tissues.
Once the beard follicles are gone or completely miniaturized, the dermatitis might go away as well. At least, this is what seems to have happened in my case. My skin cleared up immediately, which is also likely due to increasing my titrated doses of oral estrogen as well.
So ketoconazole, then seems to provide a scalp environment less susceptible for the hostile yeasts, which yeasts we all have and need for nice shiny hair but issues arrive when too much sebum is made because the yeasts "love" sebum. That's what they "eat".
We can see then that an imbalance of DHT is likely to promote an excess of sebum. The excess of sebum causes the malassezia furfur to over-populate, leading to inflammation and dermatitis and possible hair loss. Androgens like DHT stimulate the secretion of sebum while estrogens help decrease sebum production.
That being said, I have used keto for several years and I haven't noticed that it did a lot for either my face or hair. But the shampoo is not expensive and it may work for some or act in a synergistic way, so I use it. Leave it on for several minutes when possible. I have a monthly prescription for it. You can find it usually for sale near the dandruff shampoos for the one percent type.
It may help further to gain some understanding of the process by which steroid hormones are converted back and forth into different metabolites.
I am no chemist or biologist but I will try a greatly simplified explication. Reductases are enzymes that can change sex hormones into different versions by changing the molecular structure.
It has been interesting to me to experience how different types of estrogen can have different temporal effects in terms of how soon they begin and how they can affect different areas unevenly.
I started off wanting just to get my feet wet. I had monitored the undergraduate microfiche and then as the internet became ubiquitous, the various online hair sites as that was my main concern, if not obsession, when I was younger and it fascinated me how basically forever there had been no baldness cures for males ever except for estrogen and testosterone blockers, or other such types of medications or treatments altering hormonal levels of estrogen and testosterone.
Castration plus estrogen is something that historically has been noted in medical literature to regrow scalp hair from completely bald areas but not many people are willing to go that far who are not transgender females. So as will be mentioned later, bottom surgery might significantly increase hair regrowth for transgender females because many treating practitioners are wary of prescribing enough estrogen for this hair regrowth effect to take effect without adding much stronger anti-androgens than those prescribed for cis-males.
Thus either an anti-androgen like flutamide or spironlactone, or castration may be needed to get testosterone down to the low levels needed for significant hair regrowth.
But what follows is more geared to cis-males or transgender females not receiving HRT.
By the way, any "transgender" females seeking to maintain full erectile capability, only the parts that follow regarding cis-males apply. I do know something about the subject but I consider it a non-binary topic.
Minoxidil was the first non-hormonal baldness treatment to come out that had actually been double-blind tested. I would say that I first became aware of it in 1986 after at least three years of thinning on top already but back then you needed a prescription so it wasn't easy to get. It was also pretty expensive; it still is. For me and probably others, there was the verification factor. Did it really work?
Eh. I still generally use it but at best it probably helps prevent hair loss. It might "regrow" some hair that just recently went out of cycle. I would often look in the mirror hoping to see little hairs growing but I never did. It was supposed to work slightly better in the crown but once again, eh. When I get lazy or don't want to spend, minoxidil is the hair treatment that I am willing to forego. I have seen very little to indicate that minoxidil works very well for anybody, male or female. You don't tend to see pictures that are impressive without it being combined with another treatment.
What did perhaps, work, however were off-label concoctions of minoxidil sold online, if you can still find them. The FDA tends to shut them down. These concoctions would have between 12 percent and 15 percent minoxidil but usually mixed with potentiators. Off the top of my head, no pun intended, the two main additional growth factors were azelaic acid and then spironolactone. They tended to smell bad.
Now, conceptually that seemed like something that might work and I think that it did work for many, especially younger males and females. Topical spironolactone does not appear to go systemic the way that estrogen does, and oral spironolactone does. This meant that one could rub these formulas on his or her scalp and it wouldn't promote breast growth. Interesting, I thought.
So, yeah I tried it. It wasn't that expensive. I was maybe 35 and I used it for a couple of years and I still just didn't see a lot of difference. I was only thinning in front and s little on top just to provide a backdrop. Nothing works for males who are completely bald except for female hormones and anti-androgens, but those thinning in the crown often did see improvements from these non-hormonal treatments combining minoxidil with different factors, and there were credible photos of thickening hair, if not regrowth.
Then came Proscar or Propecia. One was prescribed for hair and the other for prostate issues but they were exactly the same pharmaceutical. Once these went out of patent protection, they became referred to as finasteride and are featured on Keeps.com, which advertises them a lot during sports.
Now this one seemed to help a lot of people but once again, it mostly stopped hair loss and it stopped it cold for many younger people. Finasteride is a DHT suppressor and its specs indicated how it worked. The medication "mopped" up the enzymes that are needed for the body to produce DHT. It can be prescribed by doctors for baldness and prostate issues. It is a type of anti-androgen like spironolactone but it tends not to have any feminizing effects since the DHT not converted remains as testosterone, and is not blocked from the androgen receptors as happens with flutamide and spironolactone.
Then came dutasteride or Avodart. Dutasteride was very similar to finasteride but it can only be prescribed by doctors for prostate issues and not for hair loss currently. I would go on to learn that baldness and prostate issues are highly linked because DHT is the culprit for problems in both areas.
Many doctors prescribe dutasteride off-label for hair loss. It has far better specs than finasteride in terms of the enzymes that it mops up as it mops up three different types of 5a-reductase and higher percentages of reductase as well, as both both finasteride and dutasteride are 5a-reductase inhibitors. Although dutasteride seems likely to be more effective than finasteride, some HRT practitioners still seem to prescribe solely finasteride and I don't believe that there are many studies with dutasteride.
Sometimes such prescription preferences have to do with what insurance is willing to pay for, if for example, a certain medication is still under patent protection and therefore more costly but many HRT practitioners don't seem to keep themselves exactly up to date with the latest research and studies as to what medications are most efficacious, and they might just keep prescribing what they have prescribed in the past.
There is also a shampoo that might be somewhat effective for males, known as Ketoconazole or Nizoral. Over the counter Nizoral has one percent, and prescription Ketoconazole two percent of the active ingredient, but you need a prescription for the latter. Nizoral is a type of anti-fungal medication which is somewhat effective against those DHT-related afflictions above the neck but also against things fomented by fungi like ringworm. The shampoo is very red and staining to clothing, and quite viscous, and it doesn't foam much, which is good, according to what I know about shampoos, but don't spill it on your light-colored clothing.
Again pops up our "friend" DHT which I have mentioned several times previously as a villain of people born as cis-males who suffer with imbalances of DHT and testosterone.
DHT seems to provide an environment where the skin can become excessively oily or sebaceous,
Because the yeasts that are present in all of us, consume the sebum, it seems to create an environment where malassezia furfur, a type of fungus or yeast thrives. As the colony of said yeasts expands, it can cause a multitude of skin afflictions. It has been associated with numerous dermatological conditions, including acne, dermatitis, dandruff, and apparently hair loss, and can create scaly sores underneath the hair on the scalp.
It can be very difficult to treat such sores so many of the afflicted have to just wait for a particular infection to run its course on its own. Sebaceous glands are particularly prominent in areas covered by hair, where they are connected to beard or scalp hair.
I don't claim to know the exact mechanisms but this seems likely to account for beard hair possibly seeming to continue to cause these oppressive facial and scalp issues in male to female transgender individuals such as it seems to have done with me.
It was only after I started the beard removal process that I was able to tame the dermatitis accompanying the growth of my beard hair. It was only after I began using topical estrogen on my scalp, and then began oral estrogen that the painful sores went away, seemingly permanently.
Remember that estrogen even with spironolactone seems unable to stop or really even significantly lessen beard growth or beard thickness so beard removal might be the only treatment that would have stopped my break-outs. Regardless, it worked seemingly at least concomitantly for me.
My thought is that the beard itself is pulling up whatever DHT remains in the body up to the skin's surface causing an eruption of dermatitis even after the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors have prevented the production of DHT in other tissues.
Once the beard follicles are gone or completely miniaturized, the dermatitis might go away as well. At least, this is what seems to have happened in my case. My skin cleared up immediately, which is also likely due to increasing my titrated doses of oral estrogen as well.
So ketoconazole, then seems to provide a scalp environment less susceptible for the hostile yeasts, which yeasts we all have and need for nice shiny hair but issues arrive when too much sebum is made because the yeasts "love" sebum. That's what they "eat".
We can see then that an imbalance of DHT is likely to promote an excess of sebum. The excess of sebum causes the malassezia furfur to over-populate, leading to inflammation and dermatitis and possible hair loss. Androgens like DHT stimulate the secretion of sebum while estrogens help decrease sebum production.
That being said, I have used keto for several years and I haven't noticed that it did a lot for either my face or hair. But the shampoo is not expensive and it may work for some or act in a synergistic way, so I use it. Leave it on for several minutes when possible. I have a monthly prescription for it. You can find it usually for sale near the dandruff shampoos for the one percent type.
It may help further to gain some understanding of the process by which steroid hormones are converted back and forth into different metabolites.
I am no chemist or biologist but I will try a greatly simplified explication. Reductases are enzymes that can change sex hormones into different versions by changing the molecular structure.
- Reaction score
- 2,028
Part II:
With estrogens, you have estradiol, estrone and estriol. With androgens, you have testosterone, 5-DHT, androsterone and androstenedione, which was used by Mark McGwire and other steroid users in baseball, among others accused of using steroids.
Progesterone and DHEA are other types of steroids produced by and needed both sexes. They are all chemically similar to cholesterol. These steroidal hormones can often be converted by the body from one into another.
Aromatases are enzymes that can change testosterone into estrogen via a process known as aromatization. Estrogen and testosterone have similar chemical structures but estrogen can aromatize testosterone, i.e., change it to estrogen, while testosterone cannot turn estrogen into androgens.
So some of the various enzymes that end in "ase" can create both estrogens and androgens. Without reductase, DHT cannot be formed from testosterone. Testosterone, however, as mentioned, can be converted to estrogen via aromatization.
This mostly concerns people being prescribed testosterone, such as female to male transgender individuals or athletes with injuries prescribed androgen for treatment of injuries because just loading up on more and more T might have a limit as to achieving the primary goal of using the medication to increase circulating androgens. Also for athletes, DHT is likely to improve performance in terms of promoting muscle growth so some males may not want to decrease the levels of DHT created in the body even while knowing that it can cause baldness and acne and aggression, and other negative effects such as paraphilias which are all but unknown in cis-females.
This debilitating physical strength effect from 5-alpha reductase inhibitors is not so significant for male to female individuals except that it shows why some anti-androgens like dutasteride and finasteride have fairly weak feminization or effectively no feminization effects while others like spironolactone and flutamide, and compounds similar to flutamide, like bicalutamide can have far more significant effects on muscle, and can clearly decrease physical strength when taken by cis-males.
It helps to know at least a little about these different medications because transgender individuals might be able to have their treating practitioner switch from the weaker finasteride to flutamide if hair regrowth is a key concern. In my experiences, HRT physicians or their assistants might not titrate dosages or add things like flutamide or progesterone without being prompted and it helps to have a reason when you ask.
Some studies do, for instance, find positive effects from progesterone and its synthetics like depo-provera on both hair and breast and nipple size although this is vigorously debated.
Honestly, in my opinion, and according to the medical literature, none of the above non-hormonal treatments for cis-males, which I use here to include transgender females as well, and even those cocktails including the weak androgen inhibitors dutasteride and/or finasteride, are likely to result in significant hair regrowth, particularly for people over 30, without adding spironolactone or flutamide as part of the cocktail,
However, used in conjuction with estrogens or stronger anti-androgens, there could be a synergistic effect among 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, minoxidil or Nizoral. and I would encourage all cis-males, transgender or otherwise, unable to use or obtain estrogen or androgen-blockers to use all of these if possible.
From my reading of much of the most-recent literature, I am skeptical that any male to female transgender individual needs more than just estrogen plus flutamide or spironolactone for significant hair regrowth.
In fact there are current studies indicating that just estrogen alone is enough to regrow hair for transgender females provided high enough levels are prescribed. Many practitioners won't go this high up in terms of prescribing estrogen because they fear blood clotting becoming an issue, which is a legitimate concern but which may be well worth the risk for balding transgender females suffering from significant dysphoria.
This accounts for why most studies indicate that trans-females need both estrogen and either flutamide and spironolactone for significant hair regrowth. In Europe, they use Androcur, also known as cyproterone acetate exclusively instead of spironolactone.
Cyproterone acetate on its own may be more effective than spironolactone, also known as aldactone, for some but it isn't approved for the treatment of transgender females in the United States. It is available and fairly easy to get from overseas sites serving transgender individuals who don't have access to health insurance or a prescriber, which percentage might be half of our community. I will discuss this topic more fully in another post. I think that both cyproterone and spironolactone are roughly equal in their hair growth abilities.
For cis-males, regardless of future orientation, one needs to use all of the above non-feminizing baldness treatments daily for best resutls, except one only needs either finasteride or dutasteride, preferably the latter but not both.
When to start for cis-males? The very first second that you see a single hair fall be it at 18 or 30 or 50 years of age. All of the above combined with either finasteride or dutasteride seem to be quite effective to maintain a hairline but they won't regrow it fully the way that estrogen in combination with anti-androgens that bind to androgen receptors might.
For cis-females, it is recommended to avoid the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors if of child-bearing age. Doctors may take males off them too when males are attempting to start a family but this seems to be excessive and overkill. If a cis-male goes off them for 7-10 years, there's no getting that hair back after desisting. I did happen to go off them because of my physician's recommendation.
Why is it so difficult to regrow hair, even for people using estrogen? One theory is that balding scalp tissue is a sort of calcified scar which has lost its connection to most blood vessels and hence blood supply. Scarring is a very difficult thing to reverse anywhere on the body. Also, the male head tends to grow larger than the female head, further perhaps hampering blood flow by stretching out the affected tissue.
If someone wants to actually restore hair and is interested in even greater minutia, he or she might go to the site Perfect Hair Forever site, which is full of pertinent information for males and females. But I can summarize its findings pretty easily:
Intact transgender females supplementing with both estrogen, and one of the other among spironolactone or flutamide, or castrated males supplementing with estrogen alone are able to reverse baldness or shall we say have a significant probability of substantial regrowth in completely bald areas.
Castrated males and transsexual females no longer produce any significant amounts of testosterone or 5-DHT so only estrogen supplementation is necessary for them to theoretically regrow hair in balding areas.
We never used to think that massaging the scalp could restore hair from baldness and that it was instead an old husband's tale but it may be because it takes a massive amount of massage, say, 30 minutes per day, every day for a year, and then continuing onward, to break through the calcified tissue.
The author on that site tries to provide the total sum of minutes needed. I have verified that there are studies indicating positive effects on hair growth via sustained, rigorous massage but I am not sure this is really a likely path for most balding people. It requires too much effort, obviously much more than swallowing ten pills daily as do many female transgender individuals but for motivated people, it might improve their hair some.
A process called derma-rolling or micro-needling that he mentions seems to work as well, with several published papers indicative of its effectiveness and as to why this might work.
This treatment can be fairly painful, however and you have to keep at it for many months to a year, but essentially small pricks into the scalp "trick" the body into healing scalp tissue and re-establishing blood flow. It also seems to work well on non-ice pick facial scars and wrinkles but it can involve a bit of a bloody mess. Healing time is minimal since the skin really wasn't damaged deeply enough to cause more than say 12 hours of inflammation.
Finally, there is the estrogen factor. Research seems to indicate that estrogen greatly increases the length of the growth phase of hair and thus female hair might grow for three times as long as male hair before falling out and going into its resting phase. It is possibly for this reason that even the vast majority of men who essentially never lose any hair at all, still can't grow their hair long the way that women do, without achieving the mullet look.
Estrogen's affects on skin alone, in my experience are miraculous in terms of feminization and in terms of what transgender females are likely to view as improvement, meaning paler, less hairy and much softer, and these effects, unlike hair regrowth, begin immediately.
Heels of feet that were completely cross-linked before estrogen, meaning coarse and discolored, where even pumice might be useless but estrogen can immediately become much more supple.
So then, regardless of the efficacy of the medications above for males in maintaining or even subtly regrowing hair, males simply are never going to restore their mid-puberty locks from say ages 13-17 without hormonal manipulation via T-blockers that don't block androgen receptors.
Hair transplants don't improve hair quality generally unless the fringe hair remains very high on the sides and back of the scalp without any hint of the mullet-effect. I have seen this and such males with abundant fringe hair are able to get fantastic results from transplants but their hair is still inferior to that of most females.
I have anecdotal personal knowledge of this limiting quality factor for males regardless of treatment.
Both of my parents are in their 80's and they both have thick hair and maintain every follicle that they were born with, but still my father's hair can't match my mother's. She can still wear it down to her shoulders the way that she could when I was a child.
In the early 1970's when male hairstyles increased in length, my father's hair got curly and unruly and it simply was never going to look good worn long. It lacked the texture and sheen and was a bit mullety.
Most males don't care that much about the length of their hair. They just want the fullest coverage possible but there is nothing that I know of short of hormonal manipulation of the androgen receptors along with estrogen that will give a male long tresses that look and have the manageability of female locks.
Women's hair at its best has a consistency and sheen and smoothness when rubbed between the fingers that virtually no male, not even Jeff Bridges in Against All Odds, can match, as glorious as Mr. Bridge's hair was in that movie in his red Ferrari, hair blowing in the wind.
Most rock stars after 30 are wearing wigs or hair extensions. Mick Jagger had pretty great hair among front men and may have made it to 50 with great hair. George Harrison and his incredible long-growing hair is of note but it is apparent that some members of the Who and Zeppelin are "cheating" just like me and just like so many metal "hair" bands.
Rod Stewart? Pretty obvious, not that there is a thing wrong about anyone wearing wigs or hair extensions but there does seem to be a stigma, especially with respect to toupees which rarely seem to blend in or fit right compared to longer wigs that completely cover down to the neck or or further down.
So why do some men like my father or Ronald Reagan appear to have perfect hairlines into their 90's? In many cases, such men lack the ability to produce 5-alpha reductase at all and therefore have only testosterone and not any DHT at all, circulating in their systems. Dutasteride would be entirely superfluous for those males bearing this genetic trait and male pattern baldness is unknown among them.
One hears a lot about gender dysphoria but in my opinion, dysphoria about hair loss is probably just as brutal for many follicle-challenged males as is the gender dysphoria that many transgender females experience. For me, they are completely related and both started right after puberty at about the age of 19.
Anyone who goes to the male-oriented baldness sites can see this obsession. There is a willingness to try anything, be it onion juice or cod liver oil or inversion therapy or saw palmetto tablets or black cohosh or cayenne pepper or soy products, and on and on.
Many of these gentlemen however are unwilling to try even weak androgen blockers like finasteride and in my opinion, there is just not much hope for bald or balding males to keep their remaining hair without at least using such weak anti-androgens like dutasteride and finasteride sold by Keeps and other such companies.
Most of these packages advertised so frequently include minoxidil and finasteride, along with an online prescription that takes five minutes, and they can work very well to maintain hair but minoxidil by itself, even with say Nizoral 2 percent is unlikely to re-grow anything beyond fuzz. Yes, saw palmetto has some similar effects to finasteride but it is not cheap, there are very few studies and the effects are much weaker. It might actually cost more than finasteride.
With estrogens, you have estradiol, estrone and estriol. With androgens, you have testosterone, 5-DHT, androsterone and androstenedione, which was used by Mark McGwire and other steroid users in baseball, among others accused of using steroids.
Progesterone and DHEA are other types of steroids produced by and needed both sexes. They are all chemically similar to cholesterol. These steroidal hormones can often be converted by the body from one into another.
Aromatases are enzymes that can change testosterone into estrogen via a process known as aromatization. Estrogen and testosterone have similar chemical structures but estrogen can aromatize testosterone, i.e., change it to estrogen, while testosterone cannot turn estrogen into androgens.
So some of the various enzymes that end in "ase" can create both estrogens and androgens. Without reductase, DHT cannot be formed from testosterone. Testosterone, however, as mentioned, can be converted to estrogen via aromatization.
This mostly concerns people being prescribed testosterone, such as female to male transgender individuals or athletes with injuries prescribed androgen for treatment of injuries because just loading up on more and more T might have a limit as to achieving the primary goal of using the medication to increase circulating androgens. Also for athletes, DHT is likely to improve performance in terms of promoting muscle growth so some males may not want to decrease the levels of DHT created in the body even while knowing that it can cause baldness and acne and aggression, and other negative effects such as paraphilias which are all but unknown in cis-females.
This debilitating physical strength effect from 5-alpha reductase inhibitors is not so significant for male to female individuals except that it shows why some anti-androgens like dutasteride and finasteride have fairly weak feminization or effectively no feminization effects while others like spironolactone and flutamide, and compounds similar to flutamide, like bicalutamide can have far more significant effects on muscle, and can clearly decrease physical strength when taken by cis-males.
It helps to know at least a little about these different medications because transgender individuals might be able to have their treating practitioner switch from the weaker finasteride to flutamide if hair regrowth is a key concern. In my experiences, HRT physicians or their assistants might not titrate dosages or add things like flutamide or progesterone without being prompted and it helps to have a reason when you ask.
Some studies do, for instance, find positive effects from progesterone and its synthetics like depo-provera on both hair and breast and nipple size although this is vigorously debated.
Honestly, in my opinion, and according to the medical literature, none of the above non-hormonal treatments for cis-males, which I use here to include transgender females as well, and even those cocktails including the weak androgen inhibitors dutasteride and/or finasteride, are likely to result in significant hair regrowth, particularly for people over 30, without adding spironolactone or flutamide as part of the cocktail,
However, used in conjuction with estrogens or stronger anti-androgens, there could be a synergistic effect among 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, minoxidil or Nizoral. and I would encourage all cis-males, transgender or otherwise, unable to use or obtain estrogen or androgen-blockers to use all of these if possible.
From my reading of much of the most-recent literature, I am skeptical that any male to female transgender individual needs more than just estrogen plus flutamide or spironolactone for significant hair regrowth.
In fact there are current studies indicating that just estrogen alone is enough to regrow hair for transgender females provided high enough levels are prescribed. Many practitioners won't go this high up in terms of prescribing estrogen because they fear blood clotting becoming an issue, which is a legitimate concern but which may be well worth the risk for balding transgender females suffering from significant dysphoria.
This accounts for why most studies indicate that trans-females need both estrogen and either flutamide and spironolactone for significant hair regrowth. In Europe, they use Androcur, also known as cyproterone acetate exclusively instead of spironolactone.
Cyproterone acetate on its own may be more effective than spironolactone, also known as aldactone, for some but it isn't approved for the treatment of transgender females in the United States. It is available and fairly easy to get from overseas sites serving transgender individuals who don't have access to health insurance or a prescriber, which percentage might be half of our community. I will discuss this topic more fully in another post. I think that both cyproterone and spironolactone are roughly equal in their hair growth abilities.
For cis-males, regardless of future orientation, one needs to use all of the above non-feminizing baldness treatments daily for best resutls, except one only needs either finasteride or dutasteride, preferably the latter but not both.
When to start for cis-males? The very first second that you see a single hair fall be it at 18 or 30 or 50 years of age. All of the above combined with either finasteride or dutasteride seem to be quite effective to maintain a hairline but they won't regrow it fully the way that estrogen in combination with anti-androgens that bind to androgen receptors might.
For cis-females, it is recommended to avoid the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors if of child-bearing age. Doctors may take males off them too when males are attempting to start a family but this seems to be excessive and overkill. If a cis-male goes off them for 7-10 years, there's no getting that hair back after desisting. I did happen to go off them because of my physician's recommendation.
Why is it so difficult to regrow hair, even for people using estrogen? One theory is that balding scalp tissue is a sort of calcified scar which has lost its connection to most blood vessels and hence blood supply. Scarring is a very difficult thing to reverse anywhere on the body. Also, the male head tends to grow larger than the female head, further perhaps hampering blood flow by stretching out the affected tissue.
If someone wants to actually restore hair and is interested in even greater minutia, he or she might go to the site Perfect Hair Forever site, which is full of pertinent information for males and females. But I can summarize its findings pretty easily:
Intact transgender females supplementing with both estrogen, and one of the other among spironolactone or flutamide, or castrated males supplementing with estrogen alone are able to reverse baldness or shall we say have a significant probability of substantial regrowth in completely bald areas.
Castrated males and transsexual females no longer produce any significant amounts of testosterone or 5-DHT so only estrogen supplementation is necessary for them to theoretically regrow hair in balding areas.
We never used to think that massaging the scalp could restore hair from baldness and that it was instead an old husband's tale but it may be because it takes a massive amount of massage, say, 30 minutes per day, every day for a year, and then continuing onward, to break through the calcified tissue.
The author on that site tries to provide the total sum of minutes needed. I have verified that there are studies indicating positive effects on hair growth via sustained, rigorous massage but I am not sure this is really a likely path for most balding people. It requires too much effort, obviously much more than swallowing ten pills daily as do many female transgender individuals but for motivated people, it might improve their hair some.
A process called derma-rolling or micro-needling that he mentions seems to work as well, with several published papers indicative of its effectiveness and as to why this might work.
This treatment can be fairly painful, however and you have to keep at it for many months to a year, but essentially small pricks into the scalp "trick" the body into healing scalp tissue and re-establishing blood flow. It also seems to work well on non-ice pick facial scars and wrinkles but it can involve a bit of a bloody mess. Healing time is minimal since the skin really wasn't damaged deeply enough to cause more than say 12 hours of inflammation.
Finally, there is the estrogen factor. Research seems to indicate that estrogen greatly increases the length of the growth phase of hair and thus female hair might grow for three times as long as male hair before falling out and going into its resting phase. It is possibly for this reason that even the vast majority of men who essentially never lose any hair at all, still can't grow their hair long the way that women do, without achieving the mullet look.
Estrogen's affects on skin alone, in my experience are miraculous in terms of feminization and in terms of what transgender females are likely to view as improvement, meaning paler, less hairy and much softer, and these effects, unlike hair regrowth, begin immediately.
Heels of feet that were completely cross-linked before estrogen, meaning coarse and discolored, where even pumice might be useless but estrogen can immediately become much more supple.
So then, regardless of the efficacy of the medications above for males in maintaining or even subtly regrowing hair, males simply are never going to restore their mid-puberty locks from say ages 13-17 without hormonal manipulation via T-blockers that don't block androgen receptors.
Hair transplants don't improve hair quality generally unless the fringe hair remains very high on the sides and back of the scalp without any hint of the mullet-effect. I have seen this and such males with abundant fringe hair are able to get fantastic results from transplants but their hair is still inferior to that of most females.
I have anecdotal personal knowledge of this limiting quality factor for males regardless of treatment.
Both of my parents are in their 80's and they both have thick hair and maintain every follicle that they were born with, but still my father's hair can't match my mother's. She can still wear it down to her shoulders the way that she could when I was a child.
In the early 1970's when male hairstyles increased in length, my father's hair got curly and unruly and it simply was never going to look good worn long. It lacked the texture and sheen and was a bit mullety.
Most males don't care that much about the length of their hair. They just want the fullest coverage possible but there is nothing that I know of short of hormonal manipulation of the androgen receptors along with estrogen that will give a male long tresses that look and have the manageability of female locks.
Women's hair at its best has a consistency and sheen and smoothness when rubbed between the fingers that virtually no male, not even Jeff Bridges in Against All Odds, can match, as glorious as Mr. Bridge's hair was in that movie in his red Ferrari, hair blowing in the wind.
Most rock stars after 30 are wearing wigs or hair extensions. Mick Jagger had pretty great hair among front men and may have made it to 50 with great hair. George Harrison and his incredible long-growing hair is of note but it is apparent that some members of the Who and Zeppelin are "cheating" just like me and just like so many metal "hair" bands.
Rod Stewart? Pretty obvious, not that there is a thing wrong about anyone wearing wigs or hair extensions but there does seem to be a stigma, especially with respect to toupees which rarely seem to blend in or fit right compared to longer wigs that completely cover down to the neck or or further down.
So why do some men like my father or Ronald Reagan appear to have perfect hairlines into their 90's? In many cases, such men lack the ability to produce 5-alpha reductase at all and therefore have only testosterone and not any DHT at all, circulating in their systems. Dutasteride would be entirely superfluous for those males bearing this genetic trait and male pattern baldness is unknown among them.
One hears a lot about gender dysphoria but in my opinion, dysphoria about hair loss is probably just as brutal for many follicle-challenged males as is the gender dysphoria that many transgender females experience. For me, they are completely related and both started right after puberty at about the age of 19.
Anyone who goes to the male-oriented baldness sites can see this obsession. There is a willingness to try anything, be it onion juice or cod liver oil or inversion therapy or saw palmetto tablets or black cohosh or cayenne pepper or soy products, and on and on.
Many of these gentlemen however are unwilling to try even weak androgen blockers like finasteride and in my opinion, there is just not much hope for bald or balding males to keep their remaining hair without at least using such weak anti-androgens like dutasteride and finasteride sold by Keeps and other such companies.
Most of these packages advertised so frequently include minoxidil and finasteride, along with an online prescription that takes five minutes, and they can work very well to maintain hair but minoxidil by itself, even with say Nizoral 2 percent is unlikely to re-grow anything beyond fuzz. Yes, saw palmetto has some similar effects to finasteride but it is not cheap, there are very few studies and the effects are much weaker. It might actually cost more than finasteride.
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@JaneyElizabeth thanks for your in depth posts. I've run into you on Reddit a couple times before.
So to make sure I'm not misrepresenting your position: low E2 levels = breast growth with little hair growth; high E2 levels = hair growth with little breast growth? is this correct?
What do you think about Dr. Will Powers who has his transgender MtF patients maintain E2 levels far above WPATH guidelines? He reports that high E2 helps them grow breasts better than on the WPATH guidelines.
Also, on the topic of breast growth, Dr. Powers also claims that Spironolactone can lead to premature fusing of the breast ducts and inhibit further breast growth. Obviously very bad for trans women, but could be a benefit for cis men wishing to avoid gyno. But spironolactone also comes with a host of side effects. I've also read @pegasus2 write that spironolactone's effect of blocking aldosterone is beneficial as well, independent of its ability to block androgens.
Can spironolactone be used topically? I've read some people claim that spironolactone has to be metabolized in the liver before it can be effective. I have no idea if this is true. (but as I think about it, that doesn't sound correct at all...)
Could Estrogen used without an anti androgen still be effective? I know that using exogenous estrogen will decrease Testosterone levels, but not completely block the effect as an AA would. This could allow more sexual function. What about using exogenous estrogen with a topical anti androgen? I'm guessing that will also result in less sexual dysfunction than an oral anti androgen?
Finally, what is your position on using raloxifene to prevent gynocomastia? I understand that raloxifene by itself can lead to hair shedding, but another user on this forum had success cycling between E2 and switching to ralox whenever he started developing gyno. I'm also curious whether taking ralox simultaneously with high levels of E2 could work for hair growth without gyno.
Currently, I'm just using topical estriol (E3) and a topical anti androgen (RU55841). Though I found a source for oral estriol so I'm considering adding that as well, and I would also consider switching to a different topical AA. I'm going to give it a few months to see if a topical AA + E3 will be enough or if I need to upgrade to an oral anti androgen and/or E2.
So to make sure I'm not misrepresenting your position: low E2 levels = breast growth with little hair growth; high E2 levels = hair growth with little breast growth? is this correct?
What do you think about Dr. Will Powers who has his transgender MtF patients maintain E2 levels far above WPATH guidelines? He reports that high E2 helps them grow breasts better than on the WPATH guidelines.
Also, on the topic of breast growth, Dr. Powers also claims that Spironolactone can lead to premature fusing of the breast ducts and inhibit further breast growth. Obviously very bad for trans women, but could be a benefit for cis men wishing to avoid gyno. But spironolactone also comes with a host of side effects. I've also read @pegasus2 write that spironolactone's effect of blocking aldosterone is beneficial as well, independent of its ability to block androgens.
Can spironolactone be used topically? I've read some people claim that spironolactone has to be metabolized in the liver before it can be effective. I have no idea if this is true. (but as I think about it, that doesn't sound correct at all...)
Could Estrogen used without an anti androgen still be effective? I know that using exogenous estrogen will decrease Testosterone levels, but not completely block the effect as an AA would. This could allow more sexual function. What about using exogenous estrogen with a topical anti androgen? I'm guessing that will also result in less sexual dysfunction than an oral anti androgen?
Finally, what is your position on using raloxifene to prevent gynocomastia? I understand that raloxifene by itself can lead to hair shedding, but another user on this forum had success cycling between E2 and switching to ralox whenever he started developing gyno. I'm also curious whether taking ralox simultaneously with high levels of E2 could work for hair growth without gyno.
Currently, I'm just using topical estriol (E3) and a topical anti androgen (RU55841). Though I found a source for oral estriol so I'm considering adding that as well, and I would also consider switching to a different topical AA. I'm going to give it a few months to see if a topical AA + E3 will be enough or if I need to upgrade to an oral anti androgen and/or E2.
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I find Dr. Will Powers to be lackluster. He has Aspergers and is brilliant but it isn't science. There is little to no evidence that indicate any benefits of the "Powers" program. MtFs with crummy breast growth, which is most, worship him like a rock star. I have corresponded with him on his own forum. Once I went through methodology and his lack thereof, he disappeared and discontinued the debate. He is also not an endocrinologist. He is a family doctor with a specialty in treatment of MtFs (mostly since all the FtMs only use one thing before they become bald immediately). I mostly hang out on the DIY and AskMtFHRT sites and he is widely ridiculed. That doesn't mean that everything that he says is wrong; far from it but much of it is based upon conjecture and his own internal processing of "results". Yes, lots of folks are sucking on pills now, even @bridgeburn, but not me. I don't like it and I can afford parentheral ingestion methods and pills for swallowing.
Thank you for responding to what I wrote. My style is often to be provocative in the hope of getting everyone's else best on here and your knowledge of Dr. Powers shows that you have a facility with some of the most prevalent issues in MtF HRT. I will try to answer your more practical questions in the next reply.
Update: I watched Dr. Powers' Youtube presentation and my opinion of him has gone up. He appears to be stronger orally then his writing comes through. He has what is to me a highly recognizable personality and is able to recall copious amounts of interesting observations which are much less jarring "in person". As I said, many of his beliefs are mainstream but also such as his liking for bicalutamide, dislike of spironolactone and alpha reductase inhibitors there are preferences not recognized by wpath or the endocrine society. His presentation about breast growth is a bit less on solid ground and delves into interesting conjecture about correlative factors but without causative link. For an overview in two hrs of the entire field, this is recommended.
Goddess bless.
Thank you for responding to what I wrote. My style is often to be provocative in the hope of getting everyone's else best on here and your knowledge of Dr. Powers shows that you have a facility with some of the most prevalent issues in MtF HRT. I will try to answer your more practical questions in the next reply.
Update: I watched Dr. Powers' Youtube presentation and my opinion of him has gone up. He appears to be stronger orally then his writing comes through. He has what is to me a highly recognizable personality and is able to recall copious amounts of interesting observations which are much less jarring "in person". As I said, many of his beliefs are mainstream but also such as his liking for bicalutamide, dislike of spironolactone and alpha reductase inhibitors there are preferences not recognized by wpath or the endocrine society. His presentation about breast growth is a bit less on solid ground and delves into interesting conjecture about correlative factors but without causative link. For an overview in two hrs of the entire field, this is recommended.
Goddess bless.
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I actually read on this thread which is like War and Peace in length, earlier today that topical spironolactone might not be effective since it's the metabolites from the liver that make it effective. To be honest, no one seems to be reporting amazing hair growth on topical spironolactone.
Estradiol-only is sort of a new slogan of MtFs. Of course, we don't really mean only. Where's the fun in that? But some gals are touting injections of E2 together with progesterone as "being better". Of course they aren't, but injections are far cheaper. Hey, if it works for heroin, it must be true for E as well. Bring out the syringes. With respect to tomoxi and raloxi, I just try to read all of the non-binary posts. I get the impression that using either of these might significantly deflate breast growth but they are mostly used for cancer so we just don't have much but anecdotal evidence in terms of using them to avoid breast growth and maintain erectile capacity but I have corresponded with several people who say that they are effective.
I think that your potential protocols are interesting and we need folks trying different things and reporting back. I started off on estriol and now that I have made my peace with my big tits, I think that might be why. Looking at my Amazon orders, I have ordered Life-Flow menopausal blends roughly 100 times going back to the end of 2013. Why? It was easy to get and reasonably cheap and I could hide it from my wife. Later, I didn't even care and I had hormones in our underwear drawer and she still claims that she was clueless.
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Hair Remedies that Don't Work for Anybody Seeking Hair Regrowth
Beyond the foibles of transgender females being taken advantage of regarding non-hormonal breast growth, we have another type of products that tend not to work at all, salon hair products, special shampoos and hair supplements. Except for conditioning hair, none of these salon products work at all for anyone who doesn't have a severe nutritional deficiency.
Often, if not always, the "organic" substitutes cost far more than real estrogen; accordingly these pseudo-hair products are often very expensive.
Back in the olden days before minoxidil, one used to see exactly the same products advertised by health food chains, promoting useless treatments for male pattern baldness that usually were very expensive and if they worked at all, it was due to the massaging needed to work them into the scalp. Massaging water into the scalp would have worked just as well. Massaging for both men and women can have tiny results but is highly unlikely to be cosmetically significant.
But now it appears to be the cis-females who already got all the good hair, lol, getting snookered, and not just cis-males and transgender females.
Many good-natured cis-female acquaintances of mine keep touting biotin to me and I nod and thank them politely but that is one of the supplements that have been around forever touted to "regrow" hair back in 1983 and even before. Biotin is no secret.
Biotin may promote healthy nails but it doesn't grow hair or stop hair loss except for possibly people malnourished to the point of starvation. Biotin was the first thing that I used at age 20 and it did nothing, and the second thing that I added were B vitamins and they did nothing. These supplements won't hurt anyone unless taken in huge quantities but they won't improve hair.
In the absence of hormonal manipulation, and that can still be difficult and can take a long, long time, even when using estrogen and T-blockers, hair is absolutely in my experience is the hardest cosmetic attribute to change, i.e. improve, for both males and females.
And it gets worse.
Not only is not possible to regrow hair with these products except the one containing minoxidil, and not only do none of these products even slow hair loss in any visible way, but even aside from their having zero effects on growth or hair loss:
There are no non-hormonal products that even improve hair in terms of sheen, length, consistency, brittleness, smoothness or any of the other aspects that we find so fetching in the hair of certain lucky cis-females except for dandruff shampoos, and they too operate similarly to Nizoral by reducing fungi in the scalp.
Beautiful hair is largely genetics and gender-based, and the other significant aspect is age-related.
Here is a site that is really an extended advertisement that claims that they know14 things (actually) effective for hair regrowth: https://www.whowhatwear.com/best-hair-growth-products/slide11
This page seems to come up a lot when I research products that simply do not work and that are a waste of money for everyone, males, females and transgender individuals of all stripes.
To rip off the old song, "To all the woman, I've loved before", I sing instead, "to all the baldness cures I've tried before...." If I am emphatic, it is because I have wasted hundreds and hundreds of dollars on such "hair growth" products. I am with you, not against you.
Let's see, then.
Here's one of our big 14 products:
Biotin Shampoo Hair Growth B-Complex Formula: "Love this! I have thinning hair due to genetics; huge amount of hair fall. Since using this shampoo, the hair fall has significantly decreased and I can feel stubblies (is that a word?) on top of my head," a reviewer named Carol says.
I assume that stubblies is intended to mean new little hairs growing in, but until using spironolactone last summer, I have never seen any sort baby hairs coming in at my hairline even when when using the legitimate previously-mentioned products that have been double-blind tested that work to stop hair loss for cis-males.
Sorry, I am rooting for you, but no you don't see stubble, not from Biotin shampoo or B vitamins.
Here's another one with someone touting hair vitamins. Such supplements come up again and again and they are nothing new:
"My hair was falling out in clumps and getting super thin in the front," explained one reviewer Cyferguson. On the recommendation of my hairstylist, I ordered these vitamin gummies and now have tons of new hair growth. I'm so pleased".
If this is true, this woman just needed to eat because unless she was in a starvation state, sorry, no you do not see tons of new hair growth from vitamins. Before anything, she should have been in the dermatologist's office instead of sourcing gummy vitamins from her stylist.
Here someone touts another type of hair vitamins:
"I started to see a difference in as little as 2 weeks!" exclaims Antoinette Castillo on Amazon. "My hair was no longer falling out as much in the shower, and I began to see baby hairs growing in where my hair was thinning. I'm glad to have found a product that actually works. Even other people are noticing that my hair is growing back which definitely gives me a confidence boost."
Same thing, unless this person was suffering from serious malnutrition, there was no regrowth. I used to trick myself into thinking I saw things as well by using multiple angles and different types of lighting. What she likely sees are non-pigmented non-growing vellus hairs. I know. I know. The truth hurts.
Yet again, here is someone else touting yet another vitamin formulation with biotin: "I finished my first bottle, and I'm ordering another one!" satisfied reviewer KristinaM confesses. "The most noticeable effect I noticed during the first month is not the hair growth but the reduction of hair loss. I lose about half the hair I used to lose in the shower since taking Hairfluence." Yeah, right.
Below this "ad", there is a picture of Jennifer Anniston but I am not sure why, Ms. Anniston does have great amazing but it doesn't come from popping vitamins.
And another:
Combining pivotal ingredients like a whopping 5000 MCG of biotin in addition to helpful side hustlers like vitamin C and other B vitamins, these coated caplets from Nature's Bounty are a slam dunk for expedited hair growth says the article."I have Systemic Lupus Erythematosus," one Amazon reviewer disclosed. "Because of this disease, I have some hair loss, plus, thanks to all the biologic drugs I have to take, I had massive bald spots. My hair was falling out in the handfuls, so I was referred by a friend to take these vitamins. I started taking them and within 2 months had lots of new growth in my bald spots. I have continued to take the vitamins and my hair is full and beautiful."
Unless this person was literally in a state of starvation from her ailment or suffered instead from alopecia areata, that's just crap. Alopecia areata often does clear up spontaneously but I have only met two person my entire life suffering from this type of baldness which often involves patchy hair loss not thinning hair loss. If someone's hair is falling out in clumps, they need to go see a dermatologist right away.
I know whereof I speak. My hair actually did come out in clumps last summer and it was due to estrogenic hormonal influences. I have pictures. One should either see a dermatologist or an endocrinologist like I do.
Some women do experience highly concerning diffuse thinning but guess what is most likely to help: substances that manipulate hormones. Spironolactone is widely prescribed for cis-females when this happens and I am convinced that such diffuse thinning does respond to hormone-altering medications like spironolactone. It is right there in the medical literature.
Now here's a product at least mentioning something that could actually work in the right context.
It's called Propidren by HairGenics DHT Blocker & Hair Growth Supplement ($40) and the person touting it says: "I am a breast cancer survivor in remission. I am thrilled to add this to my regimen for the regrowth of my hair. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS WORKING FORMULA! Glad to see my results," says Amazon reviewer Crystal Ly.
So DHT inhibitors such as finasteride and dutasteride are DHT-blockers but when I look at the ingredients of Propidren, they are just the same useless things touted to "treat" male pattern baldness forever, thrown together in hopes of achieving synergy:
Ingredients. Biotin, Zinc, Iron, Saw Palmetto, Beta-Sitosterol, Horsetail Extract, Fo-tu, Pygeum Bark Powder, Green Tea Extract.
Been there done this.
Several of the above ingredients are claimed to cause feminization akin to Estroven while saw palmetto and pygeum bark theoretically could work because they are a bit like finasteride and dutasteride in that they mop up a tiny bit of DHT perhaps, but I have used them extensively and they did nothing. Propidren purchases are wasted money especially when cis-females have estrogen and t-blockers that they can take without side effects, unlike males.
40 bucks for this? Rogaine monthly is much cheaper than $40.
Remember our sad rule of thumb that applies to cis-males, cis-females and transgender individuals:
With respect to growing hair or stopping hair loss, the only treatment that even remotely works without manipulating hormone levels in the body or scalp is minoxidil, and it barely works even to prevent or even slow hair loss if not used with medications that are androgen-blockers.
It makes absolutely no sense for any cis-females to use these 14 products. Had I been able at age 19, I would have been taking both oral estrogen and spironolactone but they refused to prescribe it for males and we didn't know back then if temporary use of female hormones could interfere with male procreative processes unduly. I would have taken small breasts in a second, even presenting as male, over male pattern baldness but then again, I am transgender so it's a chicken and egg thing, sort of.
Beyond the foibles of transgender females being taken advantage of regarding non-hormonal breast growth, we have another type of products that tend not to work at all, salon hair products, special shampoos and hair supplements. Except for conditioning hair, none of these salon products work at all for anyone who doesn't have a severe nutritional deficiency.
Often, if not always, the "organic" substitutes cost far more than real estrogen; accordingly these pseudo-hair products are often very expensive.
Back in the olden days before minoxidil, one used to see exactly the same products advertised by health food chains, promoting useless treatments for male pattern baldness that usually were very expensive and if they worked at all, it was due to the massaging needed to work them into the scalp. Massaging water into the scalp would have worked just as well. Massaging for both men and women can have tiny results but is highly unlikely to be cosmetically significant.
But now it appears to be the cis-females who already got all the good hair, lol, getting snookered, and not just cis-males and transgender females.
Many good-natured cis-female acquaintances of mine keep touting biotin to me and I nod and thank them politely but that is one of the supplements that have been around forever touted to "regrow" hair back in 1983 and even before. Biotin is no secret.
Biotin may promote healthy nails but it doesn't grow hair or stop hair loss except for possibly people malnourished to the point of starvation. Biotin was the first thing that I used at age 20 and it did nothing, and the second thing that I added were B vitamins and they did nothing. These supplements won't hurt anyone unless taken in huge quantities but they won't improve hair.
In the absence of hormonal manipulation, and that can still be difficult and can take a long, long time, even when using estrogen and T-blockers, hair is absolutely in my experience is the hardest cosmetic attribute to change, i.e. improve, for both males and females.
And it gets worse.
Not only is not possible to regrow hair with these products except the one containing minoxidil, and not only do none of these products even slow hair loss in any visible way, but even aside from their having zero effects on growth or hair loss:
There are no non-hormonal products that even improve hair in terms of sheen, length, consistency, brittleness, smoothness or any of the other aspects that we find so fetching in the hair of certain lucky cis-females except for dandruff shampoos, and they too operate similarly to Nizoral by reducing fungi in the scalp.
Beautiful hair is largely genetics and gender-based, and the other significant aspect is age-related.
Here is a site that is really an extended advertisement that claims that they know14 things (actually) effective for hair regrowth: https://www.whowhatwear.com/best-hair-growth-products/slide11
This page seems to come up a lot when I research products that simply do not work and that are a waste of money for everyone, males, females and transgender individuals of all stripes.
To rip off the old song, "To all the woman, I've loved before", I sing instead, "to all the baldness cures I've tried before...." If I am emphatic, it is because I have wasted hundreds and hundreds of dollars on such "hair growth" products. I am with you, not against you.
Let's see, then.
Here's one of our big 14 products:
Biotin Shampoo Hair Growth B-Complex Formula: "Love this! I have thinning hair due to genetics; huge amount of hair fall. Since using this shampoo, the hair fall has significantly decreased and I can feel stubblies (is that a word?) on top of my head," a reviewer named Carol says.
I assume that stubblies is intended to mean new little hairs growing in, but until using spironolactone last summer, I have never seen any sort baby hairs coming in at my hairline even when when using the legitimate previously-mentioned products that have been double-blind tested that work to stop hair loss for cis-males.
Sorry, I am rooting for you, but no you don't see stubble, not from Biotin shampoo or B vitamins.
Here's another one with someone touting hair vitamins. Such supplements come up again and again and they are nothing new:
"My hair was falling out in clumps and getting super thin in the front," explained one reviewer Cyferguson. On the recommendation of my hairstylist, I ordered these vitamin gummies and now have tons of new hair growth. I'm so pleased".
If this is true, this woman just needed to eat because unless she was in a starvation state, sorry, no you do not see tons of new hair growth from vitamins. Before anything, she should have been in the dermatologist's office instead of sourcing gummy vitamins from her stylist.
Here someone touts another type of hair vitamins:
"I started to see a difference in as little as 2 weeks!" exclaims Antoinette Castillo on Amazon. "My hair was no longer falling out as much in the shower, and I began to see baby hairs growing in where my hair was thinning. I'm glad to have found a product that actually works. Even other people are noticing that my hair is growing back which definitely gives me a confidence boost."
Same thing, unless this person was suffering from serious malnutrition, there was no regrowth. I used to trick myself into thinking I saw things as well by using multiple angles and different types of lighting. What she likely sees are non-pigmented non-growing vellus hairs. I know. I know. The truth hurts.
Yet again, here is someone else touting yet another vitamin formulation with biotin: "I finished my first bottle, and I'm ordering another one!" satisfied reviewer KristinaM confesses. "The most noticeable effect I noticed during the first month is not the hair growth but the reduction of hair loss. I lose about half the hair I used to lose in the shower since taking Hairfluence." Yeah, right.
Below this "ad", there is a picture of Jennifer Anniston but I am not sure why, Ms. Anniston does have great amazing but it doesn't come from popping vitamins.
And another:
Combining pivotal ingredients like a whopping 5000 MCG of biotin in addition to helpful side hustlers like vitamin C and other B vitamins, these coated caplets from Nature's Bounty are a slam dunk for expedited hair growth says the article."I have Systemic Lupus Erythematosus," one Amazon reviewer disclosed. "Because of this disease, I have some hair loss, plus, thanks to all the biologic drugs I have to take, I had massive bald spots. My hair was falling out in the handfuls, so I was referred by a friend to take these vitamins. I started taking them and within 2 months had lots of new growth in my bald spots. I have continued to take the vitamins and my hair is full and beautiful."
Unless this person was literally in a state of starvation from her ailment or suffered instead from alopecia areata, that's just crap. Alopecia areata often does clear up spontaneously but I have only met two person my entire life suffering from this type of baldness which often involves patchy hair loss not thinning hair loss. If someone's hair is falling out in clumps, they need to go see a dermatologist right away.
I know whereof I speak. My hair actually did come out in clumps last summer and it was due to estrogenic hormonal influences. I have pictures. One should either see a dermatologist or an endocrinologist like I do.
Some women do experience highly concerning diffuse thinning but guess what is most likely to help: substances that manipulate hormones. Spironolactone is widely prescribed for cis-females when this happens and I am convinced that such diffuse thinning does respond to hormone-altering medications like spironolactone. It is right there in the medical literature.
Now here's a product at least mentioning something that could actually work in the right context.
It's called Propidren by HairGenics DHT Blocker & Hair Growth Supplement ($40) and the person touting it says: "I am a breast cancer survivor in remission. I am thrilled to add this to my regimen for the regrowth of my hair. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS WORKING FORMULA! Glad to see my results," says Amazon reviewer Crystal Ly.
So DHT inhibitors such as finasteride and dutasteride are DHT-blockers but when I look at the ingredients of Propidren, they are just the same useless things touted to "treat" male pattern baldness forever, thrown together in hopes of achieving synergy:
Ingredients. Biotin, Zinc, Iron, Saw Palmetto, Beta-Sitosterol, Horsetail Extract, Fo-tu, Pygeum Bark Powder, Green Tea Extract.
Been there done this.
Several of the above ingredients are claimed to cause feminization akin to Estroven while saw palmetto and pygeum bark theoretically could work because they are a bit like finasteride and dutasteride in that they mop up a tiny bit of DHT perhaps, but I have used them extensively and they did nothing. Propidren purchases are wasted money especially when cis-females have estrogen and t-blockers that they can take without side effects, unlike males.
40 bucks for this? Rogaine monthly is much cheaper than $40.
Remember our sad rule of thumb that applies to cis-males, cis-females and transgender individuals:
With respect to growing hair or stopping hair loss, the only treatment that even remotely works without manipulating hormone levels in the body or scalp is minoxidil, and it barely works even to prevent or even slow hair loss if not used with medications that are androgen-blockers.
It makes absolutely no sense for any cis-females to use these 14 products. Had I been able at age 19, I would have been taking both oral estrogen and spironolactone but they refused to prescribe it for males and we didn't know back then if temporary use of female hormones could interfere with male procreative processes unduly. I would have taken small breasts in a second, even presenting as male, over male pattern baldness but then again, I am transgender so it's a chicken and egg thing, sort of.
- Reaction score
- 2,028
Part 2:
Moving on:
Here's a product geared towards taking advantage of black females:
The Roots Naturelle Virgin Hair Fertilizer Conditioning Treatment ($16)
"Claims the blurb/ad, "Any product that reads "hair fertilizer" immediately piques our interest. Ideal for African American hair types, this deep conditioner is meant to heal hair that's been damaged due to braiding, heat, and chemicals. Essentially, it utilizes key power players like proteins, vitamins, olive oil, shea butter, and oils from peppermint and sweet almond to treat and restore weak and brittle strands. Just look at the below happy review for proof.
"100% works!! Warning, it does feel like an Icy-Hot on your scalp. The first time it was kind of a shock, but it hasn't bothered me since, and it has definitely helped my hair grow double what it normally would. I usually use it every other day, and I'll leave it on for about five minutes in the shower. It has definitely helped to heal the damage in my hair."
Nope, not either although this ad is less misleading than others.
In terms of breakage and frizziness, the races might be ordered Asians, Native Americans, Whites and African-Americans. That doesn't mean any sort of hair consistency is "better".
Moisturizing products might help excessive breakage but no product is likely to hair grow double, even if only in reference to hair volume merely through conditioning. This could possibly be a great conditioner for blacks, but it isn't going to double the volume or anything even close to that. Nor is this product any sort of hair fertilizer. Hair is not grass and none of the listed ingredients do anything except to coat the already existent hair shafts.
And wait a minute, what the heck does the "virgin" reference in the product name mean? Does it restore virginal hair? And it is naturelle, which must be lots better than natural.
Then there's Easy Hair Growth Oil, now only $19:
It contains castor oil, caffeine, rosemary oil, and biotin, purportedly to infuse both scalp and strands with essential omega-6 fatty acids, minerals, proteins, and vitamin E.
These are just different things that men have been trying to regrow hair or prevent baldness forever. All of these are referenced on the Perfect Hair Forever site.
Unless someone has a nutritional deficiency, this is a conditioner and nothing more except a bunch of different things thrown together that balding males who refused to use finasteride or dutasteride hope will work. They don't.
$19 dollars for a really good conditioner or hair treatment could be worth it for some people but you can get several effective such products at Amazon for about $8.
Reviewer Erin Graham on Amazon continues :"when I find something that is exceptional, I have to rave about it. I started using this oil about three weeks ago. Since then, I have been religiously using it every night. I can tell the difference in the health of my scalp. It feels nourished and healthy and it is evidenced in the rapid growth of my hair. This is a definite keeper in my arsenal of products for natural hair."
Yeah, yeah. Theoretically caffeine might accelerate growth slightly but it does not cause rapid regrowth in males. Possibly the female pathways differ but just soak your head in coffee and save the bucks. The Perfect Hair site discusses caffeine and it is a waste of time unless you refuse to try spironolactone or estrogen.
I do agree with her. on one thing. When I find a treatment that is exceptional, I try to tell all of my female friends about it. Try spironolactone! Try estrogen! Go get a prescription tomorrow or order Biestro just to see.
Even if you are not balding, these hormonal medications might substantially improve the quality of your hair, allowing it to grow longer, thicker or shinier without breakage, sort of like Jennifer Anniston's.
Look at all of the young cis-females and their pictures on google images or youtube, say under 25 years old or even 30 years old. All of them use estrogen and spironolactone and they tend to all have exceptional hair. Check these pictures of transgender females before and after:
https://www.reddit.com/r/transtimelines/
Things that impact hormonal levels are the only things that regrow hair or that even stop hair loss or even improve hair for anyone, male or female but I can't even get my sister to listen to me.
I fail to understand at all, the bias that some women have against estrogen supplementation. Any dermatologist is going to hand you a script for either estrogen or an anti-androgenic medication after five minutes and then shoo you away unless there is something extremely rare going on, like alopecia areata going on.
There's not even any point in fretting about cis-female hair loss unless and until said female tries spironolactone first! It should be automatic in these situations just as it often is for teenage girls with acne. Remember DHT causes all of these terrible afflictions like acne, baldness, dermatitis, rashes sores and so on.
It's rather cis-males who have to twiddle their thumbs and think before using anti-androgens because except for dutasteride and finasteride, in large enough quantities, every single thing that regrows hair makes erections difficult or impossible, and impacts fertility and makes them physically, much, much weaker if used to approximate cis-female hormonal profiles.
Oh well.
Then we come to Viviscal, which is the only one along with Keronique even with a reputation for growing hair, meaning that I have heard of this particular brand name. It is ultra-expensive and contains the following ingredients: Amino Mar Marine Complex, Horsetail (Stem) Extract, Millet Seed Extract, Vitamin C (from Acerola Cherry and as Ascorbic Acid), Niacin (as Niacinamide), Biotin, Iron.
Once again, this is just a warmed over vitamin concoction plus Aminomar Marine Complex, which appears to be nothing more than protein. They have a vegetarian version that replaces the Marine Complex with Biotin. This one is a major, major rip-off. Virtually all the articles that refer to it are advertisements that link to each other in a looping fashion.
There are no non-hormonal supplements that do anything to affect hair significantly, either positively or negatively for either males or females. Otherwise, I would be taking fist-fulls of any vitamins that worked. All of these over-the-counter products intentionally mislead by saying something like,"studies indicate that hair growth isn't possible at all without supplement X", let's say Biotin.
What they don't say is that, what is logically and inevitably true is that no hair grows in the complete absence of circulating biotin. But again, virtually everyone already has more than enough of biotin circulating within them than is necessary for hair growth. Just downing more biotin does zero. The same goes for Vitamin C, niacin, keratin, iron and virtually every other mineral--unless you are in a starvation state, additional vitamins and minerals do nothing for hair at all.
The other thing is that all of the above users are self-reporting which virtually always involves the placebo effect or hoping against hope under a lighted mirror which I am more than familiar with. For me, polysorbate 80 was like this. None of the listed ingredients that I have seen work at all except for saw palmetto, and dutasteride and finasteride are far, far more effective than saw palmetto.
I have used saw palmetto. Theoretically it could have tiny effects to diminish DHT but it won't regrow hair, just as neither dutasteride or finasteride regrow hair. I reviewed a brand new review of double-blind studies last night and all of the products I have previously mentioned, minoxild, Nizoral, dutasteride, finasteride, i.e., products that do not induce feminization, are unable to regrow hair. These products all do work, however at stopping hair loss, at least a little. Start early with them.
Only estrogen, flutamide, spironolactone, cypreterone ,and other similar acting drugs that bind to the androgen receptors regrow hair and even they might not completely work for former cis-males in transtion.
The supplement-based "treatments" don't prevent hair loss. They don't prevent frizzy hair. They don't regrow hair. They don't make hair thicker. Except for the conditioning types that, well, condition the outside of the hair, basically there are no effects good or bad.
I can't cut hair without using a bowl but all of these products that claim that they are touted by the best hair stylists--that is just fatuous. Under the "ad/blurb" the person touting Viviscal states: I've talked to scores of hairstylists who recommend Viviscal tablets.
Oh really?
Have these hair stylists examined the latest medical literature where double-blind statistically significant testing has been done? Do hair stylists have special training in statistical analysis? My rule of thumb is again never purchase any hair products, particularly that cost more than $10 at a cosmetic salon unless you just want to do so, sort of as a tip since the stylist may get a cut of proceeds.
Number 13 on our "effective" list of products that "actually" make hair grow reads:
"I love and swear by countless products from Hum Nutrition (specifically Flatter Me, $25; Beauty Zzzz, $10; and Ripped Rooster, $40), but these hair-boosting gummies are by far my fave, and I swear on my life to anyone who will listen that they've completely transformed my hair in the past year since I've started taking them. They taste great (but I recommend eating them with food because they contain zinc), and my hair has never looked so thick or grown so fast".
This sounds like rank plagiarism from one of the products above. Just think, fellow transgender females, all we need are vitamins to cover our balding areas and completely transform our hair.
Last and possibly least comes:
Nutrafol Core for Women ($79):
"By addressing multiple causes for thinning strands and poor hair health, Nutrofol has basically designed the holy-grail hair supplement that scientifically works to boost thickness, length, and overall hair happiness. Powered by plants and a bounty of nature's best hair healers, the impressive ingredient list includes things like ashwagandha, saw palmetto, hydrolyzed collagen, tocotrienols (vitamin E), a special form of curcumin extracted from turmeric, among other antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals".
Aarggh! What the heck is "hair happiness?" $79! I have tried French products with placenta factors. Nutrafol has botanical factors and is "powered by plants". They too have a phony study.
Keranique is another product that I am slightly familiar with which may stop hair loss but this is only because one of the five factors or whatever that they tout is minoxidil. All the other steps simply add volume and coat the hair strands. If the price is decent compared to buying minoxidil and separate shampoo and conditioner, then go for it. At least this one has the capacity to slightly grow vellus hair and thicken strands.
This is a fair better and more truthful article about options for women: https://www.allure.com/story/hair-loss-treatment-plans that actually mentions going to the dermatologist and some new treatments that show promise but it still claims that Nutrafol is a good purchase.
It does mention dandruff shampoos which may work like Nizoral but not as effectively in terms of slowing hair loss so that's true.
I go to a clinic that has literally scores of anti-aging treatments that actually work for cis-females and transgender females, like derma-rolling, botox, chemical peels, filler, collagen injections, etc. and they still try to pawn off special shampoos or conditioners as you go out the door. Some shampoos and conditioners do make a person's hair more manageable or shiny but they do not grow hair or prevent hair loss and none of them are worth more than $10.
I know that many, many transgender females don't have access to anyone to prescribe for them or are afraid of unnatural hormones, and phytoestrogens do act in some ways similarly to prescribed estrogenic hormones but they do so too weakly so that on a bang for the buck basis, they aren't likely to provide effects worth paying for in my opinion. Been there, done that. You know, like eating tofu for every meal....
But cosmetic salons or hair salons are great, as long as no one gets fooled. Different types of hair styles that might be more manageable, also heat and coating treatments that may make hair shiner, more manageable, less frizzy, less likely to break off and other nice cosmetic effects, and for many, many females these hair treatments "work" and are worth the expense and it is a nice bonding experience. Just don't buy any of their products thinking that you are going to reverse hair loss.
Moving on:
Here's a product geared towards taking advantage of black females:
The Roots Naturelle Virgin Hair Fertilizer Conditioning Treatment ($16)
"Claims the blurb/ad, "Any product that reads "hair fertilizer" immediately piques our interest. Ideal for African American hair types, this deep conditioner is meant to heal hair that's been damaged due to braiding, heat, and chemicals. Essentially, it utilizes key power players like proteins, vitamins, olive oil, shea butter, and oils from peppermint and sweet almond to treat and restore weak and brittle strands. Just look at the below happy review for proof.
"100% works!! Warning, it does feel like an Icy-Hot on your scalp. The first time it was kind of a shock, but it hasn't bothered me since, and it has definitely helped my hair grow double what it normally would. I usually use it every other day, and I'll leave it on for about five minutes in the shower. It has definitely helped to heal the damage in my hair."
Nope, not either although this ad is less misleading than others.
In terms of breakage and frizziness, the races might be ordered Asians, Native Americans, Whites and African-Americans. That doesn't mean any sort of hair consistency is "better".
Moisturizing products might help excessive breakage but no product is likely to hair grow double, even if only in reference to hair volume merely through conditioning. This could possibly be a great conditioner for blacks, but it isn't going to double the volume or anything even close to that. Nor is this product any sort of hair fertilizer. Hair is not grass and none of the listed ingredients do anything except to coat the already existent hair shafts.
And wait a minute, what the heck does the "virgin" reference in the product name mean? Does it restore virginal hair? And it is naturelle, which must be lots better than natural.
Then there's Easy Hair Growth Oil, now only $19:
It contains castor oil, caffeine, rosemary oil, and biotin, purportedly to infuse both scalp and strands with essential omega-6 fatty acids, minerals, proteins, and vitamin E.
These are just different things that men have been trying to regrow hair or prevent baldness forever. All of these are referenced on the Perfect Hair Forever site.
Unless someone has a nutritional deficiency, this is a conditioner and nothing more except a bunch of different things thrown together that balding males who refused to use finasteride or dutasteride hope will work. They don't.
$19 dollars for a really good conditioner or hair treatment could be worth it for some people but you can get several effective such products at Amazon for about $8.
Reviewer Erin Graham on Amazon continues :"when I find something that is exceptional, I have to rave about it. I started using this oil about three weeks ago. Since then, I have been religiously using it every night. I can tell the difference in the health of my scalp. It feels nourished and healthy and it is evidenced in the rapid growth of my hair. This is a definite keeper in my arsenal of products for natural hair."
Yeah, yeah. Theoretically caffeine might accelerate growth slightly but it does not cause rapid regrowth in males. Possibly the female pathways differ but just soak your head in coffee and save the bucks. The Perfect Hair site discusses caffeine and it is a waste of time unless you refuse to try spironolactone or estrogen.
I do agree with her. on one thing. When I find a treatment that is exceptional, I try to tell all of my female friends about it. Try spironolactone! Try estrogen! Go get a prescription tomorrow or order Biestro just to see.
Even if you are not balding, these hormonal medications might substantially improve the quality of your hair, allowing it to grow longer, thicker or shinier without breakage, sort of like Jennifer Anniston's.
Look at all of the young cis-females and their pictures on google images or youtube, say under 25 years old or even 30 years old. All of them use estrogen and spironolactone and they tend to all have exceptional hair. Check these pictures of transgender females before and after:
https://www.reddit.com/r/transtimelines/
Things that impact hormonal levels are the only things that regrow hair or that even stop hair loss or even improve hair for anyone, male or female but I can't even get my sister to listen to me.
I fail to understand at all, the bias that some women have against estrogen supplementation. Any dermatologist is going to hand you a script for either estrogen or an anti-androgenic medication after five minutes and then shoo you away unless there is something extremely rare going on, like alopecia areata going on.
There's not even any point in fretting about cis-female hair loss unless and until said female tries spironolactone first! It should be automatic in these situations just as it often is for teenage girls with acne. Remember DHT causes all of these terrible afflictions like acne, baldness, dermatitis, rashes sores and so on.
It's rather cis-males who have to twiddle their thumbs and think before using anti-androgens because except for dutasteride and finasteride, in large enough quantities, every single thing that regrows hair makes erections difficult or impossible, and impacts fertility and makes them physically, much, much weaker if used to approximate cis-female hormonal profiles.
Oh well.
Then we come to Viviscal, which is the only one along with Keronique even with a reputation for growing hair, meaning that I have heard of this particular brand name. It is ultra-expensive and contains the following ingredients: Amino Mar Marine Complex, Horsetail (Stem) Extract, Millet Seed Extract, Vitamin C (from Acerola Cherry and as Ascorbic Acid), Niacin (as Niacinamide), Biotin, Iron.
Once again, this is just a warmed over vitamin concoction plus Aminomar Marine Complex, which appears to be nothing more than protein. They have a vegetarian version that replaces the Marine Complex with Biotin. This one is a major, major rip-off. Virtually all the articles that refer to it are advertisements that link to each other in a looping fashion.
There are no non-hormonal supplements that do anything to affect hair significantly, either positively or negatively for either males or females. Otherwise, I would be taking fist-fulls of any vitamins that worked. All of these over-the-counter products intentionally mislead by saying something like,"studies indicate that hair growth isn't possible at all without supplement X", let's say Biotin.
What they don't say is that, what is logically and inevitably true is that no hair grows in the complete absence of circulating biotin. But again, virtually everyone already has more than enough of biotin circulating within them than is necessary for hair growth. Just downing more biotin does zero. The same goes for Vitamin C, niacin, keratin, iron and virtually every other mineral--unless you are in a starvation state, additional vitamins and minerals do nothing for hair at all.
The other thing is that all of the above users are self-reporting which virtually always involves the placebo effect or hoping against hope under a lighted mirror which I am more than familiar with. For me, polysorbate 80 was like this. None of the listed ingredients that I have seen work at all except for saw palmetto, and dutasteride and finasteride are far, far more effective than saw palmetto.
I have used saw palmetto. Theoretically it could have tiny effects to diminish DHT but it won't regrow hair, just as neither dutasteride or finasteride regrow hair. I reviewed a brand new review of double-blind studies last night and all of the products I have previously mentioned, minoxild, Nizoral, dutasteride, finasteride, i.e., products that do not induce feminization, are unable to regrow hair. These products all do work, however at stopping hair loss, at least a little. Start early with them.
Only estrogen, flutamide, spironolactone, cypreterone ,and other similar acting drugs that bind to the androgen receptors regrow hair and even they might not completely work for former cis-males in transtion.
The supplement-based "treatments" don't prevent hair loss. They don't prevent frizzy hair. They don't regrow hair. They don't make hair thicker. Except for the conditioning types that, well, condition the outside of the hair, basically there are no effects good or bad.
I can't cut hair without using a bowl but all of these products that claim that they are touted by the best hair stylists--that is just fatuous. Under the "ad/blurb" the person touting Viviscal states: I've talked to scores of hairstylists who recommend Viviscal tablets.
Oh really?
Have these hair stylists examined the latest medical literature where double-blind statistically significant testing has been done? Do hair stylists have special training in statistical analysis? My rule of thumb is again never purchase any hair products, particularly that cost more than $10 at a cosmetic salon unless you just want to do so, sort of as a tip since the stylist may get a cut of proceeds.
Number 13 on our "effective" list of products that "actually" make hair grow reads:
"I love and swear by countless products from Hum Nutrition (specifically Flatter Me, $25; Beauty Zzzz, $10; and Ripped Rooster, $40), but these hair-boosting gummies are by far my fave, and I swear on my life to anyone who will listen that they've completely transformed my hair in the past year since I've started taking them. They taste great (but I recommend eating them with food because they contain zinc), and my hair has never looked so thick or grown so fast".
This sounds like rank plagiarism from one of the products above. Just think, fellow transgender females, all we need are vitamins to cover our balding areas and completely transform our hair.
Last and possibly least comes:
Nutrafol Core for Women ($79):
"By addressing multiple causes for thinning strands and poor hair health, Nutrofol has basically designed the holy-grail hair supplement that scientifically works to boost thickness, length, and overall hair happiness. Powered by plants and a bounty of nature's best hair healers, the impressive ingredient list includes things like ashwagandha, saw palmetto, hydrolyzed collagen, tocotrienols (vitamin E), a special form of curcumin extracted from turmeric, among other antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals".
Aarggh! What the heck is "hair happiness?" $79! I have tried French products with placenta factors. Nutrafol has botanical factors and is "powered by plants". They too have a phony study.
Keranique is another product that I am slightly familiar with which may stop hair loss but this is only because one of the five factors or whatever that they tout is minoxidil. All the other steps simply add volume and coat the hair strands. If the price is decent compared to buying minoxidil and separate shampoo and conditioner, then go for it. At least this one has the capacity to slightly grow vellus hair and thicken strands.
This is a fair better and more truthful article about options for women: https://www.allure.com/story/hair-loss-treatment-plans that actually mentions going to the dermatologist and some new treatments that show promise but it still claims that Nutrafol is a good purchase.
It does mention dandruff shampoos which may work like Nizoral but not as effectively in terms of slowing hair loss so that's true.
I go to a clinic that has literally scores of anti-aging treatments that actually work for cis-females and transgender females, like derma-rolling, botox, chemical peels, filler, collagen injections, etc. and they still try to pawn off special shampoos or conditioners as you go out the door. Some shampoos and conditioners do make a person's hair more manageable or shiny but they do not grow hair or prevent hair loss and none of them are worth more than $10.
I know that many, many transgender females don't have access to anyone to prescribe for them or are afraid of unnatural hormones, and phytoestrogens do act in some ways similarly to prescribed estrogenic hormones but they do so too weakly so that on a bang for the buck basis, they aren't likely to provide effects worth paying for in my opinion. Been there, done that. You know, like eating tofu for every meal....
But cosmetic salons or hair salons are great, as long as no one gets fooled. Different types of hair styles that might be more manageable, also heat and coating treatments that may make hair shiner, more manageable, less frizzy, less likely to break off and other nice cosmetic effects, and for many, many females these hair treatments "work" and are worth the expense and it is a nice bonding experience. Just don't buy any of their products thinking that you are going to reverse hair loss.
- Reaction score
- 2,028
There is probably a better way of doing this but I am a newbie and an enby:
John Difool said: ↑
When you let yourself go the Estrogen Progesterone and strong AA blockers route at castration level and female range, you are playing a totally different game than most folks on this forum who complain getting gyno on Finasteride. So no wonder you like @bridgeburn post since he decided to use hrt just to keep his hair. In that situation you almost have no excuses no to regrowth some hair minus a few exceptions. But for most folks here it's like keeping their male attributes while regrowing their hair using one magical topical lotion which scammers are happy to offer or some futuristic treatment they will never be able to access. No wonder most of the conversations are boring to your liking.
JaneyElizabeth said:
I didn't say that it was boring but I might try to distinguish the two types of extreme protocols folks, i.e., those whose primary goal is avoiding gyno at all costs versus those who just titrate upwards as long as they keep seeing hair improvement. You are right that younger MtFs tend not to struggle with this since "male" hair is easily transformed into XX hair for those who never bald, but for older MtFs, there is nothing assured about regrowth at all from what I can discern and there have been several people who have tried fairly extreme MtF HRT protocols with lackluster results. I have always had more or less full coverage but I had diffuse thinning even on the sides. Right now, my interest has to do with the need for maintaining hormonal levels at adult female levels for six to 12 months before hair improvement might be noticeable. Because of my own situation leading to a hopeful crescendo, I hope to sort of provide real-time pictures and feedback because I never before even bothered with targets because all of my other HRT results were so uncanny but my hair was lagging somewhat. I also had a shed to full baldness last year and I have photographic evidence to show that such HRT sheds might be benevolent unlike other sheds that seem intertwined with male pattern baldness/Telogen Effluvium. Goddess bless.
John Difool said: ↑
When you let yourself go the Estrogen Progesterone and strong AA blockers route at castration level and female range, you are playing a totally different game than most folks on this forum who complain getting gyno on Finasteride. So no wonder you like @bridgeburn post since he decided to use hrt just to keep his hair. In that situation you almost have no excuses no to regrowth some hair minus a few exceptions. But for most folks here it's like keeping their male attributes while regrowing their hair using one magical topical lotion which scammers are happy to offer or some futuristic treatment they will never be able to access. No wonder most of the conversations are boring to your liking.
JaneyElizabeth said:
I didn't say that it was boring but I might try to distinguish the two types of extreme protocols folks, i.e., those whose primary goal is avoiding gyno at all costs versus those who just titrate upwards as long as they keep seeing hair improvement. You are right that younger MtFs tend not to struggle with this since "male" hair is easily transformed into XX hair for those who never bald, but for older MtFs, there is nothing assured about regrowth at all from what I can discern and there have been several people who have tried fairly extreme MtF HRT protocols with lackluster results. I have always had more or less full coverage but I had diffuse thinning even on the sides. Right now, my interest has to do with the need for maintaining hormonal levels at adult female levels for six to 12 months before hair improvement might be noticeable. Because of my own situation leading to a hopeful crescendo, I hope to sort of provide real-time pictures and feedback because I never before even bothered with targets because all of my other HRT results were so uncanny but my hair was lagging somewhat. I also had a shed to full baldness last year and I have photographic evidence to show that such HRT sheds might be benevolent unlike other sheds that seem intertwined with male pattern baldness/Telogen Effluvium. Goddess bless.
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Exploring the Hormonal Route:
I am interested in what appear to be two different approaches to cis-male hair regrowth via hormonal manipulation. We have one group that is composed of people who don't fear gyno at all and may even welcome it versus what seems to be the majority, those who make all of their hormonal medication decisions with respect to always avoiding gyno. What are the relative success rates of these two different approaches?
It appears to me from going through the thread that people who let the gyno issue primarily inform their medication decisions, often appear frustrated with their lack of substantial results and tend to experience multiple sheds and little to no cosmetically significant hair regrowth. The same appears to be true for people who use topical hormonal medications, except for Estrogel.
Group A, which might be called the HRT group appears to have far more success not only in regrowing hair but also in terms of being able to grow their hair long and in terms of having scalp hair that others find "attractive". Group B, the gyno-avoiders might see thickening or some amelioration of hair loss but none (few?) seem to be achieving cosmetically significant hair regrowth. Group A, however, often experience restoration of juvenile/pubertal hairlines that are astounding in terms of cosmetic improvement.
In terms of goals, then, these two groups appear to have little or nothing in common. Many males find Tom Selleck-type hair without loss in the crown to be all that they want and the ability to grow their hair long appears not particularly important. Group A, however, finds these type of male improvements in coverage to be all but useless and cosmetically unacceptable. AntyDHTor had results that many, many folks on here have mentioned as being excellent; I find his "results" to be simply horrible. He looks far less attractive in his after pictures and his hairline is way, way too low. Coverage for the sake of coverage is pretty meh from my point of view.
So is there any way to bring these two groups together or are we wasting each other's time? I tend to browse rapidly the comments except for @bridgeburn because the no-gyno at all costs folks appear to never report back with anything remotely cosmetically significant; they appear to suffer incessantly from sides that MtFs don't seem to encounter and they whine a lot. I have tried something similar to the avoid-gyno approach and it simply went nowhere. Among caucasians, XX hair and XY hair are so fundamentally different that for me, with respect to XY improvements, meh. I maintained for decades on minoxidil/finasteride but it still was crappy hair that wouldn't grow long and that the wind destroyed. I never ever saw any regrowth but since my thinning is diffuse, that could be why but my expectations are far higher in terms of what my erstwhile locks look like.
I am interested in what appear to be two different approaches to cis-male hair regrowth via hormonal manipulation. We have one group that is composed of people who don't fear gyno at all and may even welcome it versus what seems to be the majority, those who make all of their hormonal medication decisions with respect to always avoiding gyno. What are the relative success rates of these two different approaches?
It appears to me from going through the thread that people who let the gyno issue primarily inform their medication decisions, often appear frustrated with their lack of substantial results and tend to experience multiple sheds and little to no cosmetically significant hair regrowth. The same appears to be true for people who use topical hormonal medications, except for Estrogel.
Group A, which might be called the HRT group appears to have far more success not only in regrowing hair but also in terms of being able to grow their hair long and in terms of having scalp hair that others find "attractive". Group B, the gyno-avoiders might see thickening or some amelioration of hair loss but none (few?) seem to be achieving cosmetically significant hair regrowth. Group A, however, often experience restoration of juvenile/pubertal hairlines that are astounding in terms of cosmetic improvement.
In terms of goals, then, these two groups appear to have little or nothing in common. Many males find Tom Selleck-type hair without loss in the crown to be all that they want and the ability to grow their hair long appears not particularly important. Group A, however, finds these type of male improvements in coverage to be all but useless and cosmetically unacceptable. AntyDHTor had results that many, many folks on here have mentioned as being excellent; I find his "results" to be simply horrible. He looks far less attractive in his after pictures and his hairline is way, way too low. Coverage for the sake of coverage is pretty meh from my point of view.
So is there any way to bring these two groups together or are we wasting each other's time? I tend to browse rapidly the comments except for @bridgeburn because the no-gyno at all costs folks appear to never report back with anything remotely cosmetically significant; they appear to suffer incessantly from sides that MtFs don't seem to encounter and they whine a lot. I have tried something similar to the avoid-gyno approach and it simply went nowhere. Among caucasians, XX hair and XY hair are so fundamentally different that for me, with respect to XY improvements, meh. I maintained for decades on minoxidil/finasteride but it still was crappy hair that wouldn't grow long and that the wind destroyed. I never ever saw any regrowth but since my thinning is diffuse, that could be why but my expectations are far higher in terms of what my erstwhile locks look like.
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