Do Non-responders Just Have Really High Dht ?

[afferd]

I am still losing ground after being seriously on finasteride for 1yr now (1.25mg/day)
also recently introduced 1-2 dutasteride /week

My DHT levels range between 4000 - 6500 pmol/L
normal range is considered to be 850 - 3400 pmol/L

So my question is:

Do non-responders just have really high DHT ?​

And if we simply increased the dosage of dutasteride (up to it's peak on DHT inhibition curve)
Or used stronger drugs, e.g. oral spyro then eventually we'd bring down our DHT to a "safe" level
not suggesting anyone takes oral spyro - I realize what it is

Finally, are there any studies that specifically measure if non-responders have very high DHT?
And if so what level should we be aiming to reduce our DHT to in order to become responders?

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

As far as I know we know nothing -- NOTHING -- about who responds well to finasteride and who doesn't, who gets sides and who doesn't.

 

[afferd]

@David_MPN - I didn't think there was any specific research as I couldn't find any.

But even anecdotal evidence from the community, if all non-responders with DHT blood test results, told me they too had mega high DHT then I think it would show something.

 

[buckthorn]

I am still losing ground after being seriously on finasteride for 1yr now (1.25mg/day)
also recently introduced 1-2 dutasteride /week

My DHT levels range between 4000 - 6500 pmol/L
normal range is considered to be 850 - 3400 pmol/L

So my question is:

Do non-responders just have really high DHT ?​

And if we simply increased the dosage of dutasteride (up to it's peak on DHT inhibition curve)
Or used stronger drugs, e.g. oral spyro then eventually we'd bring down our DHT to a "safe" level
not suggesting anyone takes oral spyro - I realize what it is

Finally, are there any studies that specifically measure if non-responders have very high DHT?
And if so what level should we be aiming to reduce our DHT to in order to become responders?

nope. finasteride dropped my DHT to the very, very bottom of the scale, and I just lost hair like a chemo patient. Like David said, there is no REAL science to this, just quaked out theories and stories. If finasteride isn't working, just dump it and move on. IMO, the pill actually does NOT work for most people.

 

[afferd]

@buckthorn - do you remember what your DHT test results were before taking finasteride, during, and after you stopped?

 

[DoctorHouse]

I am still losing ground after being seriously on finasteride for 1yr now (1.25mg/day)
also recently introduced 1-2 dutasteride /week

My DHT levels range between 4000 - 6500 pmol/L
normal range is considered to be 850 - 3400 pmol/L

So my question is:

Do non-responders just have really high DHT ?​

And if we simply increased the dosage of dutasteride (up to it's peak on DHT inhibition curve)
Or used stronger drugs, e.g. oral spyro then eventually we'd bring down our DHT to a "safe" level
not suggesting anyone takes oral spyro - I realize what it is

Finally, are there any studies that specifically measure if non-responders have very high DHT?
And if so what level should we be aiming to reduce our DHT to in order to become responders?

I think non responders just have very androgen sensitive receptors and there may be auto immune factors affecting you as well. I have never responded well to finasteride. Too bad there is no way to block each receptor cell 100 per cent from DHT without any side effects.

 

[michel sapin]

no man .i am a non responder but propecia has decreased my dht level to prebuberty boy level . But still losing hair .

 

[afferd]

Purely from my own personal experience, I think finasteride affects libido more when you're younger (perhaps because DHT is lower at that age, and so reducing it further has more of an impact).

I'm nearly 35 and married so changes in libido aren't as worrying and can't say I've noticed a significant change.

@Dante92 - do you mind if I ask how old you are?

 

[Cody1212]

Who knows? Used finasteride for 15 years or so and it would be eefctive for a few months then I would switch to dutas, dr bauman suggested that but who the hell knows...some just don't respond to finasteride.

I still firmly believe, that no matter who you are on a long enough timeline finasteride will produce nasty side effects!

 

[DoctorHouse]

Who knows? Used finasteride for 15 years or so and it would be eefctive for a few months then I would switch to dutas, dr bauman suggested that but who the hell knows...some just don't respond to finasteride.

I still firmly believe, that no matter who you are on a long enough timeline finasteride will produce nasty side effects!

Has Bauman seen cases where dutasteride improves hair for previous long term finasteride users? Is he your doctor?

 

[sunchyme1]

I totally agree. And it did the same to me: destroyed my libido, but did NOTHING for my hair.

bullshit

weve seen youve mantained with it.

 

[Cody1212]

I live in south Florida near bauman and did laser with him some 10 plus years ago, he used to say finasteride could lose effectiveness and would prescribe avodart...I tried alternating them over the years.

Got so fucked up from it at 37 years old that I got off for the last two years and did lose ground...it's amazing that the sh*t does work differently for everyone but as I was still losing ground on the temples, finasteride did keep density to crown and vertex. I just could no longer function on finasteride and had to come off....lost a lot of good years bc of that drug.

Interesting read; https://www.statnews.com/2017/03/01/trump-propecia/

 

[DoctorHouse]

I live in south Florida near bauman and did laser with him some 10 plus years ago, he used to say finasteride could lose effectiveness and would prescribe avodart...I tried alternating them over the years.

Got so fucked up from it at 37 years old that I got off for the last two years and did lose ground...it's amazing that the sh*t does work differently for everyone but as I was still losing ground on the temples, finasteride did keep density to crown and vertex. I just could no longer function on finasteride and had to come off....lost a lot of good years bc of that drug.

Interesting read; https://www.statnews.com/2017/03/01/trump-propecia/

Cody, I truly believe as you get older and have been on finasteride long term, you still are going to lose ground due to age. As you hair ages, the diameter gets smaller so your density will decrease. If you have fine hair, you have the worst case scenario.

 

[afferd]

I'm 24, why?

I kind of guessed you might be younger from your comment about libido

It becomes less of an issue as you get older and settle down

destroyed my libido, but did NOTHING for my hair

Are you still on finasteride 1.25mg /day?​

 

[hairblues]

no man .i am a non responder but propecia has decreased my dht level to prebuberty boy level . But still losing hair .

I cant remember what it is called but there is something else beside DHT they talk about with women and hair loss in scalp (not iron although that too) it starts with an A i think...but i always wondered if THAT fucks up womens hair--why would it not be a possible cause for mens hair loss as well.
Sorry i cant think of what it was in more detail but it was something also genetic and i think it was hormonal.
It was to explain why some women don't respond to spironolactone (our anti DHT oral med).

Also there is some argument about a hybrid of male hair loss and Areata...I read a derma pathologist from Australia paper on it..its been quoted in medical text books also as a possible cause--BUT no one has done studies on it.

It's so frustrating how medical community does not do more studies on hair loss.
Its like where is the medical curiosity even?

 

[Switzer]

It would seem that people who take finasteride with higher DHT levels at baseline are better responders to the treatment:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18363752

High levels of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone in patients<or=26 years at the beginning of treatment are a predictive factor of good response to treatment with finasteride 1 mg daily.

Also, this study suggests that people with more overall body hair responds better to finasteride:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969676/

According to our results, finasteride seems to be more effective in patients who feel that they are pileous (Group A). One possible explanation would be that finasteride is more effective for patients who are under a stronger influence of androgen.

As for myself, I don't have a lot of body hair and I continue to lose my hair after 1,5 years on finasteride.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I cant remember what it is called but there is something else beside DHT they talk about with women and hair loss in scalp (not iron although that too) it starts with an A i think...but i always wondered if THAT fucks up womens hair--why would it not be a possible cause for mens hair loss as well.
Sorry i cant think of what it was in more detail but it was something also genetic and i think it was hormonal.
It was to explain why some women don't respond to spironolactone (our anti DHT oral med).

Also there is some argument about a hybrid of male hair loss and Areata...I read a derma pathologist from Australia paper on it..its been quoted in medical text books also as a possible cause--BUT no one has done studies on it.

It's so frustrating how medical community does not do more studies on hair loss.
Its like where is the medical curiosity even?

One thing I'd be curious about, if I were a researcher in the area, would be mapping of the different hair loss patterns and how they correlate to other things. The different patterns I'm aware of are crown recession, temple recession, diffuse thinning, hairline recession, and female pattern hair loss. I'm not sure but perhas diffuse thinning and female pattern hair loss are the same thing.

Either way it is weird that there are so many patterns, yet so few. Out of my 7 first cousins who are men and whom I've met, one of those has more or less the same pattern I do, the others have different patterns or are not balding. We also have the same body type.

 

[jetlife1]

Cody, I truly believe as you get older and have been on finasteride long term, you still are going to lose ground due to age. As you hair ages, the diameter gets smaller so your density will decrease. If you have fine hair, you have the worst case scenario.

Doctor, unless you have been on finasteride 1mg daily for long term without any breaks and have dropped below baseline then I'm afraid these claims are unsubstantiated. My highly respected doctor in the NYC area who prescribed it to me said this is not the case for his hundreds of patients. Also, the finasteride 5 year and 10 year medical studies also don't show that you will lose ground (at least the vast majority.) Only 10% and 7% dropped below baseline respectively, and it's not like this minority of men went bald. They might have dropped a norwood level or two.

I am quite confused as to why some people on this forum believe this is the case. Maybe a patient's hair will get a bit thinner due to age related thinning while on the drug, but this won't happen until you're an old man if it happens at all. It's not like you're going to go completely bald in areas that you would had you never taken the drug.

Anyway, why should I take the time to argue with some of you guys on this forum? I have a full head of teenage thick hair because of the drug. Best of luck guys.

 

[Roberto_72]

I am still losing ground after being seriously on finasteride for 1yr now (1.25mg/day)
also recently introduced 1-2 dutasteride /week

My DHT levels range between 4000 - 6500 pmol/L
normal range is considered to be 850 - 3400 pmol/L

So my question is:

Do non-responders just have really high DHT ?​

And if we simply increased the dosage of dutasteride (up to it's peak on DHT inhibition curve)
Or used stronger drugs, e.g. oral spyro then eventually we'd bring down our DHT to a "safe" level
not suggesting anyone takes oral spyro - I realize what it is

Finally, are there any studies that specifically measure if non-responders have very high DHT?
And if so what level should we be aiming to reduce our DHT to in order to become responders?

I have 438 and it kind of works for me, but I cannot say if the things are linked.

 

[michel sapin]

i am sure that guy with high baseline dht level and a lot of body hair are better responder .
ME i had low baseline dht and literraly 0 body hair . i started at 21 .