Do Non-responders Just Have Really High Dht ?

[michel sapin]

yes i know this is crazy, that my body " accepts " the propecia , my dht is f*****g low , like a child . But i keep losing my hair . I am sure that duta would help , but my sides would be insane .

 

[afferd]

@michel sapin - you could just start 1 dutasteride/week - that's what I did.

How old are you?

 

[michel sapin]

i am 23 . i am considering it , i have the script for 1 year now but still afraid . I tried 5 mg propecia instead but i got slight gyno so i stopped . dutasteride would drop my DHT 20 % more than 5 mg finasteride , so i would have even more gyno and sides .

 

[afferd]

I'm no doctor, but I think if your DHT is that low then maybe you're right. I didn't mind starting once a week with such high DHT.

So if it's not DHT - what do you think is causing your hairloss?

What type of balding are you?

 

[afferd]

My DHT was 12 on a reference range of 13-67, don't remember the unit measurements. I only experienced accelerated hairloss/miniaturization all over my head.

My guess is your results are:

1200 pmol/L on a reference range of 1300 to 6700 pmol/L​

What country do you live in (for the reference range)?

And is there any way you check your units?

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

My DHT was 1.0 on a reference range of 0.40 to 2.5.
Units: nmol/l

Equivalent to 1000 pmol/litre.

 

[Samson123]

My guess is your results are:

1200 pmol/L on a reference range of 1300 to 6700 pmol/L​

What country do you live in (for the reference range)?

And is there any way you check your units?

I'll have to find the results. I know for sure the numbers were as I wrote in my earlier post.

I live in the US. Every reference range for DHT I've ever seen has been different.

 

[afferd]

@Samson123 - thanks, I'll add you to my table

@David_MPN - is that reference range for Australia? And is it before or after starting any meds?

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

@David_MPN - is that reference range for Australia? And is it before or after starting any meds?

Yes, I was a 32 year old male in Australia at the time, and not on meds.

I had tried finasteride before, for a month. I think it was helping me actually, only side was reduced sleep. However, I had ED since before the finasteride, so i decided not to risk exacerbated ED and got off the finasteride.

 

[jetlife1]

Just in case you guys don't know, total DHT levels are not always going to reflect how you respond to the drug. Finasteride solely blocks 5AR2 DHT which is responsible for hair loss. This leaves 5AR1 and 5AR3 DHT that are thought to play no role in hair loss. 5AR1 and 5AR3 DHT make up the remaining DHT levels when taking finasteride and are why your DHT levels are not at 0. This is because only 5AR2 DHT is located at the dermal papilla of the hair follicle.

Once again this is only an informative post for people that didn't know this.

 

[Samson123]

I found the results, 12 and I was a little off on the reference range, 16-79. The units are ng/dL.

 

[afferd]

@Samson123 - thanks I'll update the table later.

@jetlife1 - I actually didn't know about 5AR-3 until you mentioned it, seems like it was only recently discovered (2011).

Do you know what the percentage make up is of 1, 2 & 3 in the blood (which is how we all get our DHT tests)?

And how much does it vary from one person to another? Can't find much on the matter...

E.g. perhaps I have crazy high 5AR-3 which makes my DHT result seem astronomical, when in actual fact the thing I care about is my 5AR-2 levels, which may be lower because I'm on finasteride/dutasteride.

 

[michel sapin]

i am 100 % sure that dht level have nothing to do with your response to propecia .
The important thing is that propecia inhibit 85 % of 5 ar -2 in teh derma papilla ( 90 % with 5 mg ).
And dutasteride inhibit 98 % . and for the non responder that makes a difference .
HOWEVER the serum dht is important to know if you will have side effects or not .
those with low baseline dht will have more sides . less dht = more oestrogen .

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

i am 100 % sure that dht level have nothing to do with your response to propecia .
The important thing is that propecia inhibit 85 % of 5 ar -2 in teh derma papilla ( 90 % with 5 mg ).
And dutasteride inhibit 98 % . and for the non responder that makes a difference .
HOWEVER the serum dht is important to know if you will have side effects or not .
those with low baseline dht will have more sides . less dht = more oestrogen .

There's also the other hormones that propecia inhibits. Propecia doesn't just target DHT, it targets a whole bunch of stuff.

 

[michel sapin]

Sure , and to realize you have sides , you just have to quit it for a period of time and you feel a 100% times better .
Unfortunately this is the only solution nowadays

 

[g.i joey]

There's also the other hormones that propecia inhibits. Propecia doesn't just target DHT, it targets a whole bunch of stuff.

agreed, but if you look up symptoms of high estrogen in men it is exactly propecia sides, to the t.

I think when people mention erection quality declining this mean their testo:estro ratio is sh*t and out of whack.

 

[michel sapin]

you are 100 % right all the sides are due to the higher oestrogen .
unfortunately the more you inhibit dht , the more oestrogen you get

 

[michel sapin]

and to answer afferd ; in fact propecia work better for older patient with higher norwood . look at the 10 years rossi study .
youger patient with Norwood 3 and less will have way less result than older patient ( > 30 with the same norwood or more advanced norwood)

 

[jetlife1]

@Samson123 - thanks I'll update the table later.

@jetlife1 - I actually didn't know about 5AR-3 until you mentioned it, seems like it was only recently discovered (2011).

Do you know what the percentage make up is of 1, 2 & 3 in the blood (which is how we all get our DHT tests)?

And how much does it vary from one person to another? Can't find much on the matter...

E.g. perhaps I have crazy high 5AR-3 which makes my DHT result seem astronomical, when in actual fact the thing I care about is my 5AR-2 levels, which may be lower because I'm on finasteride/dutasteride.

5AR 1, 2, and 3 levels are most likely going to vary from person to person, but I don't know how much. I'm not sure what tests can be done to see the individual levels, but there must be some way to find out. Maybe there is a way that you can test what your DHT levels are in your dermal papilla? They're most likely going to be extremely close to zero.

i am 100 % sure that dht level have nothing to do with your response to propecia .
The important thing is that propecia inhibit 85 % of 5 ar -2 in teh derma papilla ( 90 % with 5 mg ).
And dutasteride inhibit 98 % . and for the non responder that makes a difference .
HOWEVER the serum dht is important to know if you will have side effects or not .
those with low baseline dht will have more sides . less dht = more oestrogen .

85-90% after how many doses, just one? I think when you use finasteride consistently long term, it really builds up in your system. Therefore, this might be broscience, but it may completely or very very close to completely stop 5AR2 production.

and to answer afferd ; in fact propecia work better for older patient with higher norwood . look at the 10 years rossi study .
youger patient with Norwood 3 and less will have way less result than older patient ( > 30 with the same norwood or more advanced norwood)

This is debatable. Overall, after 10 years, only 7 people dropped below baseline and out of those 7 only 1 was significantly worse than baseline. 10 years is a long time. I think it is effective for all ages.

 

[michel sapin]

i am not sure for the non responder . i think that if you have aggressive gene and don't respond during the first year of treatment you can lose way more than 1 nrowood in 5 years