Did anybody try Laser device with any sort of success?

[hellseher]

Most salesmen think, they are clever. But there are intelligent people almost in every corner.

 

[losing hair]

Most salesmen think, they are clever. But there are intelligent people almost in every corner.

Hey Mr. Junior Member - you missed an important fact - that I don't sell anything - just read a bit into the past........ are you the new breed of the "protectors of this Forum"?
And as a matter of fact - you are wrong - vast majority of people are quite dumb..this is a sad fact of life...there are only "so many corners" - it is not enough space to account for clever people...you may consider yourself lucky you are not one of them - or are you just trying to suck up to senior members?

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And where are the reviews by people using the device you advertise? I don't mean fake user statements on the websites actually selling these kinds of devices, but by forum users who didnt just register when posting their "experience".

This is exactly the reason I started this thread - I wanted to see these experiences to make my own judgement - and I see none so far...BUT - if it was such a BIG failure as you all esteemed "Protectors of this Forum" repeat times and times again - there would be tons of bad experiences, wouldn't they? - and you know what? - there are NONE just as well.....

just btw. - I was NOT posting any LLLT experience of mine - because I have none.... But I am considering......

as for the link to LLLT studies - I will compile a few of them in a few days - I have life too.........

 

[benjt]

This is exactly the reason I started this thread - I wanted to see these experiences to make my own judgement - and I see none so far...BUT - if it was such a BIG failure as you all esteemed "Protectors of this Forum" repeat times and times again - there would be tons of bad experiences, wouldn't they? - and you know what? - there are NONE just as well.....

Guess why - for a lack of a scientific basis. Nobody wants to buy stuff based on "hey, this works! we dont have any proof that our expensive-as-sh1t product works, but buy it anyway!". And regarding your claim that the "guardians of this forum", whoever that is supposed to be, only support the big 3: If they did, why do you think they're here? They're here to discuss viable treatments which are not among the big 3, such as natural 5ar inhibitors, anti-PGD2 agents and the like. These substances have one thing in common: they are very well supported by scientific evidence. Unlike the laser stuff.

If I claimed tomorrow that ultrasonic can regrow hair and built such a device, would you buy it? And if no, why?
(This question, by the way, is not rhethorical).

as for the link to LLLT studies - I will compile a few of them in a few days - I have life too.........

How convenient. I'm betting there wont be any. You are not the first on these forums to claim "yeah, there are studies!" and when asked for them to give an excuse not to provide them. Most notably, the last ones to do so were the salesmen.

 

[losing hair]

Guess why - for a lack of a scientific basis. Nobody wants to buy stuff based on "hey, this works! we dont have any proof that our expensive-as-sh1t product works, but buy it anyway!". And regarding your claim that the "guardians of this forum", whoever that is supposed to be, only support the big 3: If they did, why do you think they're here? They're here to discuss viable treatments which are not among the big 3, such as natural 5ar inhibitors, anti-PGD2 agents and the like. These substances have one thing in common: they are very well supported by scientific evidence. Unlike the laser stuff.

If I claimed tomorrow that ultrasonic can regrow hair and built such a device, would you buy it? And if no, why?
(This question, by the way, is not rhethorical).


How convenient. I'm betting there wont be any. You are not the first on these forums to claim "yeah, there are studies!" and when asked for them to give an excuse not to provide them. Most notably, the last ones to do so were the salesmen.

You already included yourself in the "Guardians of this forum"...you may support alternative treatments for hair loss but you slam what you deem not viable (or can't grasp the concept of) - and this is exactly where the problem is - you want to shut down alternatives even before they are proven to work...
You say: ""proof that our expensive-as-sh1t product works, but buy it anyway"" - did you mean the laser comb sold for $500 (Auch) on this website you so much protect?? Are you Admin? Or are you part of his sales group?

And guess what - there indeed HAVE BEEN numerous studies on LLLT, they may not be exactly conclusive to you, but they may be conclusive enough for others to try it out...OF COURSE, I don't mean buying the laser comb sold on this web site - even if it is FDA APPROVED - how can FDA approve something that is not working??
Do you see the "conflict"? You will see even more in the links I give below that :

FDA approved finasteride and minoxidil as the only 2 treatments to Products that are not FDA approved or recommended by The American Hair Loss Association do not meet quality standards for hair loss treatments. To date, only two treatments are clinically proven: Finasteride (Proscar/Propecia) and Minoxidil.

BUT
- January 2007--Boca Raton, FL
This month, the FDA gave 'clearance' for the first Low Level Laser Therapy device for the treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia (male pattern hair loss).
What do you say to this?
Can't you Google yourself? It took me 5 minutes to find this ......

I'll be on a 12 hour flight tomorrow (because I have life) so you have plenty of time to read the links below....

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lsm.1900090103/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lsm.1900160404/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366270?dopt=Abstract


Happy reading

BTW, I don't intend to educate the esteemed members / Guardians of this forum - I want the "lurkers" - (as you call them) to know that THERE IS an alternative to "BIG 3" and other / your products sold on this website- not only stupid laser comb for $500.
Even rogain - the worst of its kind - can be found on eBay for half price...

So who is a salesman here - I wonder??

 

[Python]

You already included yourself in the "Guardians of this forum"...you may support alternative treatments for hair loss but you slam what you deem not viable (or can't grasp the concept of) - and this is exactly where the problem is - you want to shut down alternatives even before they are proven to work...
You say: ""proof that our expensive-as-sh1t product works, but buy it anyway"" - did you mean the laser comb sold for $500 (Auch) on this website you so much protect?? Are you Admin? Or are you part of his sales group?

And guess what - there indeed HAVE BEEN numerous studies on LLLT, they may not be exactly conclusive to you, but they may be conclusive enough for others to try it out...OF COURSE, I don't mean buying the laser comb sold on this web site - even if it is FDA APPROVED - how can FDA approve something that is not working??
Do you see the "conflict"? You will see even more in the links I give below that :

FDA approved finasteride and minoxidil as the only 2 treatments to Products that are not FDA approved or recommended by The American Hair Loss Association do not meet quality standards for hair loss treatments. To date, only two treatments are clinically proven: Finasteride (Proscar/Propecia) and Minoxidil.

BUT
- January 2007--Boca Raton, FL
This month, the FDA gave 'clearance' for the first Low Level Laser Therapy device for the treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia (male pattern hair loss).
What do you say to this?
Can't you Google yourself? It took me 5 minutes to find this ......

I'll be on a 12 hour flight tomorrow (because I have life) so you have plenty of time to read the links below....

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lsm.1900090103/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lsm.1900160404/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366270?dopt=Abstract


Happy reading

BTW, I don't intend to educate the esteemed members / Guardians of this forum - I want the "lurkers" - (as you call them) to know that THERE IS an alternative to "BIG 3" and other / your products sold on this website- not only stupid laser comb for $500.
Even rogain - the worst of its kind - can be found on eBay for half price...

So who is a salesman here - I wonder??

Oh just shut the fvck up already, nobody cares about you and your dumb lasers. You can shub them up your ***, we all know you're one of the laser salesmen from before, we can see it a mile away. As far as the lasers on this site, so what, it's their site, you really think we are going to tell them what they can't and can put in their website? You're just flat out crazy

 

[Notcoolanymore]

So I guess I am the only one trying this stuff haha

 

[benjt]

but you slam what you deem not viable (or can't grasp the concept of) - and this is exactly where the problem is - you want to shut down alternatives even before they are proven to work...

Oh, so lets all rub our scalps with poo! It's not proven to work, but hey - we wouldnt want to slam the door on alternatives even before they are proven to work, would we?


Regarding "grasping the concept": According to the studies you yourself cited, nobody does including the scientists - because there is none. Citing one of the papers you yourself posted:

none of the available studies address the mechanism, whether photothermal, photochemical, or photomechanical, whereby LLLT may be exerting its effect

So, if no available study manages to explain it, what is the concept? Apparently you grasp it, I admit to fail at doing so, as do the scientists examining it. Please explain it to me!

And guess what - there indeed HAVE BEEN numerous studies on LLLT. [...]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lsm.1900090103/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lsm.1900160404/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366270?dopt=Abstract

You should have really read the studies that you posted... I'm just going to cite a few sentences from them:

The fundamental question is whether there is sufficient evidence to support the use of LLLT. [...]
In humans, beneficial effects [...] have not been replicated in larger studies.
[...]
effectiveness is arguable, and FDA approval has not been granted for any indication.
[...]
work in all these areas suffered from flawed methodology, incomplete discription, limited blinding, and nonexistant controls.
[...]
although laboratory findings seem authentic, clinical utility remains unestablished.

Awesome job at finding studies that contradict your own position and at the same time pointing out that even literature has no indication of a consistent concept of laser devices to grasp. So if you got super cool knowledge on the concept how LLLT works, if even research literature doesn't, it would super if you could share it! You would enlighten us and researchers alike!

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So I guess I am the only one trying this stuff haha

Just continue and document. I'd be surprised if there were any effect (s. literature that can't establish any effectiveness which losing_hair himself just posted) but if it's well documented, no matter the outcome, it's a useful result. Hell, if you report anything, even I'll buy one and make sure that documentation is as thorough as possible, with a fixed setup for that.

 

[Armando Jose]

Yes - any frequency can do anything when applied with enough power - 100W could "remove" your head for example.. and as for your quote "EM is infinite and therefore 100nm is minor difference" - even human stupidity is infinite.........
e.g. 10 units in IQ scale usually results in great difference.....

650 nm has been proven in numerous studies to be the ideal wavelength for cell regeneration. You can use a 700-800nm at 5mW power and it will not remove any hair for example. Your hint was correct. Hair removal technology uses well over 200mW of power to remove hair. Laser for acne treatment uses a blue spectrum light and that is of similar difference concerning nm...

So it comes down to using the most effective wavelength at the right power output to achieve the desired goal. In the case of LLLT, 650nm at an output range of 5-20mW is ideal for hair regrowth. I am still waiting for those hundreds of thousands of LLLT users who bought the stupid laser combs (maybe even from this very website) to come up with their damning experiences.... I so far see none - DO YOU? Guardians of this forum?

In the case of LLLT, 650nm at an output range of 5-20mW is ideal for hair regrowth
do you refer per cm2??



jeje Benjt La vida es una tómbola

 

[benjt]

More important than the question of dosage is what this claim of 650nm at 5-20mW being most beneficial (if at all, which it probably isnt anyway) is based on. I asked him for a source, but - of course - he didn't provide one.

"La vida es una tombola" es una cancion muy bonita de Manu Chao. Y es la verdad. Listen to it in case you don't know it.

 

[losing hair]

In the case of LLLT, 650nm at an output range of 5-20mW is ideal for hair regrowth
do you refer per cm2??



jeje Benjt La vida es una tómbola

I'm on a 12 hour flight tomorrow so I can't respond in more details, but there have been studies to recommend the "amount of energy" in Joules that is the most beneficial/effective to activate/stimulate the cells appears to be for some reason 4J/cm2 - and 650nm wavelength (thanks Guardians for "correcting" me) just showed the cells respond to it more than to others...or respond only to 650nm......
This cell stimulation can be achieved with 5mW laser diodes - 1 laser diode per cm2 for 20 minutes - or as the laser clinics around the World do with fewer 18mW diodes - achieving similar density flux. This is physics - maybe a bit higher than high school physics as one of the Guardians mentioned before - it just might just get a bit above your "rank"?

I don't think FDA would approve "a JOKE" - it could backfire - and maybe I am wrong - and they do approve jokes, what do you think??

I repeat I am not selling any product - I am trying to get feedback from thousands of men who bought these LLLT devices - including the joke laser comb sold on this website for $500... - DO NOT BUY IT, IT IS A JOKE - APPROVED BY FDA..??

Well, Guardians of this Forum - you may wish this LLLT thread to be dead - but most amusing reading is provided by you.....at least I have a great time reading it...it actually is quite addictive - I must restrain myself from logging in every day - like you do....have life - go out, talk to people, you might get better...
You might have been on finasteride for far too Long - it has sides just in case you don't know - apart from Erectile Disfunction and/or inability to have SEX - it also may give you a brain fog....where did I read about it??

I'll be looking forward to your response - I can't wait - all those 12 hours without the internet...... Auch...auch

 

[Vlatch]

This study (posted several days ago on this very forum) looks damn good to me : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24474647/?i=2&from=/19366270/related

A 20 hair/ cm2 increase in hair count after 26 weeks may not seem much to you but it's as much as 0.5mg of dutasteride after 24 weeks (100 hair in an inch wide circle = 20 hair/ cm2).

It may not be a sufficient stand-alone treatment because it doesn't reduce DHT but if this study isn't complete bullcrap, it seems like a good addition to a treatment.

 

[mlb]

This study (posted several days ago on this very forum) looks damn good to me : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24474647/?i=2&from=/19366270/related

A 20 hair/ cm2 increase in hair count after 26 weeks may not seem much to you but it's as much as 0.5mg of dutasteride after 24 weeks (100 hair in an inch wide circle = 20 hair/ cm2).

It may not be a sufficient stand-alone treatment because it doesn't reduce DHT but if this study isn't complete bullcrap, it seems like a good addition to a treatment.

I have to agree, looks like a very well-designed study with a reputable team behind it and blinded!. Not sure how the laser detractors simply ignore it...

 

[benjt]

Well, Guardians of this Forum - you may wish this LLLT thread to be dead - but most amusing reading is provided by you.....

I don't wish this thread to be dead, I just wish there was less bullsh1t statements from your side and more actual facts. You just make claims without any backing in science or research.

• You have been asked to provide source proving that there is any indication that LLLT is beneficial for treatment of hairloss. Out of the 4 sources you provided, 3 clearly state that there is no substantial indication of positive effects of LLLT and that previous studies were found to be inherently flawed in methodology.
• You have repeatedly been asked to explain why "650 nm" is the most beneficial, which you claim over and over again. No source provided by you. This also makes it obvious that you try to advertise, as there are other products operating at other wavelengths - these, however, according to you are not as effective, even though you fail to provide any backing to that statement whatsoever.
• The only device which has any backing in research, as mentioned by Vlatch, is a laser comb - which you condemn. So the only device with any scientifically reported efficacy and FDA approval is, according to you, a "con". People should, in your opinion, buy instead products only at a very specific wavelength even though you can't explain why that wavelength is in any way better than others. Quite convincing! Do you really think anybody is that stupid?

 

[Notcoolanymore]

I have received a few messages from you guys asking for an update and pics. I started using laser around July 7th. So in a couple of weeks it will be 3 months so I think that will be a good time to let you guys know how things are going. I did take before pics so in a couple of weeks I will take pics at the same angle and lighting and compare. If I see any noticeable difference, then I will post up pics, if not then I will let you know and there will be no reason to post up pics. Honestly I really don't know if it is working or not. Some days I look at my hair and think that I can see a difference, other days it looks like crap. But I pretty much look at my hair every time I am near a mirror so maybe I am not noticing subtle changes.

 

[benjt]

That's what you need the photos for. Noticing gradual changes in oneself is almost impossible, so you need to take photos regularly even when you dont notice any change yourself. This is really important if your own trials are supposed to work out: take frequent photos in constant light and constant settings. If your camera supports storing custom fixed presets (fixed ISO, aperture compensation, etc.) it would be really great if you made such a preset. So many photo proofs on the net are worthless because of lighting.

 

[Notcoolanymore]

I will do my best with the photos. Hopefully they will show an improvement.

 

[Python]

I will do my best with the photos. Hopefully they will show an improvement.

Regardless of what everything I have said, you are our best bet of the truth in this, Notcoolanymore. And I also apologize if I have offended you, you know it's all hair loss drama .

 

[Notcoolanymore]

Regardless of what everything I have said, you are our best bet of the truth in this, Notcoolanymore. And I also apologize if I have offended you, you know it's all hair loss drama .

No need to apologize, you are just trying to keep yourself and others from getting ripped off. Your intentions are good so I really have no problem with any skepticism.

 

[benjt]

The thing I forgot to mention about the photos is also that it allows other people to judge and confirm (!) for themselves. So even posting photos w/o progress is really valuable: People can check the photos themselves and without potential misinterpretation from your side can make conclusions for themselves. Also, others might notice things you don't. So if you got the time, post the photos you already took. Maybe somebody sees something you didn't.

 

[uncomfortable man]

* Honestly I really don't know if it is working or not. Some days I look at my hair and think that I can see a difference, other days it looks like crap. But I pretty much look at my hair every time I am near a mirror so maybe I am not noticing subtle changes.

Placeeeeeboooooo!