Why The Galea Is The Fundamental Cause Of Male Pattern Balding (& Androgens Are Secondary)

[IdealForehead]

Left set of photos, on the right.

Is that u after hooking up on oral minoxidil? If u notice, your face is rounder- that's an effect of minoxidil. Also, u said u have higher 'androgen levels'- have u tested for PCOS before? I know about this cos my ex had PCOS(not the reason why we parted ways) and her dad, younger and older brothers were all balding, while she herself- was overweight and had a greasy scalp in addition to diffused hair loss. Her room was full of her hair everywhere(i knew they were hers and not mine cos they were very long). Women with PCOS are either too thin or fat- they are never 'just nice'. She probably inherited it from her mum who was overweight too.

She also confided in me that she would have a hard time conceiving.

She doesn't have PCOS. She has premature ovarian failure (premature menopause).

 

[Armando Jose]

What it does not explain for me is facial and body hair loss.

Scalp hair is more evolved than body hair, more dependent from hormones in blood.

You might be following the ludwig pattern just because those hairs are the weakest to begin

My idea is that these hairs are mpre isolated/independents don´t touching among them.

@IdealForehead is eyebrow hair loss in men because of androgenetic alopecia/DHT?

Eyelash, eyebrowns and hair in noses and ears are the third type of human hairs. Scalp hairs have asynhronia, not all mamifers have it.

men and women were exposed to a painful experience and thereafter hair was dissected and examined for cortisol levels (both before and after). It showed the immediate change in cortisol levels in response to the stressful encounter. They did the same thing with women during their 4 week cycle, showing how estrogens inside the follicle fluctuated. What I mean to say is that I’ve many factors here which align with disruption of healthy, normal hair cycling.

There is any publication in this issue?

Androgens may play a bigger role in messaging for that follicular destruction in men because we have more androgens to begin with. While in women, other pathways that are activated may play a bigger role

The important hormones (androgens/estrogens for hair cycle in scalp hairs are made inside the pilosebacous unit

Old damage and catagen signalling won't turn around overnight even if you fix the underlying issue

Really, I am with you, common hair loss is slow but inexorable process, more irreversible passing the time.

I know I say this over and over but it's because I believe it

Good for you, me too.

That's also a good sign

sproutimg news hairs are a good pronostic, even they are fine.

You have to remember that estrogens/progesterones work differently for men and women. Often men will have amazing results whilst women don’t. Our hairloss is quite different.

IMHO scalp hair is not very different between sexes. Only the lenght of them is clearly different

 

[inmyhead]

Scalp hair is more evolved than body hair, more dependent from hormones in blood.

My idea is that these hairs are mpre isolated/independents don´t touching among them.

Eyelash, eyebrowns and hair in noses and ears are the third type of human hairs. Scalp hairs have asynhronia, not all mamifers have it.


There is any publication in this issue?


The important hormones (androgens/estrogens for hair cycle in scalp hairs are made inside the pilosebacous unit


Really, I am with you, common hair loss is slow but inexorable process, more irreversible passing the time.


Good for you, me too.


sproutimg news hairs are a good pronostic, even they are fine.


IMHO scalp hair is not very different between sexes. Only the lenght of them is clearly different

So you mean just because men cut their hair their hair is shorter then women'? wtf

 

[Armando Jose]

So you mean just because men cut their hair their hair is shorter then women'? wtf

Why don´t? Have you any idea to refute it?

It is not a new idea although

 

[Georgie]

Left set of photos, on the right.

Is that u after hooking up on oral minoxidil? If u notice, your face is rounder- that's an effect of minoxidil. Also, u said u have higher 'androgen levels'- have u tested for PCOS before? I know about this cos my ex had PCOS(not the reason why we parted ways) and her dad, younger and older brothers were all balding, while she herself- was overweight and had a greasy scalp in addition to diffused hair loss. Her room was full of her hair everywhere(i knew they were hers and not mine cos they were very long). Women with PCOS are either too thin or fat- they are never 'just nice'. She probably inherited it from her mum who was overweight too.

She also confided in me that she would have a hard time conceiving.

Left was after oral minoxidil. Right was yesterday. Still on it. I know that facial bloating is a side, I’ve talked about this. I don’t have PCOS. I’ve also talked extensively about my diagnosis.

 

[Georgie]

Scalp hair is more evolved than body hair, more dependent from hormones in blood.

My idea is that these hairs are mpre isolated/independents don´t touching among them.

Eyelash, eyebrowns and hair in noses and ears are the third type of human hairs. Scalp hairs have asynhronia, not all mamifers have it.


There is any publication in this issue?


The important hormones (androgens/estrogens for hair cycle in scalp hairs are made inside the pilosebacous unit


Really, I am with you, common hair loss is slow but inexorable process, more irreversible passing the time.


Good for you, me too.


sproutimg news hairs are a good pronostic, even they are fine.


IMHO scalp hair is not very different between sexes. Only the lenght of them is clearly different

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3381079/

Ito and colleagues (2005) presented data showing that the hair follicle contained a complete HPA-like system, producing CRH, ACTH and cortisol with no necessary connection to the overall blood supply (and thence by-passing the HPA axis), confirming an original hypothesis that the skin represents an equivalent ‘peripheral’ HPA-like system to locally manage responses to stress (Slominski and Mihm, 1996 ;

points during the menstrual cycle of women in the sample, Yang et al. were able to show that oestradiol and progesterone concentrations varied similarly in hair, as they did in serum, across the three sampling occasions during these women’s menstrual cycles.

Because most of the kinds of stressors that have been used to study changes in hair cortisol concentrations are relatively lengthy (e.g., pregnancy, moving habitat, medical procedure pain), it is relevant to enquire if cortisol in hair responds to relatively brief stressors in the same way as central cortisol. Studies of this issue have the propensity to also illuminate the issue of localisation of hair cortisol effects. In a small pilot study (Sharpley et al., 2009) using three healthy males who underwent a brief, 1-min cold presser test on their preferred hand, all showed significant increases in hair concentrations to this pain, as shown in Figure 2. Moreover, those increases were immediate (i.e., they occurred during hand immersion); short-lived (hair cortisol concentrations reduced to pre-stressor levels within 5 min after the end of the cold pressor test), and localised (there were no changes in hair cortisol concentrations in the opposite lower leg)

 

[Georgie]

Scalp hair is more evolved than body hair, more dependent from hormones in blood.

My idea is that these hairs are mpre isolated/independents don´t touching among them.

Eyelash, eyebrowns and hair in noses and ears are the third type of human hairs. Scalp hairs have asynhronia, not all mamifers have it.


There is any publication in this issue?


The important hormones (androgens/estrogens for hair cycle in scalp hairs are made inside the pilosebacous unit


Really, I am with you, common hair loss is slow but inexorable process, more irreversible passing the time.


Good for you, me too.


sproutimg news hairs are a good pronostic, even they are fine.


IMHO scalp hair is not very different between sexes. Only the lenght of them is clearly different

Also it has nothing to do with the scalp hair but the receptors within the scalp.

 

[Georgie]

Agreed. Georgie if I saw you on the street I would never guess you have an issue with hair. I would probably think wow lucky her she’s got great hair just like the majority of woman. I’m too scarred to mess with my hormones because sometimes it makes things worse but obviously you seem to be maintaining. I’m sure you’ll find the right concoction to get it where you want. I’m still holding out for Brotzu and Hopefully in the next few years Follicum pulls through along with several others. We just need some real options.

I am Actually very interested in Follicum. I am looking forward to seeing how the human scalp trials go

 

[IdealForehead]

The important hormones (androgens/estrogens for hair cycle in scalp hairs are made inside the pilosebacous unit

Can you elaborate more on your perspective with respect to this or any evidence? I think hormones CAN be made within the pilosebaceous unit, but they can also be delivered to the hair from the blood.

eg. If you add a synthetic anabolic steroid you will go balder faster, because it will be delivered to the hair follicles and bind just like any natural androgen.

Ditto with effects from exogenous estrogen added orally or topically.

So hair can react to circulating hormones and/or it can create its own hormones.

 

[talesofdahustle]

Can you elaborate more on your perspective with respect to this or any evidence? I think hormones CAN be made within the pilosebaceous unit, but they can also be delivered to the hair from the blood.

eg. If you add a synthetic anabolic steroid you will go balder faster, because it will be delivered to the hair follicles and bind just like any natural androgen.

Ditto with effects from exogenous estrogen added orally or topically.

So hair can react to circulating hormones and/or it can create its own hormones.

Do you have instructions and sources making the topical you currently use? trying to go through your posts but getting lost. I'm on 2g oral seti for 4 weeks now and still shedding and have never used minoxidil. I need a growth agent (Was going to order pge2 or use minoxidl but then saw your post about it being bad cosmetically)

 

[IdealForehead]

Do you have instructions and sources making the topical you currently use? trying to go through your posts but getting lost. I'm on 2g oral seti for 4 weeks now and still shedding and have never used minoxidil. I need a growth agent (Was going to order pge2 or use minoxidl but then saw your post about it being bad cosmetically)

Minoxidil is still critical as a growth agent. We don't have many better chemicals out there. I was just writing about that here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...opical-for-aag-pat.113635/page-2#post-1660134

Sure I can explain how I make my topical though. It's pretty simple. For the record, I'm not suggesting you do this as the compounds I'm using and the way I am using them is experimental with no safety data for yourself or others that might touch or be exposed to your scalp (eg. pregnant women, children). In fact I would suggest strongly against trying anything like this.

I start with a base of 40 mL 5% minoxidil, or otherwise mix 40 mL of: 50% propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol, or propanediol (eg. from lotioncrafter), 30% ethanol, 20% water.

I measure my powders using a milligram scale on ebay (search 'mg scale'). I use tiny measuring spoon sets for picking up my powders (search 'smidgen spoon' on ebay). I use 30 mL clear plastic medicine cups to transfer/measure my powders and mix with (search ebay for 'medicine cup'). I use 50 mL amber bottles to hold my finished work (search ebay for 'amber bottle'). I use mini plastic funnels to transfer my liquids/powders into the amber bottles (search ebay for 'plastic mini funnel').

Powders added to the 40 mL of base are:

- 80 mg (0.2%) darolutamide (Gang Luo - contact info in daro thread)
- 2 g (5%) niacinamide (herbstoreusa.com)
- 0.4 g (1%) desloratadine (Geekee biochem on Alibaba)

Then it must be mixed with a lot of shaking. Daro has terrible solubility at room temperature or in general so I microwave the bottle for 4-7 seconds at a time to warm it up (but not too hot) and shake it for a few more minutes. Repeat until dissolved.

Then I apply 2 mL at bedtime after showering and 1 mL in the morning. That's the max daro dose I can tolerate (6 mg /day) and I plan to cut it down further when able.

Daro is an androgen receptor antagonist. Niacinamide is anti-inflammatory, anti-sebum/acne, and good for general skin health. Desloratadine blocks some downstream inflammatory cascades (eg. male pattern baldness itch presumed to be histamine related).

I don't have any direct growth stimulants in there because I cannot find any really good ones besides minoxidil and I don't intend to use minoxidil long term due to skin problems with it. I used minoxidil orally and topically for the last 6 months but cut it out as of a few weeks ago due to surgery and needing my skin to heal.

 

[inmyhead]

Minoxidil is still critical as a growth agent. We don't have many better chemicals out there. I was just writing about that here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...opical-for-aag-pat.113635/page-2#post-1660134

Sure I can explain how I make my topical though. It's pretty simple. For the record, I'm not suggesting you do this as the compounds I'm using and the way I am using them is experimental with no safety data for yourself or others that might touch or be exposed to your scalp (eg. pregnant women, children). But for academic purposes, this is what I do.

Start with a base of 40 mL 5% minoxidil, or otherwise mix 40 mL of: 50% propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol, or propanediol (eg. from lotioncrafter), 30% ethanol, 20% water.

I measure my powders using a milligram scale on ebay (search 'mg scale'). I use tiny measuring spoon sets for picking up my powders (search 'smidgen spoon' on ebay). I use 30 mL clear plastic medicine cups to transfer/measure my powders and mix with (search ebay for 'medicine cup'). I use 50 mL amber bottles to hold my finished work (search ebay for 'amber bottle'). I use mini plastic funnels to transfer my liquids/powders into the amber bottles (search ebay for 'plastic mini funnel').

Powders added to the 40 mL of base are:

- 80 mg (0.2%) darolutamide (Gang Luo - contact info in daro thread)
- 2 g (5%) niacinamide (herbstoreusa.com)
- 0.4 g (1%) desloratadine (Geekee biochem on Alibaba)

Then it must be mixed with a lot of shaking. Daro has terrible solubility at room temperature or in general so I microwave the bottle for 4-7 seconds at a time to warm it up (but not too hot) and shake it for a few more minutes. Repeat until dissolved.

Then I apply 2 mL at bedtime after showering and 1 mL in the morning. That's the max daro dose I can tolerate (6 mg /day) and I plan to cut it down further when able.

Daro is an androgen receptor antagonist. Niacinamide is anti-inflammatory, anti-sebum/acne, and good for general skin health. Desloratadine blocks some downstream inflammatory cascades (eg. male pattern baldness itch presumed to be histamine related).

I don't have any direct growth stimulants in there because I cannot find any really good ones besides minoxidil and I don't intend to use minoxidil long term due to skin problems with it. I used minoxidil orally and topically for the last 6 months but cut it out as of a few weeks ago due to surgery and needing my skin to heal.

Experimental growth stimulants you could try would be things like equol or estriol, though my estriol experiment ended poorly. lol.

What happened with estriol?

 

[IdealForehead]

What happened with estriol?

See:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...inder-hair-growth.113077/page-11#post-1656178
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...inder-hair-growth.113077/page-11#post-1658006
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...inder-hair-growth.113077/page-11#post-1658013

 

[Armando Jose]

Can you elaborate more on your perspective with respect to this or any evidence? I think hormones CAN be made within the pilosebaceous unit, but they can also be delivered to the hair from the blood.

DHT is inestable and don't travel in the blood

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20224689
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12445184
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3598204

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

This galea tension theory is interesting but it doesn't explain male pattern baldness in detail.if galeal mechanical stress causes hairloss then why some men and women don't have any baldness? Post author said ,non balding peoples galea have different structure.but does he has any evidence for this?
In ehkers danlos syndrome connective tissues are very flexible than normal people and such a tissues can bear more pressure than normal peoples connective tissues. By this fact men with ehlers danlos syndrome should not go bald .had anyone documented such a cases?
I think this scalp tension theory don't hold water.

 

[inmyhead]

Check this website:

tmdocclusion.com/home/connection-to-other-diseases-and-syndromes/hair-loss/

Theory is worthless without a way to test it.

A post from forum member
"See the first post in my thread "Dispensing with old-fashioned male pattern baldness theories, and one NEW one!", which is currently near the top of the "New Discoveries" forum. I present details of the 1979 Nordstrom study, in which hair follicles from the front part of a balding young man's scalp were transplanted to his arm, and they continued to go bald at the same rate as they did when they were on his scalp (obviously, the arm doesn't even contain a galea). That's powerful experimental evidence against the silly "galea theory", which is similar to other explanations that people used to come up with a long time ago to explain balding, like wearing too-tight hats. We've come a long way since those olden days, folks, let's try to keep up with the latest and greatest medical technology!"

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

The complexity of male pattern baldness suggest that baldness was a positively selected trait in evolution. We don't know why did nature select this embarrassingly complex trait but it definitely helped our male ancestor in survival. There are nearly 300 gene identified so far in connection with baldness which implies that getting bald is very very important for us to survive.
Coming to galea theory which I think is nonsensical. People have same galeal structures and stresses. So I don't buy this crap

 

[MorningGlory]

hair follicles from the front part of a balding young man's scalp were transplanted to his arm, and they continued to go bald at the same rate as they did when they were on his scalp (obviously, the arm doesn't even contain a galea). That's powerful experimental evidence against the silly "galea theory"

It’s been proposed that the upregulation occurs early on in life as a result of galea tension so transplanted follicles would continue to bald.

Why does everything have to be so absolute on this forum? It’s like debating 9/11 Truthers at times. “You can’t adequately explain this small anomaly thus Bush put the bombs in building 7!”

What honest people are attempting to do is approach a more holistic understanding of hair loss, not necessarily to replace the existing DHT axiom.

 

[inmyhead]

It’s been proposed that the upregulation occurs early on in life as a result of galea tension so transplanted follicles would continue to bald.

Why does everything have to be so absolute on this forum? It’s like debating 9/11 Truthers at times. “You can’t adequately explain this small anomaly thus Bush put the bombs in building 7!”

What honest people are attempting to do is approach a more holistic understanding of hair loss, not necessarily to replace the existing DHT axiom.

It's basically the same as saying that follicles on top of the head are prone to Androgens. Whats the point of this theory then?

The complexity of male pattern baldness suggest that baldness was a positively selected trait in evolution. We don't know why did nature select this embarrassingly complex trait but it definitely helped our male ancestor in survival. There are nearly 300 gene identified so far in connection with baldness which implies that getting bald is very very important for us to survive.
Coming to galea theory which I think is nonsensical. People have same galeal structures and stresses. So I don't buy this crap

It could be a bad luck also. There are studies saying that people with baldness are more likely to have heart diseases. So your saying is wrong.

 

[MorningGlory]

Whats the point of this theory then?

Same “point” as any theory. If you mean what does it change for you immediately and your personal approach to combatting your hair loss, then nothing. Go to the other sections and read about the Big 3.