Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

[overpourgoodfortune]

Oh, yeah. Ma man Rob. That is an interesting post indeed.
It's becoming more and more clear that microneedling could be a very important part of the puzzle.

I like his evaluation of hair loss drugs against his final flow chart. I've taken the liberty of modifying the image (box in red) to show where needling (likely) comes in:

Based on reading this thread - I do tend to agree with his summations:

Since Finasteride reduces DHT in the scalp, it helps stop the cascade of events that trigger calcification, fibrosis, and eventually hair loss…

But because calcification and fibrosis are further downstream to DHT, and because calcification and fibrosis are chronic progressive conditions, then reducing DHT won’t actually reverse these conditions! It’ll only slow or stop their progression. This is why Finasteride is great at arresting hair loss, but not at regrowing much hair.

Calcification and fibrosis are the two biggest hurdles to hair recovery.

Drugs like Finasteride decrease scalp DHT, but they do little to reverse any of the calcification and fibrosis already present in our scalps. As a result, most hair loss drugs only slow or arrest hair loss. They don’t necessarily regrow any hair.

 

[Bill_Russo]

I like his evaluation of hair loss drugs against his final flow chart. I've taken the liberty of modifying the image (box in red) to show where needling (likely) comes in:

View attachment 109240

Based on reading this thread - I do tend to agree with his summations:

That is partly why I'm going with mechanical manipulation only for now. To try and create a better environment for the hair. Diet is already good as I work out. Perhaps I'll look into some supplements, but my wallet hurts. Might get checked too. THEN go for more treatments.

 

[Bill_Russo]

If my temples grow in I will definitely shave my head, just because it's a choice haha.

Yes, do it for us!
It might sound silly, but one thing I'd also do is wear a winter hat showing the hairline.
I've never really wore one unless I had to for the past 5 years and I really like them, I've refused to wear one to hide my hair all this time partly for that reason, but If I ever get it back, one of the first things I'd do is wear a f*****g hat because I want to.

 

[BalderBaldyBald]

Srsly it's becoming clear to me.

Also if I recall correctly there was a study that confirmed, bald men had (much) more fibrosis on their scalp than average men.

Yup, but DHT and Androgen Receptors will always be upstream (as in the chart posted) of this nightmare, just adressing fibrosis due to long term inflammation won't do the deal, chart may be correct but it's a polygenic and multifactorial disease.

Study about DP cells within the follicles themselves (observed Ex-Vivo / In-Vitro aka not on scalp anymore)
Balding hair follicle dermal papilla cells contain higher levels of androgen receptors than those from non-balding scalp. 1998
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9496234
"The higher levels of androgen receptors in cells from balding scalp hair follicles with similar properties to those from non-balding scalp concur with the expectations from their in vivo responses to androgens. This supports the hypothesis that androgens act via the dermal papilla and suggests that cultured dermal papilla cells may offer a model system for studying androgen action in androgenetic alopecia."

Dihydrotestosterone-Inducible Dickkopf 1 from Balding Dermal Papilla Cells Causes Apoptosis in Follicular Keratinocytes
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15337325
"DHT-induced epithelial cell death in cultured hair follicles was reversed by neutralizing DKK-1 antibody"

Interesting study about Perifollicular Fibrosis from 2006
Perifollicular Fibrosis: Pathogenetic Role in Androgenetic Alopecia
https://www.researchgate.net/public...is_Pathogenetic_Role_in_Androgenetic_Alopecia

"The primary location for the AR in hair follicles is well known to be the dermal papillae in both anagen and telogen hairs.
Moreover, it is usually believed that the dermal papilla plays a major regulatory role in hair follicles and is
thought to be the site of androgen action. Therefore, action mechanisms of androgen on Androgenetic Alopecia has been usually studied using dermal papilla cells.Recently, AR has been also identified in the interfollicular
DFs and epidermal keratinocytes."

Ultimate solution would be to address every damn factors to 100%, which is currently impossible.
Or somehow identify and correct the ones on top of list, which is, well....DNA

So yes and no, cultured follicles death ex-vivo under DHT influence has been observed and confirmed a long time ago

 

[Harry219]

Hey guys,
I'm following the thread from the beginning and theres one question popping up again and again but i couldnt find a real answer probably because Nobody really knows..

Something I would like to understand.

Dermarolling is supposed to increase collagen production (healing process), that why some women and men using it on their face to get rid of wrinkles, it’s increases collagen production locally.

And in the same time it’s supposed to stop and reverse fibrosis, especially on the scalp.

But fibrosis is collagen deposition.

Did I miss something?

I’m worried because I tend to develop keloid scar, I produce too much collagen. And if the result of dermarolling is the production of more collagen I don’t think it’s a good way to fight fibrosis.

Can someone explain ... ?

Thank you.

Maybe someone knows an answer to this question,
I remeber ive read somewhere theres good and bad collagen but dont really know..Maybe someone can help

Thanks from Germany and keep up the good work

 

[yayapapaya]

I wanna try 2mm instead of 1.5mm. Maybe it will make more difference.

 

[Drextez]

HAIRLOSS EXPLAINED IN MEN + CURE + CAN YOU EVENTUALLY DROP MINOXIDIL

- calcification fibrosis is the cause of hairloss in men ( which are 99% of cases in males, ......obviously there are exceptions but you get the point)

- calcification fibrosis makes the follicle dormant....... its not actual hormones directly making dormant follicles. try to use finasteride on someone with an advanced calcification fibrosis scalp...the hair wont grow alot...... thats because the fibrosis is already advanced and needs to be treated/reversed to normal.

- calcification fibrosis cause poor circulation, but it can be constantly reversed with microneedling (add minoxidil to wakeup/boost the follicle everyday, until you reversed calcification fibrosis and the hair is solid (6months-12months). think about it, why guys with beards keep their follicles after dropping minoxidil? Because theres almost no calcification fibrosis on cheecks/jawline. get rid of that calcification fibrosis and make sure the new hairs/gains will stay, like people do with their minoxidil beard, they go 1year on minoxidil and drop it after, and keep all their gains.

if you drop it and you lose your gains ... well

-your calcification fibrosis was still not reversed
-or your new hairs weren't terminal


so before dropping minoxidil and maintaining with microneedling only, make sure of 3 things:

1- scalp is reversed of calcification fibrosis
2- your dormant follicles woke up and they are now terminal hairs
3 - You found a way to fight calcification fibrosis constantly effectlively (that would be microneedling and maybe massages if you want) and you are ready to take the risk of losing all your gains.

...... minoxidil + Microneedling is a marathon, not a race. it might take 3 years of treatement with consistency for you to get back to nw1. its not easy, its a lifestyle.


thats how you can maintain with microneedling + massages. (considering the person's hairloss cause is calcification fibrosis and that they can handle microneedling sessions to their lifestyle)


undetailed summary:

-manage to constantly reverse calcifacation fibrosis. (maintain)

-wakeup/boost your dormant follicles with a strong circulation boosting topical, until your follicles are strong enough (terminal) and your calcifaction fibrosis is constantly gone.

So for now, thats the ''cure'' of hairloss.... aka the best way we found to fight calcification fibrosis.....can you handle this? will this work for you? depends if you are a disciplined person and can tolerate pain, healthy, hygenic in your microneedling regimen and motivated. remember that it gets easier overtime. If thats you start here, : https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/microneedling-faqs-procedures-studies-and-such.119653/

 

[ToLGuy]

I like his evaluation of hair loss drugs against his final flow chart. I've taken the liberty of modifying the image (box in red) to show where needling (likely) comes in:

View attachment 109240

Based on reading this thread - I do tend to agree with his summations:

That's an awesome flowchart. I would like to add that needling also has an effect on blood flow, given how it triggers angiogenesis and increases the probability of newly generated blood vessels to nourish miniaturized and poorly vascularized follicles.

 

[paul1988]

So wait, Idk if I understood correctly..
Doesn't microneedling triggers collagen production?
And excess collagen = fibrosis = hair loss ??

 

[FCKW36]

So wait, Idk if I understood correctly..
Doesn't microneedling triggers collagen production?
And excess collagen = fibrosis = hair loss ??

But Minoxidil destroys collagen. Maybe that's the reason why they work the best if used together.

 

[hairloss_user]

Maybe I missed it but did anyone actually get their temples back by needling? I mean like back to nw1 or nw2

Really want my temples back

 

[ImpedingReceding]

Maybe I missed it but did anyone actually get their temples back by needling? I mean like back to nw1 or nw2

Really want my temples back

https://imgur.com/a/9moOBwA
These are the progress pictures from the first 150 pages, there are three guys in there with temple regrowth, i don´t think those guys had needled for more than 6 months but i can´t remember, you can dig through the pages and check for yourself if you like!

 

[yayapapaya]

Maybe I missed it but did anyone actually get their temples back by needling? I mean like back to nw1 or nw2

Really want my temples back

I have a lot of new growth on temples. Regrowth is one thing, achieving good thickness is another. Takes a really long time(1+ years).

 

[hairloss_user]

Yeah that's what I mean. Like full regrowth and thickness. Probably gonna take a long *** time. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Kitedude who needled for so long got his temples back. I think he's still like nw3.

 

[layabout]

Yes, do it for us!
It might sound silly, but one thing I'd also do is wear a winter hat showing the hairline.
I've never really wore one unless I had to for the past 5 years and I really like them, I've refused to wear one to hide my hair all this time partly for that reason, but If I ever get it back, one of the first things I'd do is wear a f*****g hat because I want to.

Srsly it's becoming clear to me.

Also if I recall correctly there was a study that confirmed, bald men had (much) more fibrosis on their scalp than average men.

Wouldn’t that be something if it turns out baldness was caused simply by fibrosis and calcification (maybe induced by DHT) and the solution was to simply break those things up?

Like a farmer needs to plow and til the land to get the soil right for his crops to grow.

HAIRLOSS EXPLAINED IN MEN + CURE + CAN YOU EVENTUALLY DROP MINOXIDIL

- calcification fibrosis is the cause of hairloss in men ( which are 99% of cases in males, ......obviously there are exceptions but you get the point)

- calcification fibrosis makes the follicle dormant....... its not actual hormones directly making dormant follicles. try to use finasteride on someone with an advanced calcification fibrosis scalp...the hair wont grow alot...... thats because the fibrosis is already advanced and needs to be treated/reversed to normal.

- calcification fibrosis cause poor circulation, but it can be constantly reversed with microneedling (add minoxidil to wakeup/boost the follicle everyday, until you reversed calcification fibrosis and the hair is solid (6months-12months). think about it, why guys with beards keep their follicles after dropping minoxidil? Because theres almost no calcification fibrosis on cheecks/jawline. get rid of that calcification fibrosis and make sure the new hairs/gains will stay, like people do with their minoxidil beard, they go 1year on minoxidil and drop it after, and keep all their gains.

if you drop it and you lose your gains ... well

-your calcification fibrosis was still not reversed
-or your new hairs weren't terminal


so before dropping minoxidil and maintaining with microneedling only, make sure of 3 things:

1- scalp is reversed of calcification fibrosis
2- your dormant follicles woke up and they are now terminal hairs
3 - You found a way to fight calcification fibrosis constantly effectlively (that would be microneedling and maybe massages if you want) and you are ready to take the risk of losing all your gains.

...... minoxidil + Microneedling is a marathon, not a race. it might take 3 years of treatement with consistency for you to get back to nw1. its not easy, its a lifestyle.


thats how you can maintain with microneedling + massages. (considering the person's hairloss cause is calcification fibrosis and that they can handle microneedling sessions to their lifestyle)


undetailed summary:

-manage to constantly reverse calcifacation fibrosis. (maintain)

-wakeup/boost your dormant follicles with a strong circulation boosting topical, until your follicles are strong enough (terminal) and your calcifaction fibrosis is constantly gone.

So for now, thats the ''cure'' of hairloss.... aka the best way we found to fight calcification fibrosis.....can you handle this? will this work for you? depends if you are a disciplined person and can tolerate pain, healthy, hygenic in your microneedling regimen and motivated. remember that it gets easier overtime. If thats you start here, : https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/microneedling-faqs-procedures-studies-and-such.119653/

Lmao this thread. The broscience is starting to get a little out of hand

But Minoxidil destroys collagen. Maybe that's the reason why they work the best if used together.

minoxidil has no effect on collagen across multiple in vivo studies.. and that's DIRECTLY applied on open WOUNDS lol

 

[nicefella]

Hey all,

Lurker but decided to post as I just bought my roller!

I've been on minx (no regrowth) and finasteride for 3 years now so anything that happens I will attribute to the roller.

However, I can't help but feel weird/sad about this as there are plenty of threads online as far back as 2014 where people are talking about this EXACT regimen of roll once/week and minoxidil 6 days a week and many, many users reported no benefits.

What's different about this procedure and why are we all hyped? I see the results people post and I don't want to be a debbie downer, just asking what makes this trial of dermarolling/stamping different than all the ones before it?

Thanks so much gentlemen, hopefully it works out!

 

[ToLGuy]

Hey all,

Lurker but decided to post as I just bought my roller!

I've been on minx (no regrowth) and finasteride for 3 years now so anything that happens I will attribute to the roller.

However, I can't help but feel weird/sad about this as there are plenty of threads online as far back as 2014 where people are talking about this EXACT regimen of roll once/week and minoxidil 6 days a week and many, many users reported no benefits.

What's different about this procedure and why are we all hyped? I see the results people post and I don't want to be a debbie downer, just asking what makes this trial of dermarolling/stamping different than all the ones before it?

Thanks so much gentlemen, hopefully it works out!

The main difference I see between the current and the past threads is that back then everyone was somehow expecting miraculous regrowth. From what I can infer (I read the large thread here and at bald truth), people read the studies and somehow thought that it was kind of a cure within 3-6 months. My hypothesis is that for some reason they overestimated the outcomes from the Indian study. Perhaps they based their expectations on the few pics presented in the study (which were obviously the Top responders), instead of using the average numbers as a reference.
Anyway, many of them got vellus hairs within 3 months, but they were deemed as no results because they were not cosmetically significant yet.

In the current thread, Im sure people are getting results in the same proportion as past threads. Difference is that at the beginning of the thread, many of us warned everyone that results will come very slowly and gradually, and in the long term. Basically, the bar was set lower.

Of course, this is my personal hypothesis and should be taken as speculation . There might be other minor factors, such as people using a pen rather than a roller (more comfortable and less painful) so now more pressure can be applied and needles are penetrating deeper.

 

[yayapapaya]

The main difference I see between the current and the past threads is that back then everyone was somehow expecting miraculous regrowth. From what I can infer (I read the large thread here and at bald truth), people read the studies and somehow thought that it was kind of a cure within 3-6 months. My hypothesis is that for some reason they overestimated the outcomes from the Indian study. Perhaps they based their expectations on the few pics presented in the study (which were obviously the Top responders), instead of using the average numbers as a reference.
Anyway, many of them got vellus hairs within 3 months, but they were deemed as no results because they were not cosmetically significant yet.

In the current thread, Im sure people are getting results in the same proportion as past threads. Difference is that at the beginning of the thread, many of us warned everyone that results will come very slowly and gradually, and in the long term. Basically, the bar was set lower.

Of course, this is my personal hypothesis and should be taken as speculation . There might be other minor factors, such as people using a pen rather than a roller (more comfortable and less painful) so now more pressure can be applied and needles are penetrating deeper.

Good summary. Still, a lot of delusional people are in this thread. But it's ok, they will face reality soon.

 

[yayapapaya]

Hey all,

Lurker but decided to post as I just bought my roller!

I've been on minx (no regrowth) and finasteride for 3 years now so anything that happens I will attribute to the roller.

However, I can't help but feel weird/sad about this as there are plenty of threads online as far back as 2014 where people are talking about this EXACT regimen of roll once/week and minoxidil 6 days a week and many, many users reported no benefits.

What's different about this procedure and why are we all hyped? I see the results people post and I don't want to be a debbie downer, just asking what makes this trial of dermarolling/stamping different than all the ones before it?

Thanks so much gentlemen, hopefully it works out!

I actually can't believe people don't dermaroll to enhance regrowth. With that being said, pics in this thread are a scam and maybe 1% will be able to replicate them, if any at all.

 

[9982]

Maybe I missed it but did anyone actually get their temples back by needling? I mean like back to nw1 or nw2

Really want my temples back

I'm needling with minoxidil and my temples were gone around 20 years ago. I can see little white hair coming out now. A few are 5mm long with much smaller ones growing in. My burns are grey now so they might never get colour.
2 months tomorrow for minoxidil and about 3 weeks with a roller. Sometimes I use 0.5mm and I've only used 1.5 mm once so far. I bleed with 0.5mm at the hairline and top of my scalp so not sure if 1.5 is really necessary.
I rub in minoxidil immediately after I roll.
I can't roll on top, only press it in because my hair gets caught. I roll hairline and temples though because no hair to catch

 

[Drextez]

With that being said, pics in this thread are a scam and maybe 1% will be able to replicate them, if any at all.

thats a bold statement, fake pictures in this thread? Providing proof for your claim wouldn't be too much to ask