Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[Guest]

gotcha. so you're saying that we aren't sure yet if green tea reduces DHT production or actually increases hormone production? I am wondering if there are any foods or drugs that you know of that can reduce regular T production?

 

[Old Baldy]

You guys might find this recent study interesting:

: Steroids. 2005 Dec 15;70(14):974-9. Epub 2005 Aug 30. Links
Circulating levels of isoflavones and markers of 5alpha-reductase activity are higher in Japanese compared with New Zealand males: what is the role of circulating steroids in prostate disease?Lewis JG, Nakajin S, Ohno S, Warnock A, Florkowski CM, Elder PA.
Steroid & Immunobiochemistry Laboratory, Canterbury Health Laboratories, P.O. Box 151, Christchurch 8001, New Zealand. john.lewis@cdhb.govt.nz

Epidemiological evidence implicates dietary isoflavone intake as protective against prostate disease. A putative mechanism is attenuated circulating androgen levels in male populations consuming an isoflavone rich diet. We investigated this hypothesis by collecting plasma from 60 Japanese and 60 New Zealand males aged between 21 and 31 years each consuming their traditional diets. We measured plasma testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), androstenedione, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), the combined levels of androsterone sulfate and epiandrosterone sulfate (AoS/epiAoS), sex hormone-binding globulin, and cortisol and corticosteroid-binding globulin as well as the isoflavones genistein and equol. Plasma genistein and equol levels were several times higher in Japanese males as would be expected from an isoflavone rich diet. However, androstenedione, DHEAS, calculated free testosterone and paradoxically markers of 5alpha-reductase, DHT and AoS/epiAoS were all also significantly higher in Japanese rather than the New Zealand male counterparts. All other comparisons were not significant. Plasma DHT and DHEAS correlated positively with plasma equol and plasma AoS/epiAoS correlated positively with genistein levels. Taken together the results suggest that, rather than reduced levels of steroidogenesis, Japanese males may have increased 5alpha-reductase activity and possibly altered 17beta OH steroid dehydrogenase activity. Significantly the positive association between isoflavones levels and 5alpha-steroids is counter-intuitive to isoflavone intake offering prostate protection, unless this is postulated to occur through other mechanisms.

Hmmm.... kind of a blow to the diet theory isn't it? The Japanese men produced MORE steroids and increased 5AR activity than New Zealand men who consume LESS soy.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

here is why your theory is bad:

you eluted to the fact of human evolution, and how our diet had changed, thus causing male pattern baldness

well buddy, i have bad news, many species of apes, of which we have a common ancestry, have GOSH.... male pattern baldness:

When the body is starved it releases a rush of androgens which caused DHT to elevate. All it takes is for an ape to go, for example, a few weeks without food for him to start to suffer from miniaturization if they really are the same as humans.

I'm still not convinced we should be using Apes as a model for human male pattern baldness.

all without the modern American diet, all without not cooking fats, living with Eskimos or Native Americans :wink: :roll:

Yes, I'm well aware that apes cannot cook.

DNA and ribosomal RNA sequencing disagrees. In fact, I have an evolutionary wheel so complete and based on sequencing that it can retrace the evolution of all species back to single celled organisms.

They say we evolved from Dolphins too. Are you going to use them as a model for studying male pattern baldness?

Yes, but SO WHAT?? You're trying to dodge the important point, which is that those other primates suffer the same kind of androgenetic alopecia that we humans do. They have been excellent animal models for testing in this area and respond the same way we do to the various hairloss treatments, including topical minoxidil, oral finasteride, RU58841, etc. They develop that balding while living in their natural environments, eating their natural diets, and I've heard rumors that they don't even cook their fats! How do you explain THAT little conundrum? :wink:

Bryan

AS I've said above If you starve your body it will upset the hormonal balance and release a wave of DHT which can cause miniaturization. In theory, all the apes would have had to is gone without food for the requisite period.

Conundrum solved.

man when i see a monkey start to cook his food then i'll start running for the hills cuz its gunna be a planet of the apes.

This is highly unlikely occurrence.

yes you are an ape you dumb ***, same freaking genes too buddy, same reason for male pattern baldness

I am not an ape. I'm not so sure about you. If apes DO suffer male pattern baldness then yes you're right. HORMONAL IMBALANCE for a period of time causes male pattern baldness

in some species of apes, males are actually selected by females because of their male pattern baldness

Is that what she told you?

DammitLetMeIn: i think your theory does have some merit still, because in planet of the apes, they did cook, and harvest corn, which is not a natural diet, which is why some apes in the movie had male pattern baldness

You do realize that is fictional right? (or maybe I should just let you believe it)

Your talking about isolated communities.... which i bet had no genetic predisposition for it. I highly doubt that was because of diet but rather stress and environment.... i mean thats like saying they are tan because of what they eat.

'Price also demolished any notion that these isolated groups of unusually healthy people somehow had a unique hereditary resistance to disease and degeneration. He reasoned that had superior genes been the case, then following up people who abandoned life in a healthful community for the life of "civilization" should find them continuing in the same good condition. If genetically determined, then not only the adults who left should continue to be healthy, but when a married pair left, their children, carrrying the exact same genetics, should also be foundto be in good fettle. This proved not to be the case.'

And there were many pre war jap instances of balding. Why do you think most of them had the type of haircuts they did. If they were balding they would shave it all off. I have Japanese ancestry and did ask my grandma about this(100% Japanese from japan and pre war with an integrated western diet later in life). Very preposterous. There has always been receding hairlines and widows peaks... and if they saw evidence of baldness they would shave it all off most of the time..

The Japanese thing I am going on a popular notion. I don't think there's any dispute over the fact that 2nd generation Japanese people living in the US experience more balding than older generations. Diet is the only explanation.

I'm not sure where you're Gran is from but apparently rural Japanese had even less balding than urban japanese. The reasons? well....diet

Sure diet plays a part if you already live an unhealthy lifestyle as it would cause the extra stress and obesity and diabetes etc.... But as im sure most of us are fairly healthy here so it doesnt hold much merit..

Healthy by whose standards? Who is really fulfilling their potential healthwise? who gets all the nutrients required daily (and im not talking RDAs), who only eats only natural whole foods? (mostly raw), who doesn't eat cooked fats?

genetics not food.

As I've already indicated with scientific sources in this thread, food turns on and off genetic switches.

But I still have male pattern baldness.

I wonder why.

The wrong macronutrient ratio for your body.

The post-war Japanese are indeed balding more than they used to.

Perhaps this is due to less green tea, soya, fish, veggies, and rice (lotsa beta sis in rice) and more high glycemic index foods and processed foods in their diets?

I agree, eating those foods would leave one more hormonally balanced than eating a modern day western diet hyped full of sugar and altered fats.

do you have stats for that, or just pulling it out of DammitLetMeIn's ***?

I really wish you'd leave my '***' outta this

That's what I'm thinking, as well..

O RLY! I thought you didn't think diet was a major factor?

The problem with the westernization of the Japanese diet is not strictly related to addition of fatty foods

The heaps and heaps of sugar in the Western diet and consequent high insulin levels may also have something to do with it :roll:

but that the Japanese have begun removing foods that are potentially rich in phytoestrogens and other substances that may potentially be stimulants of hair growth or foods that may inhibit hair loss all together.

yes phytoestrogens will no doubt have an impact upon DHT, even japanese prostates are smaller as a consequence and this will have an impact upon their male pattern baldness rates. HOwever, I don't think it does so on its own, its the overall balance in the foods they had which is their key imo.

There used to be a webmd article that brought up the subject, but I couldn't find it..

Interesting you found a source for the Japanese thing. Bubka will never believe you though.

Anyway............I work for a Japanese company, and many of the younger Japanese execs have some recession, but alot of the old guys have all their hair, even in their sixties and seventies. Wonder why that is? .

Which is more evidence to suggest that diet trumps genetics where male pattern baldness is concerned.

I personally think soya and green tea and rice and fish and veggies are good for hair from an androgenic standpoint, and McDonalds and Cooca-cola, no matter how wonderful they taste, are not.

I agree, its definitely a combination and not just because of soya and green tea

thanks, i am sure you effort it well spent and intended, but i think i understand male pattern baldness pretty well here...

He stated he had a medical article. But safe to say to you didn't bother to read any of his links.

i don't care about your anecdotal evidence, this guy claims that Eskimos, Native Americans, and Japanese experienced no male pattern baldness

And I'll give you evidence. But, I still think you'd make another excuse. You just love big macs I think...

DLM: You've relegated Western medicine to Dark Ages types of practices. .

On the contrary. I feel Western medicine has much we can be proud of. But I feel the route it has taken is very specific and narrow and one that relies upon instant results whereas some changes in the body require much longer.

Now where do place the basic premise of the primates balding fact in your hypothesis? (Please just don't say they are apes and have no similarities.).

See my answer above

Also, all my life I've never heard a doctor say fruits, veggies, lean meats and whole grains are things we should stay away from.

You didn't hear me say it either. Low glycemic raw fruits, vegetables, and whole grains are great for your health. cooked lean meats....eehh

"Western" doctors, in the main, have ALWAYS felt diet was an important component to preventing disease. (Well, at least during my lifetime - which started in about 1807!) To think otherwise is incorrect IMHO.

You heard DocJ's view on the outlook of WEstern Medicine earlier. HE stated disease came from genetics and that diet had little influence

My habits of juicing, growing fruits and veggies, eating lean meats, nuts, beans and whole grains came from DOCTORS' advice!.

Its sad you'll only listen to a medical doctor as to what to eat. Try listening to a qualified clinical nutritionist or someone of that ilk. They'll likely be much more knowledgable.

One of the most conservative doctors, Dr. Stephen Bennett of Quackwatch.com, sent me an email stating he thought juicing was a good addition to an otherwise healthy diet! He didn't think it would replace good whole foods but it could help.!.

You needed to speak to Quackwatch to decipher if juicing was good for you? sure the answer was obvious?

So don't say Western doctors feel diet is unimportant.

Western doctors treat with drugs, diet is very much a secondary thing

Tidbit: There was one jackass doctor, back in about 1950, who was the head of the FDA and stated diet has no effect on disease. He was not highly thought of by the medical profession to say the least.

Is it so surprising that he was the head of the FDA with that attitude? I dosn't surprise me one bit

You guys are correct IMHO. Diet helps, to be fair, but it ain't the cure IMHO.

Its the cause and the cure.

I am interested to hear of these foods that may inhibit hair loss all together? Wouldn't this replace the need to take drugs if this was true?

Haven't you heard of Equol produced by Soy?? It handcuffs DHT and stops it from damaging the follicle.

I exaggerated a little too much on that one. .

You didn't really, certain foods have actually been shown to do this

Sorry, JayMan. In Japan, a diet rich in phytoestrogens doesn't seem to affect the population all that much..

Source?

As for a diet combination that can inhibit large amount of DHT production, there was a study posted on this site not too long ago that clearly demonstrated that taking in soy products along with green tea inhibited massive amounts of DHT production.

I think it more 'handcuffs' DHT from what I read

Unfortunately, either one alone doesn't seem to work well and green tea alone may even raise hormone levels. .

Green tea may raise hormones but it also raises SGBH

I think a diet filled with fermented soy products and the daily intake of green tea could potentially do wonders for the hair and for keeping androgens down. I'm hoping that some better studies come out to help us out. .

How about pre-empting future studies and rely on past science and actually eating the stuff?

Some say phytoestrogens prevent prostate cancer, some say they may cause breast cancer, and some say they prevent endometrial cancer. Estrogens in general are linked to prostate cancer, but I don't think anyone has really worked that problem out, yet.

I think too MUCH of anything is bad for you.

I am wondering if there are any foods or drugs that you know of that can reduce regular T production?

DamN!!! I provided a link which stated JUST THAT!!

Hmmm.... kind of a blow to the diet theory isn't it? The Japanese men produced MORE steroids and increased 5AR activity than New Zealand men who consume LESS soy.

Good post old baldy, but it also states Equol levels were several times higher. Equol is shown to handcuff DHT!

 

[docj077]

gotcha. so you're saying that we aren't sure yet if green tea reduces DHT production or actually increases hormone production? I am wondering if there are any foods or drugs that you know of that can reduce regular T production?

Well, there was someone on these forums that posted a study that showed that green tea combined with soy reduced DHT levels significantly. When using each substance alone the results are less than desirable.

Reducing cholesterol in you diet is a potential means of lowering hormone levels. However, the body synthesizes its own supply of cholesterol from acetyl-CoA. It's quite efficient when it comes to maintaining a normal "spectrum" of hormone concentrations. Being on the low side is usually due to an actual synthesis problem such as an enzyme defect or a disease process shutting down hormone producing glands. Being above the recommended hormone concentrations is usually do to an underlying pathology, as well.

Something as simple as poor diet will not significantly alter hormone levels significantly. Your body has negative feedback mechanisms to assure that fact.

So, if your hormones are severely elevated or severely depressed, see a doctor about an underlying pathology (which you probably already would have as you'd feel like crap), because it isn't your diet causing the problem. All diseases that are based upon poor dietary choices require 30-40 years of a human being's life before they show themselves. Why should male pattern baldness be any different? Some men start balding at 14. That's too early and it's not enough time for the body to re-establish new physiological set points for the progression of any disease process.

 

[Bryan]

Yes, but SO WHAT?? You're trying to dodge the important point, which is that those other primates suffer the same kind of androgenetic alopecia that we humans do. They have been excellent animal models for testing in this area and respond the same way we do to the various hairloss treatments, including topical minoxidil, oral finasteride, RU58841, etc. They develop that balding while living in their natural environments, eating their natural diets, and I've heard rumors that they don't even cook their fats! How do you explain THAT little conundrum? :wink:

AS I've said above If you starve your body it will upset the hormonal balance and release a wave of DHT which can cause miniaturization. In theory, all the apes would have had to is gone without food for the requisite period.

Conundrum solved.

How does THAT solve the conundrum? All the balding primates go bald, even ones that are well-fed.

It's obvious with this latest lengthy installment of yours that you're not even making much of a pretense of replying to our objections. You're just blowing smoke, and I'm getting realy bored with this whole discussion.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

gotcha. so you're saying that we aren't sure yet if green tea reduces DHT production or actually increases hormone production? I am wondering if there are any foods or drugs that you know of that can reduce regular T production?

Well, there was someone on these forums that posted a study that showed that green tea combined with soy reduced DHT levels significantly. When using each substance alone the results are less than desirable.

Reducing cholesterol in you diet is a potential means of lowering hormone levels. However, the body synthesizes its own supply of cholesterol from acetyl-CoA. It's quite efficient when it comes to maintaining a normal "spectrum" of hormone concentrations. Being on the low side is usually due to an actual synthesis problem such as an enzyme defect or a disease process shutting down hormone producing glands. Being above the recommended hormone concentrations is usually do to an underlying pathology, as well.

Something as simple as poor diet will not significantly alter hormone levels significantly. Your body has negative feedback mechanisms to assure that fact.

So, if your hormones are severely elevated or severely depressed, see a doctor about an underlying pathology (which you probably already would have as you'd feel like crap), because it isn't your diet causing the problem. All diseases that are based upon poor dietary choices require 30-40 years of a human being's life before they show themselves. Why should male pattern baldness be any different? Some men start balding at 14. That's too early and it's not enough time for the body to re-establish new physiological set points for the progression of any disease process.

I think people would like to believe that diet is the cause of their baldness because diet is easily fixable, while genetics are impossible to fix. The only thing you can do in my opinion is fight the processes through inhibiting the type II 5ar enzyme and using minoxidil to thicken hair through the many ways it does so- being a vasodilator, opening potassium channels, maybe preventing fibrosis? there are other methods of attacks as you've mentioned with curcumin and green tea and vitamin e and gse, but i'm not sure if these work- either orally or topically.

dutasteride is pretty damned effective at blocking production of type II 5AR as Bryan has shown from his graphs . nizoral helps reduce sebum protection and reduce the size of sebaceous glands and minoxidil will help keep fibrosis from happening perhaps. i think thats all we have.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Yes, but SO WHAT?? You're trying to dodge the important point, which is that those other primates suffer the same kind of androgenetic alopecia that we humans do. They have been excellent animal models for testing in this area and respond the same way we do to the various hairloss treatments, including topical minoxidil, oral finasteride, RU58841, etc. They develop that balding while living in their natural environments, eating their natural diets, and I've heard rumors that they don't even cook their fats! How do you explain THAT little conundrum? :wink:

AS I've said above If you starve your body it will upset the hormonal balance and release a wave of DHT which can cause miniaturization. In theory, all the apes would have had to is gone without food for the requisite period.

Conundrum solved.

How does THAT solve the conundrum? All the balding primates go bald, even ones that are well-fed.

It's obvious with this latest lengthy installment of yours that you're not even making much of a pretense of replying to our objections. You're just blowing smoke, and I'm getting realy bored with this whole discussion.

Bryan

What are you talking about? I've provided an explanation as to why an ape in the wild may be bald.

All he has to do is go without food for a few weeks and the body will release a rush of androgens which can have the effect of causing male pattern baldness.

Surely you accept that most Apes will have gone hungry at some point?

 

[Guest]

Surely you accept that most Apes will have gone hungry at some point?

Oh, I don't know. You look pretty well fed.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Surely you accept that most Apes will have gone hungry at some point?

Oh, I don't know. You look pretty well fed.

Because you've seen me? Anyways thats not the point and I'm not an ape. The point is, even if an ape is well fed now he may have gone through a hungry period in the past.

 

[Bryan]

What are you talking about? I've provided an explanation as to why an ape in the wild may be bald.

I don't care about your explanation for why AN ape would go bald (specifically, a starving one), I'm interested in hearing your explanation for why ALL apes go bald.

You're just going through the motions now, aren't you? You're hardly even making a pretense of answering our objections.

Bryan

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

I don't care about your explanation for why AN ape would go bald (specifically, a starving one), I'm interested in hearing your explanation for why ALL apes go bald.

ALL apes don't go bald as far as I'm aware. U have evidence to the contrary? My point was that most apes are likely to have endured periods of starvation.

You seem to have a very personal argument against me. Listen, I am interested in how the diet relates to hormonal changes with a specific emphasis on DHT. I am fascinated by the diet of Eskimos and native indians who co-incidentally had no baldness.

YOu on the other hand seem intent on discrediting my every post.

 

[jambri]

I suppose that pretending that hairloss cannot be exacerbated by diet helps some people feel less threatened, somehow.

I'm sure that most honest people would realise diet plays some role.

 

[Guest]

I suppose that pretending that hairloss cannot be exacerbated by diet helps some people feel less threatened, somehow.

I'm sure that most honest people would realise diet plays some role.

says the man on nourkrin. lol.

 

[SkylineGTR]

Diet would play a role if you continually ate bad foods and threw your body to sh*t.

If you maintain a somewhat decent diet you body wouldn't hate you for it and would regulate what is needed.

Sure if you starve yourself your going to lose hair. your body would go into a stressed fight or flee mode and the chemicals would change for survival making use of anything they had. Malnutrition in general would mess everything up.

BTW my gma was from a rural village in the outskirts of Nagasaki.

Stress would play a bigger role then the food itself IMHO. Prolonged stress would put the permanent toll. Also influential factors that cause stress. The japanese had to restructure their society post war. There is alot more aggression and push to do bigger and better even in the workplace. The influence of western life in general not just the food.
Western society(specifically american) lives off of fear rather then honor.

Scientist said that society is what progressed evolution faster.

Maybe we are meant to go bald. If you look through the evolutionary charts we lose more and more hair as we evolve.

 

[Bryan]

I don't care about your explanation for why AN ape would go bald (specifically, a starving one), I'm interested in hearing your explanation for why ALL apes go bald.

ALL apes don't go bald as far as I'm aware. U have evidence to the contrary? My point was that most apes are likely to have endured periods of starvation.

That statement is illustrative of the general way you've been conducting yourself in this dialogue. When _I_ said what I did above, it occurred to me that you might come right back and say something like "apes don't all go bald", even though I had made it perfectly clear that I was referring to primates that DO all go bald, like stumptailed macaques. I dismissed that thought, and gave you credit for being honest enough not to waste my time by making me have to come back and clarify the obvious. I was obviously wrong to dismiss the thought that you weren't going to waste my time.

Yes, my friend, the ape species that are subject to androgenetic alopecia (like stumptailed macaques) DO all go bald. Even ones that are well-fed. So once again I'm waiting for your explanation for that.

You seem to have a very personal argument against me....YOu on the other hand seem intent on discrediting my every post.

I don't have anything personal against you, and I'm not "intent on discrediting" you. What pisses me off, though, is when you try to play games with me and refuse to acknowledge the legitimate points that are being made against your theory, and dodge and side-step them and make me spend extra time having to nail you down! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

DLM: FWIW, when I first started reading up on male pattern baldness, I ran across studies using stumptailed macaques as their test patients.

I asked myself, why in the heck are they using stumptailed macaques so much? After more reading I discovered these primates do all go bald.

So Bryan and the other members raising this point have an argument IMHO that is bona-fide.

All I could come up with for an answer was these primates are susceptible to androgens based on their genetic makeup. Not because of their diet. Now, I know these animals aren't human beings but they ain't that far off IMHO.

Even if these primates were raised in captivity, and never suffered starvation, they still go bald. I was surprised by the fact that they all go bald but that's just the way it is.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

The stump tail macaque's face goes red when the monkey is threatened and the mature macaque males have a network of large, sponge like, cavernous vessels just under the surface of the skin on the forehead and scalp, that can be flooded with blood under the stimulus of certain emotions.

These particular apes which you mention have evolved on the suvival of the fittest principle free from civilization.

Thus, the importance of being able to fend off other monkeys with a bright red face and scalp is of the utmost importance. Thereby, the monkeys who could show more area with crimson red were those who were more likely to survive.

Thereby, the original bald monkey had an advatage and his line continued and became the strongest to the point where his EXTREME predisposition for baldness became predominant throughout the species. Their sebaceous glands are known to be huge. This is not the case in humans. The food we eat influences the size of our sebaceous glands. For instance the sebaceous glands are said to be bigger in balding areas of the human head. Were they always like this? no. What triggers the increase in size of the sebaceous glands? hormones caused by diet.

In short, the monkeys genetic predisposition for baldness is extremely strong and given their love for high sugar foods, baldness is a certainty.

It is explained in the following link:

http://employees.csbsju.edu/lmealey/hot ... pter07.htm

you'll notice that the monkeys are not born bald but actually bald with age which indicates that something must trigger this genetic expression


What is the one thing most older people have in common?

high insulin levels

what is the one thing most people who live beyond 100 have in common??

low insulin levels.

 

[Old Baldy]

Some people feel male pattern baldness allows better heat dissipation in humans. Better able to "run down" animals when hunting. If so, wouldn't that be a genetic trait favored by evolution?

Don't forget the controversial "naked ape theory" that's been around for a LONG time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_theory

I'm telling you DLM, you can't dismiss genetics and evolution when discussing why humans have male pattern baldness IMHO.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Some people feel male pattern baldness allows better heat dissipation in humans. Better able to "run down" animals when hunting. If so, wouldn't that be a genetic trait favored by evolution?

we have had domesticated animals for a considerable period of time now, as in we have been able to live off their dairy so we have not needed to run animals down

whilst a kill may provide one meal, the dairy from a beast will last all year round

however, im not sure about your claim anyway and i don't want to drift too far off into evolutionary tales.

 

[Old Baldy]

Some people feel male pattern baldness allows better heat dissipation in humans. Better able to "run down" animals when hunting. If so, wouldn't that be a genetic trait favored by evolution?

we have had domesticated animals for a considerable period of time now, as in we have been able to live off their dairy so we have not needed to run animals down

whilst a kill may provide one meal, the dairy from a beast will last all year round

however, im not sure about your claim anyway.

I edited my previous post and added the naked ape theory. Interesting read to say the least. Food for thought don't you think?