Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[DammitLetMeIn]

I read it wrong specifically in the way that u wanted it. But what it was saying is right. Those sources are used in his diet.

he does recommend 1/5 of 30% of his diet to be saturated fats. look it up on the web. 6% of his advocated diet is cooked sat fat. the dude loves cheese.

dude, im not here for a competition. if i am wrong in my theory i want to know.

Dr Weil eats cooked fat.

 

[The Gardener]

I read it wrong specifically in the way that u wanted it. But what it was saying is right. Those sources are used in his diet.

he does recommend 1/5 of 30% of his diet to be saturated fats. look it up on the web.

No he doesn't.

Let me quote MORE from the same article you cited as backup...

REDUCE your intake of saturated fat by eating less butter, cream, cheese and other full-fat dairy products, unskinned chicken, fatty meats and products made with coconut and palm-kernel oils.

For those who eat 2,000 calories a day, 600 should be from fat, about 67 grams, with no more than a fifth of that from saturated fats

He is NOT AT ALL recommending that people should, in effect, TRY to make sure they get in at least 1/5th of their fats in the form of saturate fats. He is saying that saturated fats are NOT good, and people should strive to keep them less than 1/5th of their total fat intake.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

I read it wrong specifically in the way that u wanted it. But what it was saying is right. Those sources are used in his diet.

he does recommend 1/5 of 30% of his diet to be saturated fats. look it up on the web.

No he doesn't.

Let me quote MORE from the same article you cited as backup...

REDUCE your intake of saturated fat by eating less butter, cream, cheese and other full-fat dairy products, unskinned chicken, fatty meats and products made with coconut and palm-kernel oils.

[quote:3fabb]For those who eat 2,000 calories a day, 600 should be from fat, about 67 grams, with no more than a fifth of that from saturated fats

He is NOT AT ALL recommending that people should, in effect, TRY to make sure they get in at least 1/5th of their fats in the form of saturate fats. He is saying that saturated fats are NOT good, and people should strive to keep them less than 1/5th of their total fat intake.[/quote:3fabb]

yes, but he still allows them. and he still himself eats them (which is what we're really trying to deduce)

 

[The Gardener]

:lol:

You're a weasel. Credibility = 0

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

:lol:

You're a weasel. Credibility = 0

Dr Weil eats sat fat:

Hair = 0


Anyways, what do you make of this:

the bald truth

With all those female eyes focused on you, you'll probably want to keep your hair. Baldness depends largely on genetics. But the more meat and fat a man eats, the higher his testosterone level and the more it converts within the hair follicle to dihydrotestosterone, which is basically follicle poison. So going veg now can greatly increase your chances of keeping your hair.

No matter your age, men, it's never too late. Drop meat from your diet and beat the odds. A healthy 70-year-old man has more in common with a 30-year-old male than he does with an unhealthy man his own age. And remember: The longer you live, the more you'll find yourself outnumbered by women.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... 46372/pg_2

 

[The Gardener]

Fling-flaaaaam.....

Nice transition to initiate a quick change of subject....

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Fling-flaaaaam.....

Nice transition to initiate a quick change of subject....

lol, i'm not interested in u trying to discredit me. u honestly think i care what people think?

I didn't even say anything wrong

I'm interested in hair loss - thats it. dont answer if ur not interested in it.

 

[The Gardener]

Okay, fair enough.

This is what I think.

male pattern baldness is genetic. We have an internal hormonal "clock" that determines events in our development.

Males ALWAYS have DHT in our bodies throughout our lives. But, DHT alone is not the sole culprit... the factor that causes the changes is the sensitivity that body cells have to the DHT. As we get older, our chest hair follicles become increasingly sensitive to DHT, producing thicker chest hair. Our pubic hair follicles become sensitive producing pubic hair. Further along, our back skin cells become sensitive to DHT producing back hair... and of course, same with our heads.

I DO think that lifestyle and diet choices have an impact on the timing of this clock. But, I do not think that these choices, nor whatever impact they may have on DHT, should be considered a potential cure for male pattern baldness.

However, I DO think that they have an impact on the speed of this "clock", that determines the sensitivity that cells have to the DHT that is already present.

There are studies that show that such things as reducing stress slows this ageing clock.

However, I do not think that reducing stress, or diet, should be relied on as an implement with which DHT itself could be reduced to a level sufficient enough to prevent hairloss.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Well, I'm going to go on a meat free (substituting with soy protein/whey)
diet and bolster it with all the supplements required for a healthy prostate to see how I get on.

The equol + the anti-DHT measures should ensure some sort of change.

 

[Bryan]

Cholesterol Accumulation
Cholesterol which has been known to produce the enzyme 5 alpha reductase can also accumulate in the skin and scalp. When this cholesterol accumulation comes in contact with sunlight it produces the enzyme 5 alpha reductase directly in the scalp.

http://www.add-hair.com/hair-loss-causes.htm

ROTFLMAO!! No, it doesn't! Trust me on this: cholesterol doesn't produce 5a-reductase, and sunlight doesn't turn cholesterol into 5a-reductase.

This is why I told you before that I wanted MEDICAL REFERENCES AND CITATIONS (like something from a medical journal or textbook), not statements made on Web sites that are trying to sell you something. Those sites very frequently don't know what the hell they're talking about, and the above claims are perfect examples of that! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

IIRC, cholesterol is used to produce pregnenlone, which is the precursor to most (maybe all?) other hormones.

DHT is not directly produced from cholesterol. It's produced from the 5AR enzymes.

I think, (IIRC), cholesterol then pregnenolone, then other hormones, one path of which is - dhea, then testosterone/estrogen, then dht from testosterone via 5AR enzymes. There are other paths but, to get to dht, I think this is pretty close. Bryan?

The 5AR enzymes are "produced" by one of our chromosomes and it is a dominant trait IIRC. I don't see how that has anything to do with cholesterol? Bryan?

If I'm basically correct in the above paragraphs, you can see dht is far removed from cholesterol. Although, IIRC, you do need cholesterol to produce hormones? Bryan?

 

[Old Baldy]

male pattern baldness is genetic. And my point is that while individual DHT levels can vary widely from person to person, it is not the DHT that determines one's receptiveness to losing hair, it is genetic sensitivity to it that determines who has the higher norwoods. There are many people who have very low DHT levels, and take every DHT-inhibiting drug in the world (Finasteride, etc) but still end up slick bald. This is due to the fact that there is more variability in individuals sensitivity to DHT and the timing of its effects as we go through this eternally long process of continual puberty than there is variability in the presence of DHT in our blood.

There are people with very low amounts of dht that still go bald from male pattern baldness? Never knew that. Learn something everyday!!

I always assumed that male pattern baldness sufferers, although maybe more sensitive to hormones, had substantially more scalp dht? Much like Jay was saying IMHO.

 

[Old Baldy]

DLM: Here's what Doctor Proctor feels, in general, about diet and male pattern baldness:

In article <01bdffea> "Paul Hess" <Paulh> writes:
>From: "Paul Hess" <Paulh>
>Subject: Q for Dr. P
>Date: 25 Oct 1998 07:38:59 GMT
>Hi Dr. P,
>From what I gather, your opinion is that diet has little to do in relation
>to hair loss. Is this true, or is there a type of diet that would help in
>preventing hair loss?


Normally, diet has little or nothing to do with hair loss. The
exceptions are the extremes of frank deficiency--- sometimes you see this in
persons on "Fad" diets.

Also, are there any types of food or eating
habits>that would be unhealthy for hair growth?


There is an indirect effect of diet in that atherosclerosis (
hardening of the arteries) seems to be associated with worsening of pattern
loss and diet has a significant role in atherosclerosis. Be good to your
arteries and you will be good to your hair. Also, I advocate antioxidant
vitamins ( vitamins E, C,, etc., you-all know the drill). And maybe
Arginine... It's what I do, just in case..


Dr P

Even when I was a kid, people thought there was a connection between male pattern baldness and heart disease (and I think people thought that WAY before I was even born). So indirectly, maybe you have a point?

Also, coconut oil is a saturated fat but I always thought that stuff was good for us!!?? :? (I know for a while there the corn oil manufacturers were trying to tell us coconut oil was bad for us. However, I never heard that before their possibly "crooked blitz" so to speak. )

Same for red palm oil and butter fat also IIRC. There's some good stuff in those fats IMHO. I eat WAY more olive oil though. Just look at my stomach!! :lol: :lol: :shock:

 

[docj077]

I'm not going to get too lost in the science. There appears to be a wealth of information suggesting that increased 5 alpha reductase/DHT is linked to baldness. You don't agree.

There appears to be enough information to suggest that increased cholesterol is also linked to baldness. you proabably dont agree.

You probably dont agree that rural japanese have less male pattern baldness than urban japanese and american japanese.

There is also information form actual patients that decreased DHT levels can be associated with hair loss, as well.

I have not read anything that suggests that increased cholesterol is associated specificially with hair loss. There are numerous diseases associated with hair loss. High cholesterol can be associated with increased hormone synthesis and increased DHT levels. High cholesterol can also be associated with arterial disease. High cholesterol on it's own in the body does not directly impact hair loss in any way.

As for the Japanese, the Westernization of their diet has also led to certain urban meals being left out of their urban and American diets. You can't just assume that they've suddenly gained a single factor when they Westernized their diets and that's the bulk of their problem. The Japanese diet was once filled with soy products and phytoestrogens. However, the Westernization of their diet has led to a decrease in many of these products. It's not surprising that male pattern baldness is occurring in a population that is no longer protected by their diet.

I think its safe to say that 'increased DHT levels is much more commonly associated with hair loss and baldness than 'decreased'.

But you said in your earlier post that baldness isn't caused by DHT and now you are saying that soy protected the Japanese when we all know that 5-alpha reductase inibited by soy.

Make up your mind. In ur opinion does increased 5 alpha reductase/DHT cause baldness in genetically susceptiable individuals?

It doesn't matter what your levels of DHT are until they fall below a certain threshold that decreases cellular signaling enough to allow hair regrowth or growth.

DHT is the initial step in hair loss, but it's not the cause. Downstream mediators that are increased due to DHT's binding of the androgen receptors are what causes hair loss. TGF-beta specifically.

Smad-7 has also been shown to increase secondary to increased TGF-beta. Smad-7 downregulates the TGF-beta receptor while also appearing to encourage the cellular transition to sebaceous glands.

Microscopically, prolonged lack of treatment for male pattern baldness causes perifollicular fibrosis secondary to increased collagen deposition (TGF-beta mediated), the movement of the hair follicle from the dermis into the epidermis causing poor nutrition and miniaturization, and increased sebaceous gland creation (Smad-7 mediated apparently).

The science of hair loss has moved beyond simple dietary considerations. The human body makes cholesterol, so even if you remove all of it from your diet, you'll still have some in your blood. It's absolutely required for sex hormone synthesis and cell membrane maintenance. You can not and should not remove all cholesterol from your diet. With regards to fatty acids, you can remove those, as well, but they don't cause hair loss. The last time I had a lipid panel performed on me, my LDL was 100 and my triglycerides were 35. Both values are quite good and I have a receding hairline, so that pretty much rules out diet. As for my blood sugar, that was 80, which is excellent and demonstrates well controlled insulin levels.

So, it's not insulin, it's not cholesterol, and it's not fat. There are people here who are strict vegans with hair loss, so you need to find a better theory.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

You're going too far into the science of it though and not looking at more basic aspects.

If what you're saying is true then why have increased DHT levels been recorded in balding men?

forget the smad stuff, thats just the result of DHT binding. What you need to look at is what causes DHT to rise and what makes it bind all over sudden/.

 

[docj077]

You're going too far into the science of it though and not looking at more basic aspects.

If what you're saying is true then why have increased DHT levels been recorded in balding men?

forget the smad stuff, thats just the result of DHT binding. What you need to look at is what causes DHT to rise and what makes it bind all over sudden/.

There is nothing basic about male pattern baldness. It's a multifactorial disease.

DHT exists in high concentrations as a fetus as it's the hormone responsible for the development of the external genitalia. It also spikes after birth for a while and then during puberty.

Obviously a simple rise in DHT is not responsible for male pattern baldness as this occurs numerous other times through the lifetime of a male. It's the sustained exposure to DHT at high concentrations that causes male pattern baldness in susceptible individuals.

 

[abcdefg]

Docj are you a doctor? Why not get a job doing research or something if you know this much about cellular biology and such?

Whats the best way to safely lower or stop the downstream effects of tgf-beta? Im scared of propecia I love my dht and I dont want to mess up my hormonal system.

 

[Bryan]

IIRC, cholesterol is used to produce pregnenlone, which is the precursor to most (maybe all?) other hormones.

DHT is not directly produced from cholesterol. It's produced from the 5AR enzymes.

I think, (IIRC), cholesterol then pregnenolone, then other hormones, one path of which is - dhea, then testosterone/estrogen, then dht from testosterone via 5AR enzymes. There are other paths but, to get to dht, I think this is pretty close. Bryan?

Yep. That's it.

The 5AR enzymes are "produced" by one of our chromosomes and it is a dominant trait IIRC. I don't see how that has anything to do with cholesterol? Bryan?

The two 5AR enzymes are coded for by two separate genes, and their production has nothing to do with cholesterol.

It sounds to me like whoever wrote the silliness on that Web site about how sunlight supposedly turns cholesterol into 5AR possibly confused DHT with vitamin D! Sunlight does convert 7-dehydrocholesterol in the epidermis into vitamin D, and it wouldn't surprise me if the author somehow mistook that for DHT and 5a-reductase! :lol: That's why I'm always asking for legitimate medical sources, not this silliness that you frequently see on Web sites that are intended for a lay audience.

If I'm basically correct in the above paragraphs, you can see dht is far removed from cholesterol. Although, IIRC, you do need cholesterol to produce hormones? Bryan?

Well, all sex hormones (including DHT) ultimately come FROM cholesterol, but as you pointed out before, there are several intervening steps along the way. But 5a-reductase is a separate product manufactured directly by cells, and coded for by genes.

Bryan

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

There is nothing basic about male pattern baldness. It's a multifactorial disease.

DHT exists in high concentrations as a fetus as it's the hormone responsible for the development of the external genitalia. It also spikes after birth for a while and then during puberty.

Obviously a simple rise in DHT is not responsible for male pattern baldness as this occurs numerous other times through the lifetime of a male. It's the sustained exposure to DHT at high concentrations that causes male pattern baldness in susceptible individuals.[/quote]

But you know when it spikes at puberty 96% of all men suffer some degree of hair loss hence a 21 year olds hairline is different from a 12 year olds hair.

I believe rise in DHT does cause baldness/hairloss and that it does not have to be sustained that long for it to happpen. In fact with enough DHT i feel this can happen in one hair cycle hence the Telogen Effluvium precipitating baldness.

Which brings me to the point of what causes DHT at high concentrations. the answer to this imo is cooked fat which increases alpha reductase activity and then DHT activity.

We are never going to stop the SMAD and beta stuff, thats just what happens after DHT binds in a genetically susceptible individual. there are prolly a number of other things happening we dont even know about.

Out best bet is to keep DHT/reductase levels normal through the correct diet and maintenance of hormonal balance.

 

[michael barry]

Dammitletmein keeps bringing this up,

"Which brings me to the point of what causes DHT at high concentrations. the answer to this imo is cooked fat which increases alpha reductase activity and then DHT activity"


Cite a medical reference for that, Ive never heard it "claimed". And I dont mean some internet Doctor's website............I mean a scientific experiment proving it.