Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[DammitLetMeIn]

Re: Cooked Fat = DHT (Dehydrotestosterone) = Baldness

Dr Michael Colgan states that cooked fat is the key raiser of DHT and that anyone wishing to lower DHT should avoid animal fat.

Can you post a medical reference or citation for that claim about "cooked fat" and DHT?

Bryan

I have seen many which state that cooked fat pushes up 5 alpha reductase which creates DHT.

Can you post a few of those?

Reprinted from Good Medicine, No. 2, Spring 1996.

High serum cholesterol levels are known to increase 5 alpha reductase activity and increase binding of testosterone and DHT at receptor sites.

I'm looking for an actual MEDICAL REFERENCE OR CITATION, not just something that you found on some health site. There are all kinds of claims made on those kinds of sites, some of which are dubious.

Studies have shown that diets rich with animal fats cause excessive amounts of testosterone to be released into the blood stream. Similarly, people who ate diets low in fat had significantly less testosterone released in their system.

http://www.purehealthandbeauty.com/nutr ... /tips.html

Again, I'm looking for MEDICAL REFERENCES OR CITATIONS, not just quotes from health Web sites.

Bryan

The medical citations I have are from increased 5 alpha reductase/DHT in the prostate due to fat. I have seen some on google for hair but they require passwords to enter the medical sites.

A lot of those health site quotes are made by doctors.

 

[SkylineGTR]

gotta love speculation and theories.

No clinical trials or actual tests done. Then its all hear say.

Anyone can claim to be a nutritionist without a degree. Dieticians on the other hand need one. Doctors make false claims and diagnoses everyday because they think because they have MD or DO or PHD in front of their name that they can do no wrong.

My dad is a hardcore carnivore and meat eater and he isn't bald whatsoever. I on the other hand eat fairly healthy and cook for myself all the time. not to mention my g/f went to school for being a dietitian. And I started balding early at a bad rate. As is on par with my mothers side and the males in her family.

Everyones body is different. Whats good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

gotta love speculation and theories.

No clinical trials or actual tests done. Then its all hear say.

Anyone can claim to be a nutritionist without a degree. Dieticians on the other hand need one. Doctors make false claims and diagnoses everyday because they think because they have MD or DO or PHD in front of their name that they can do no wrong.

My dad is a hardcore carnivore and meat eater and he isn't bald whatsoever. I on the other hand eat fairly healthy and cook for myself all the time. not to mention my g/f went to school for being a dietitian. And I started balding early at a bad rate. As is on par with my mothers side and the males in her family.

Everyones body is different. Whats good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

yes, but ur dad prolly isn't genetically susceptible. We're talking about individuals who are geneticaly susceptible.

 

[docj077]

Why our DHT/5alpha reductase rise up then? its GOT to be diet

and Dr Michael Colgan says all animal meats are loaded with the potential for creating DHT. so yeah I'm cutting out eating dead animals altogether for a while. soy is a good look tho.

will let y'll know how i get on

The type of mutation that causes a defective androgen receptor gene is cumulative throughout the generations, so each following generation will potentially have male pattern baldness that is worse than the previous generation. Just like any other disease with a triplet repeat mutation.

The genes for cancer are said to be inherited. That does not mean its going to happen. ITs patently obvious the way we live our lives through environment and diet is what turns the offending genes on and off.

E.g. look at the guy who goes bald within 6 months after having hair his
whole life.

Using your theory, it was 'just his time' whereas its more than likely something he's done which has caused the change.



Baldness
Hair loss is genetically determined, both for men and women, but foods may well affect how early in life it occurs. Harvard researchers found that men with the highest blood levels of a compound in the blood called insulin-like growth factor-1, are more likely to go bald. IGF-1 is found in milk and studies suggest that it passes into the human bloodstream of milk drinkers. Women with high insulin levels are also more likely to have male pattern baldness. High-fat, low-fibre diets interfere with insulin’s actions, forcing the body to make more and more insulin to compensate.

http://www.viva.org.uk/valentine/vava.html

Dude, diet and baldness are inextricably linked in susceptible individuals and 'fat' is the key factor.

You need to slow down a bit and stop with the conspiracy theories. It doesn't help anyone around here.

You seem to forget that IGF-1 is a pro-growth factor in the hair follicle. High levels of IGF-1 are likely to imply that there are increased levels of growth hormone in the bloodstream. You also seem to forget that the insulin receptor and the IGF-1 receptor are so structurally similar that IGF-1 can bind to both the insulin receptor and the IGF-1 receptor. So, any large increase in IGF-1 will increase hair growth and shedding, but will not cause hair loss.

Also, when it comes to cancer you are way, way, way off base. proto-oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes are inherited, but they are also a part of the normal physiology of human beings. Proto-oncogenes often code for specific receptors that bind pro-growth molecules. Tumor suppressor genes are often involved in DNA repair and cell apoptosis. Incredible events are required to damage the DNA enough to allow oncogene activation and tumor suppressor gene depression. It's also important to note that the most common cancers are typically not inherited.


If you truly think that high fat and low fiber diets interfere with the actions of insulin, I'd be interested to know what you think that mechanism is and how it works in the human body. I'd also be interested to know exactly which areas of the processes regulated by insulin you feel are inhibited, because there are a lot of them.

 

[docj077]

Re: Cooked Fat = DHT (Dehydrotestosterone) = Baldness

A lot of those health site quotes are made by doctors.

That doesn't mean they are good doctors, nor does it mean that they are board certified in the area they are discussing. There are a lot of researchers on the internet that make outrageous claims, as well.

If any molecule in the human body is capable of causing hair loss, it's working synergistically with DHT and not by itself.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

You need to slow down a bit and stop with the conspiracy theories. It doesn't help anyone around here.

You seem to forget that IGF-1 is a pro-growth factor in the hair follicle. High levels of IGF-1 are likely to imply that there are increased levels of growth hormone in the bloodstream. You also seem to forget that the insulin receptor and the IGF-1 receptor are so structurally similar that IGF-1 can bind to both the insulin receptor and the IGF-1 receptor. So, any large increase in IGF-1 will increase hair growth and shedding, but will not cause hair loss.

Also, when it comes to cancer you are way, way, way off base. proto-oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes are inherited, but they are also a part of the normal physiology of human beings. Proto-oncogenes often code for specific receptors that bind pro-growth molecules. Tumor suppressor genes are often involved in DNA repair and cell apoptosis. Incredible events are required to damage the DNA enough to allow oncogene activation and tumor suppressor gene depression. It's also important to note that the most common cancers are typically not inherited.


If you truly think that high fat and low fiber diets interfere with the actions of insulin, I'd be interested to know what you think that mechanism is and how it works in the human body. I'd also be interested to know exactly which areas of the processes regulated by insulin you feel are inhibited, because there are a lot of them.[/quote]

I'm not going to get too lost in the science. There appears to be a wealth of information suggesting that increased 5 alpha reductase/DHT is linked to baldness. You don't agree.

There appears to be enough information to suggest that increased cholesterol is also linked to baldness. you proabably dont agree.

You probably dont agree that rural japanese have less male pattern baldness than urban japanese and american japanese.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Studies have shown that diets rich with animal fats cause excessive amounts of testosterone to be released into the blood stream. Similarly, people who ate diets low in fat had significantly less testosterone released in their system. High levels of testosterone directly affect the amount of hair loss a person experiences. Research also indicates that high-fat diets limit vital protein binding globulins. These globulins keep testosterone inactive in the body until it is required. A bloodstream without such globulins means that more testosterone is ready to be transformed by the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase (present in hair glands) into DHT. With larger amounts of testosterone circulating in the blood, oil glands can increase activity, thereby providing the system with more harmful DHT. Interestingly enough, areas that frequently have problems with balding contain larger oil glands than areas not associated with balding.

http://www.purehealthandbeauty.com/nutr ... /tips.html

what is your opinion of this?

and do you eat cooked fat?

 

[docj077]

I'm not going to get too lost in the science. There appears to be a wealth of information suggesting that increased 5 alpha reductase/DHT is linked to baldness. You don't agree.

There appears to be enough information to suggest that increased cholesterol is also linked to baldness. you proabably dont agree.

You probably dont agree that rural japanese have less male pattern baldness than urban japanese and american japanese.

There is also information fromm actual patients that decreased DHT levels can be associated with hair loss, as well.

I have not read anything that suggests that increased cholesterol is associated specificially with hair loss. There are numerous diseases associated with hair loss. High cholesterol can be associated with increased hormone synthesis and increased DHT levels. High cholesterol can also be associated with arterial disease. High cholesterol on it's own in the body does not directly impact hair loss in any way.

As for the Japanese, the Westernization of their diet has also led to certain urban meals being left out of their urban and American diets. You can't just assume that they've suddenly gained a single factor when they Westernized their diets and that's the bulk of their problem. The Japanese diet was once filled with soy products and phytoestrogens. However, the Westernization of their diet has led to a decrease in many of these products. It's not surprising that male pattern baldness is occurring in a population that is no longer protected by their diet.

 

[docj077]

Studies have shown that diets rich with animal fats cause excessive amounts of testosterone to be released into the blood stream. Similarly, people who ate diets low in fat had significantly less testosterone released in their system. High levels of testosterone directly affect the amount of hair loss a person experiences. Research also indicates that high-fat diets limit vital protein binding globulins. These globulins keep testosterone inactive in the body until it is required. A bloodstream without such globulins means that more testosterone is ready to be transformed by the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase (present in hair glands) into DHT. With larger amounts of testosterone circulating in the blood, oil glands can increase activity, thereby providing the system with more harmful DHT. Interestingly enough, areas that frequently have problems with balding contain larger oil glands than areas not associated with balding.

http://www.purehealthandbeauty.com/nutr ... /tips.html

what is your opinion of this?

and do you eat cooked fat?

You're referring to increased hormone synthesis secondary to increased cholesterol (I'm not sure if this has ever been proven) and you're also referring to SHBG, which is the protein required for binding hormones like testosterone and sequestering them.

I'd also like to see a study that links high cholesterol to increased testosterone and the high testosterone to increased sebaceous gland secretions.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

I'm not going to get too lost in the science. There appears to be a wealth of information suggesting that increased 5 alpha reductase/DHT is linked to baldness. You don't agree.

There appears to be enough information to suggest that increased cholesterol is also linked to baldness. you proabably dont agree.

You probably dont agree that rural japanese have less male pattern baldness than urban japanese and american japanese.

There is also information form actual patients that decreased DHT levels can be associated with hair loss, as well.

I have not read anything that suggests that increased cholesterol is associated specificially with hair loss. There are numerous diseases associated with hair loss. High cholesterol can be associated with increased hormone synthesis and increased DHT levels. High cholesterol can also be associated with arterial disease. High cholesterol on it's own in the body does not directly impact hair loss in any way.

As for the Japanese, the Westernization of their diet has also led to certain urban meals being left out of their urban and American diets. You can't just assume that they've suddenly gained a single factor when they Westernized their diets and that's the bulk of their problem. The Japanese diet was once filled with soy products and phytoestrogens. However, the Westernization of their diet has led to a decrease in many of these products. It's not surprising that male pattern baldness is occurring in a population that is no longer protected by their diet.

I think its safe to say that 'increased DHT levels is much more commonly associated with hair loss and baldness than 'decreased'.

But you said in your earlier post that baldness isn't caused by DHT and now you are saying that soy protected the Japanese when we all know that 5-alpha reductase inibited by soy.

Make up your mind. In ur opinion does increased 5 alpha reductase/DHT cause baldness in genetically susceptiable individuals?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Studies have shown that diets rich with animal fats cause excessive amounts of testosterone to be released into the blood stream. Similarly, people who ate diets low in fat had significantly less testosterone released in their system. High levels of testosterone directly affect the amount of hair loss a person experiences. Research also indicates that high-fat diets limit vital protein binding globulins. These globulins keep testosterone inactive in the body until it is required. A bloodstream without such globulins means that more testosterone is ready to be transformed by the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase (present in hair glands) into DHT. With larger amounts of testosterone circulating in the blood, oil glands can increase activity, thereby providing the system with more harmful DHT. Interestingly enough, areas that frequently have problems with balding contain larger oil glands than areas not associated with balding.

http://www.purehealthandbeauty.com/nutr ... /tips.html

what is your opinion of this?

and do you eat cooked fat?

You're referring to increased hormone synthesis secondary to increased cholesterol (I'm not sure if this has ever been proven) and you're also referring to SHBG, which is the protein required for binding hormones like testosterone and sequestering them.

I'd also like to see a study that links high cholesterol to increased testosterone and the high testosterone to increased sebaceous gland secretions.

well check my cholesterol thread. I have also read just that in other sources. The areas with male pattern baldness have bigger oil glands and this was linked to a high fat diet.

here:

Cholesterol Accumulation
Cholesterol which has been known to produce the enzyme 5 alpha reductase can also accumulate in the skin and scalp. When this cholesterol accumulation comes in contact with sunlight it produces the enzyme 5 alpha reductase directly in the scalp. Since the hair follicles contain testosterone, DHT is then produced in the skin and on the scalp. Since the ultimate goal is to block DHT from reaching the hair follicles, it is very important to keep cholesterol from accumulating in the scalp.

http://www.add-hair.com/hair-loss-causes.htm

I don't think theres a huge advantage for researchers in the US to study such things but Japanese researchers look into it.

 

[Guest]

Do you think DHT itself makes people go bald? Or is there a genetic factor? I beleive the latter.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Do you think DHT itself makes people go bald? Or is there a genetic factor? I beleive the latter.

both.

some people aren't genetically susceptible BUT

in those that are, increased DHT does the damage.

Fats increase 5 alpha reductase and increase the DHT

 

[The Gardener]

Then explain why Dr Weil is bald.

Or this fine fellow.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

WEils diet:

Sources of saturated fats include butter, cream, cheese, and full-fat dairy products, unskinned chicken, fatty meats and products made with coconut and palm-kernel oils

^^^
eating that every day would cause an increase in DHT

 

[The Gardener]

No he doesn't.

He specifically recommends REDUCING intake of saturated fats. Here is his diet suggestion regarding fat, and the web citation from which it came.

On a 2,000-calorie-a-day diet, 600 calories can come from fat--that is, about 67 g. This should be in a ratio of 1:2:1 of saturated to monounsaturated to polyunsaturated fat.

REDUCE your intake of saturated fat by eating less butter, cream, cheese and other full-fat dairy products, unskinned chicken, fatty meats and products made with coconut and palm-kernel oils.

Use extra-virgin olive oil as a main cooking oil. If you want a neutral-tasting oil, use expeller-pressed organic canola oil. High-oleic versions of sunflower and safflower oil are also acceptable.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 96,00.html

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

well here it says:

http://calorielab.com/news/2005/10/12/d ... ness-diet/


He recommends 1/5 of the fats in the diet to be from those sources and hes a chunky guy so I'm assuming he's ate a little too much himself

 

[The Gardener]

Here is what the article says:

Fat: Dr. Weil passes along the following tips about fats:

For those who eat 2,000 calories a day, 600 should be from fat, about 67 grams, with no more than a fifth of that from saturated fats
Sources of saturated fats include butter, cream, cheese, and full-fat dairy products, unskinned chicken, fatty meats and products made with coconut and palm-kernel oils
Your main cooking oil should be extra-virgin olive oil; for neutral oil, go with expeller-pressed organic canola oil, or high-oleic versions of sunflower and safflower oil (avoid regular safflower and sunflower oils, corn oil, cottonseed oil and mixed vegetable oils)
Never use margarine, vegetable shortening, or other partially hydrogenated fats (which contain trans fat); and read the labels of processed foods to avoid foods made with these products
Remember that healthy fats are contained in avocados and nuts, especially walnuts, cashews, and almonds
For omega-3 fatty acids, eat salmon, sardines, herring, black cod, hempseeds, flaxseeds and walnuts

He's NOT telling people that eating saturated fats is good, he is telling them they should LIMIT saturated fats, and then goes on to write the list you cited NOT as a guide to what you should eat, but rather a guide to the kinds of fats you should be avoiding.

Nice try at pulling a quote out of context.

Resorting to distortion and untruth is pretty pathetic.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Here is what the article says:

Fat: Dr. Weil passes along the following tips about fats:

For those who eat 2,000 calories a day, 600 should be from fat, about 67 grams, with no more than a fifth of that from saturated fats
Sources of saturated fats include butter, cream, cheese, and full-fat dairy products, unskinned chicken, fatty meats and products made with coconut and palm-kernel oils
Your main cooking oil should be extra-virgin olive oil; for neutral oil, go with expeller-pressed organic canola oil, or high-oleic versions of sunflower and safflower oil (avoid regular safflower and sunflower oils, corn oil, cottonseed oil and mixed vegetable oils)
Never use margarine, vegetable shortening, or other partially hydrogenated fats (which contain trans fat); and read the labels of processed foods to avoid foods made with these products
Remember that healthy fats are contained in avocados and nuts, especially walnuts, cashews, and almonds
For omega-3 fatty acids, eat salmon, sardines, herring, black cod, hempseeds, flaxseeds and walnuts

He's NOT telling people that eating saturated fats is good, he is telling them they should LIMIT saturated fats, and then goes on to write the list you cited NOT as a guide to what you should eat, but rather a guide to the kinds of fats you should be avoiding.

Nice try at pulling a quote out of context.

Resorting to distortion and untruth is pretty pathetic.

I agree but im not distorting. He specifically says that 1/5 of the fats in ur diet should come from saturated fat. and im assuming those are the sources because thats what that website says.

im interested in truth, believe me. a vegan diet cuts prostate cancer massively.

 

[The Gardener]

I agree but im not distorting. He specifically says that 1/5 of the fats in ur diet should come from saturated fat. and im assuming those are the sources because thats what that website says.

Nice "after the fact" edit. Look at all of your previous postings above, and on other threads about this. Your initial response was to the effect of "well Dr Weil supports eating saturated fats" and only after I challenged this and cited the actual text, now you went back and added in this "1/5" disclaimer.

You have to admit that you were intellectually dishonest in this debate, and rather than admitting that perhaps you made a poorly backed claim, in fact an incorrect claim, you are doing after the fact edits to change your words.

Weil does not encourage people to eat 1/5 of all their total fats in the form of saturated fats. He is telling people NOT to eat saturated fats, and as a realistic goal, people should try to keep them under 1/5 of their total fat intake.

Are you willing to admit that you made a misquote here, or are you going to be a weasel and try to continue to perpetuate what was, pretty much, a lie?