Sitri Conference 04.14.2018: Brotzu Presentation - Updates Only

[INT]

Soooo... what are the conclusions

 

[kawnshawn]

Soooo... what are the conclusions

In regards to Brotzu, only two pics from trial were shown, one man and woman. Man appeared to have been maybe in his 50's with late stage hair loss. 6 month results had some little noticeable regrowth but nothing close the hype people were hoping. It was honestly comparable to some minoxidil results. It was only six month results and only 1ml a day to cover scalp so im interested to see what the differnce would be at a 12 month mark with more volume of lotion everyday.

As it stands now it seems like it could be a good complimentary treatment to go along with the big 3 or whatever you're on. Might have good synergy with minoxidil. If they do plan to bring it to market which seems will happen then they are going to need to release more trials results. Until then all you can do is wait.

 

[INT]

In regards to Brotzu, only two pics from trial were shown, one man and woman. Man appeared to have been maybe in his 50's with late stage hair loss. 6 month results had some little noticeable regrowth but nothing close the hype people were hoping. It was honestly comparable to some minoxidil results. It was only six month results and only 1ml a day to cover scalp so im interested to see what the differnce would be at a 12 month mark with more volume of lotion everyday.

As it stands now it seems like it could be a good complimentary treatment to go along with the big 3 or whatever you're on. Might have good synergy with minoxidil. If they do plan to bring it to market which seems will happen then they are going to need to release more trials results. Until then all you can do is wait.

Thanks!

So why is everything bitching like it is the end of the world?

 

[kawnshawn]

Thanks!

So why is everything bitching like it is the end of the world?

In his independent trial, Brotzu remarked about how some participants saw 5 years of regrowth. Now some people might have extremely slow hair loss and might lose only a Norwood in 5 years. 5 years of hairloss is different for everyone. People online took the quote as literal and definite, thinking that 5 years meant crazy regrowth and could reverse several Norwoods. People online are gulliable so of course it spread like wildfire and the hype exploded without a lot of people being grounded to reality. It didn't help that there were constant rumors and that people had the mentality of kids spreading cringey memes. So you had people thinking it was gonna be some crazy break through when in reality it was more along the line of another growth stimulant like minoxidil. Presentation comes and it doesn't hold up to peoples ridiclous standards and hype comes crashing down.

 

[PeggyPeterson]

Estriol - I don't truly know the full risk profile as I've only been experimenting on it briefly. Might affect fertility etc. I only put it high risk because its isolated use is an unknown in hetero men. (In women it's almost zero risk.) At least it's a natural hormone so probably not too bad.

I’ll be starting this soon when it is delivered. I recall you mentioning that your mother is also on this, if it is not too personal, has she had any sides?

Would this be good on its own or in combo? Still awaiting blood test but I’m a female with diffuse thinning. My thoughts are that there might be some sides in the long term.

I hate to admit this, but I feel you know much more than my dermatologist about hair loss, or perhaps they’re more conservative and prefer tried and tested treatment options.

 

[PeggyPeterson]

I don't know. Might work. Might not work that well. It's only targeting one downstream mediator of inflammation. My full thoughts are here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...than-enzalutamide.105402/page-60#post-1649939

So your thoughts are that there may also be receptors other than PGD2 that causes miniaturisation? So if PGD2 was the prime and only cause, you’d recommend?

 

[kiwipilu]

So your thoughts are that there may also be receptors other than PGD2 that causes miniaturisation? So if PGD2 was the prime and only cause, you’d recommend?

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...actors-in-hair-loss-and-hair-regrowth.109460/

 

[kawnshawn]

So your thoughts are that there may also be receptors other than PGD2 that causes miniaturisation? So if PGD2 was the prime and only cause, you’d recommend?

If PGD2 is the end all be all for Androgenetic Alopecia then a PGD2 receptor antagonist would be the solution. That would setipiprant, fevipiprant, etc. Dr. Cots, the man behind the discovery about PGD2 attacking follicles, has stated that iirc around 40% of those won't have benefits from PGD2 receptor antagonist for hairloss due to genetics.

Personally its worked for me and a few others but there are others it hasn't worked for.

 

[GotHair?]

So I saw the pictures and honestly 6 months after picture is almost identical to the one before treatment.
Time to let this one go.

 

[IdealForehead]

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...actors-in-hair-loss-and-hair-regrowth.109460/

Thanks for finding that again. Yeah, this summarized well why i don't think PGD2 inhibitors are a great idea and why i'm skeptical they will be incredibly or broadly effective.

If they're only partially effective they'll make good adjuncts. But if i was a betting man, i'd bet topical desloratadine would give equivalent results for a fraction of the cost and risk. Antihistamines block more components of the downstream cascade than PGD2 inhibitors do.

Any time youre working downstream from androgen binding it's a potentially losing battle you're fighting. Ie. Trying to mop up a mess once it's already been made vs. just trying not to make a mess in the first place.

 

[Murkey Thumb]

Thanks for finding that again. Yeah, this summarized well why i don't think PGD2 inhibitors are a great idea and why i'm skeptical they will be incredibly or broadly effective.

If they're only partially effective they'll make good adjuncts. But if i was a betting man, i'd bet topical desloratadine would give equivalent results for a fraction of the cost and risk. Antihistamines block more components of the downstream cascade than PGD2 inhibitors do.

Any time youre working downstream from androgen binding it's a potentially losing battle you're fighting. Ie. Trying to mop up a mess once it's already been made vs. just trying not to make a mess in the first place.

So how would you make a topical desloratadine? Would it be as simple as crushing up some Loratadine pills in distilled water or would i need to add a DMSO for absorption?

 

[IdealForehead]

So how would you make a topical desloratadine? Would it be as simple as crushing up some Loratadine pills in distilled water or would i need to add a DMSO for absorption?

Loratadine is a prodrug to desloratadine. Meaning loratadine is not biologically active until your liver converts it to desloratadine. Desloratadine is already biologically active so should work well as a topical.

I mix it by adding 0.4 grams to 40 ml of minoxidil or a custom vehicle of 50% propanediol, 30% ethanol, 20% water.

I order on alibaba from geekee biochem but i still haven't had it tested yet so for all I know I'm putting cyanide on my head. But geekee seems legit.

 

[Vinc2097]

hey !

The primary useful ingredient in Brotzu is s-equol, as described here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-and-the-primary-ingredient-in-brotzu.113209/

However, of the two types of equol, s-equol is the weaker one for hair. A racemic equol (r-equol & s-equol) topical would be far more effective. Though this added effectiveness is coming from the 5-AR downregulatory effect of r-equol. In prostate studies, r-equol does very well at shrinking prostates. This is another variation of how finasteride/dutasteride work.

But s-equol by itself should be expected to be weak and this is no surprise.

I have long thought Brotzu was a meme/joke on this forum. People talking about "Lord Brotzu", etc. It's unfortunate some people actually believed the hype. All that's in it is:

- s-equol - almost no effect against prostates or skin, and unproven for hair.
- DGLA - a PGE pre-cursor, selected primarily so they could call this a "natural product" and escape regulation.
- carnitine - an amino acid for which I am aware of one in vitro study showing a stimulatory effect, but unproven on actual heads.

This was never going to be a "game changer" for the hair loss industry, and while I found the enormous thread on it and memes funny, it's unfortunate some people truly didn't get what this was or wasn't and ended up with unrealistic expectations.

That said, there is definitely some improvement from before-after in those pics. It suggests in my opinion just how much more effective racemic equol mixed into 5% minoxidil would be as an "alternative hair loss solution".

If I were to propose such an "alternative hair loss solution", it would be:

- 5% minoxidil base
- 5% niacinamide for anti-sebum, anti-inflammatory, pro-collagen effect
- 1% desloratadine (anti-histamine)
- 1% racemic equol

I would strongly bet that would beat Brotzu's formulation head to head.

hey i hear a lot these days about niacinamide but can't find anything good about it on google when i search ''niacinamide for hair loss'' ..etc..

are you using it ? is it liquid or powder which you mix into a topical ? thnaks..

 

[sunchyme1]

@IdealForehead are you a millionaire yet?

 

[Vinc2097]

AGGRESSIVE TREATMENTS
ie. Things to possibly try after finasteride and 5% minoxidil fail or are not acceptable.

Anti-androgens

• Dutasteride 0.5 mg per day
• Spironolactone 100-200 mg per day (requires blood monitoring of electrolytes, technically)
• Cyproterone 25-100 mg per day
• Topical bicalutamide/darolutamide/enzalutamide (whatever you can get and dissolve in sufficient quantities - I only know daro since that's what I use)
• Nizoral cream (if spots are bald enough for it) - full mechanism of action is unknown but likely it is primarily anti-androgenic

Growth Stims

• Oral minoxidil 2.5-5 mg once or twice daily
• Topical minoxidil
• PRP/wounding
• LLLT (though my opinion is mixed on this)

Adjuncts

• Topical desloratadine 1% (anti-histamine)
• Niacinamide 5% (B vitamin)

Estrogens

• Topical racemic equol - though untested - I think it should work well
• Topical estriol - either with a small amount localized to the scalp or applied in sufficient quantity to the general skin to get a full systemic effect

Those are all my personal favorite agents. I think it would be almost impossible for any man with androgenic alopecia to go bald with even one good agent (for them - trial and error) combined from each of these four classes.

There are so many good and strong ways to disrupt the process of androgenic alopecia, it's not even a matter of it it can be treated. It's just a matter of finding the agents you can best tolerate, and the agents where you feel most comfortable with the unknown long term risks.

The only thing we need to put a "nail in the coffin" for all this is a method to confer DHT resistance to our Norwood hair follicles which researchers are working on. But until then, and until that's proven safe with 5-10 years data, you need to keep your hair if you want it. And there are plenty of ways to do that.

Hey ! about antihistamine :

you talk about desloratadine, using cetirizine right now but i can't find any info about the difference between desloratadine and cetirizine..

 

[IdealForehead]

Hey ! about antihistamine :

you talk about desloratadine, using cetirizine right now but i can't find any info about the difference between desloratadine and cetirizine..

Desloratadine is alcohol stable whereas cetirizine may react with alcohol in the vehicle.

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead are you a millionaire yet?

No. My house is worth over a million but that's just a mortgage i mostly owe.. I spend all my time outside of work reading about hairloss, thinking about jaw surgery, being depressed about women and other various things, and working on nonfinancial hobbbies. No time to really focus on maximizing investing.

 

[Vinc2097]

@IdealForehead ; what about low duta + low dose AI to prevent side effect ?

and minoxidil really have aging property on me ! and hypertrichosis

by aging property you means good or bad sides ?

 

[Vinc2097]

Desloratadine is alcohol stable whereas cetirizine may react with alcohol in the vehicle.

oh okay !.. I was using 60 cetirizine tablets filtered in 60 ml tap water + PG

I dont want to take too much of your time so do you have a link about desloratadine and how to make a topical out of it.

It seems like nobody is talking about it on this forum.

 

[sunchyme1]

No. My house is worth over a million but that's just a mortgage i mostly owe.. I spend all my time outside of work reading about hairloss, thinking about jaw surgery, being depressed about women and other various things, and working on nonfinancial hobbbies. No time to really focus on maximizing investing.

ahhhhh common man gives us a little tiny clue what you do

I NEED TO KNOW