Perifollicular Fibrosis - Can be reverted?

[Bryan]

Bryan, there is no doubt in my mind that that is an exemplary response. Only an idiot would say it wasn't. The question though, is is that a typical response? And we know it isn't. Not to single Dr Proctor out though, because everyone does that.

No it's not a typical response, and yes everyone does that.

I've said for a long time that whenever before-and-after pictures of someone using a hairloss drug or product are posted by a company or even a private individual, the pictures should be clearly labeled as to whether it's a typical or non-typical (or whatever) response. That goes for Dr. Proctor, too.

I have a feeling that Proxiphen is great. The problem is though Bryan, that you don't get much Proxiphen per vial or whatever, and it's $100 a pop. Now for people like me who are diffusers who have to spread the crap over an NW4 area and have some of it get stuck in hair, instead of just spreading it over bare hairline and temples, it's unaffordable. I can't afford to spend $2000 a year(which is prob what it would cost me to use enough to cover my area) on just one treatment.

Dr. Proctor has talked about that for years on alt.baldspot, and his position has always been that you don't NEED to apply Proxiphen to every last bit of your thinning areas. He says there's enough Proxiphen per vial to last a month even for diffuse loss, if the user takes reasonable care to spread it out thinly.

Funny, isn't it, how Dr. Proctor has always been such a maverick in this area? He has such a different approach to so many things, compared to others...

 

[Guest]

Bryan, that is still $1200 a year. The question is, now I've managed to get my rogaine use down to half a capful, say. That's $150 a year. Now Proxiphen also contains minoxidil, so stick with me here. Is Proxiphen 8 times more effective than 5% Rogaine foam? I don't think it is. Let's say that it grows 1.5 times as much hair as Rogaine foam due to the other stuff in it. So example, Rogaine foam grows 100 hairs per circular inch or whatever in some time span and Proxiphen grows 150 HPCI. Proxiphen is still not cost effective at that price. It would have to be $500 or less per year for it to be cost effective. Rogaine foam also absorbs within a couple seconds of it due to the high-tech foam vehicle.

Not knocking Proxiphen at all. I am sure it may be anywhere from marginally more effective than Rogaine to moderately more effective, but it is just not cost efficient imo, even if you can get away with only using $100 worth of it a month.

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi guys;

Your chatter is interesting but i saw the photos of the trials of Dutas in 6 months, and it is amazing. I think that are not real because ¿What is the lenght of new hairs? Several centimeters!! Make calculation about the growth rate.

What do you think in this issue?

Armando

 

[Guest]

Armando, I believe the pictures are real. The response is obviously not typical for 6 months, but I have no reason to believe that dutasteride is not capable of that in 1-2% of people who take it. I'm sure there was at least 1 or 2 guys in the trials who was like a thin NW3 who regrew back to a thick NW2. But again, not typical. Almost everyone gets at least maintenance from dutasteride, some get a degree of regrowth(maybe 70% of people do), and a very lucky few get regrowth like you saw in those pictures.

 

[Bryan]

Is Proxiphen 8 times more effective than 5% Rogaine foam? I don't think it is.

Agreed. The treatment of male pattern baldness is a perfect example of an area where the Law of Diminishing Returns applies.

But just for the sake of completeness, I'll also add here that there is always the possibility that because of some its more unusual and arcane ingredients, a given individual _may_ have a distinct positive response to Proxiphen that he couldn't have obtained with anything else, including even unlimited quantities of minoxidil. In such a case as that, the "cost-effectiveness" of Proxiphen would be more of a moot point.

 

[Guest]

Is Proxiphen 8 times more effective than 5% Rogaine foam? I don't think it is.

Agreed. The treatment of male pattern baldness is a perfect example of an area where the Law of Diminishing Returns applies.

But just for the sake of completeness, I'll also add here that there is always the possibility that because of some its more unusual and arcane ingredients, a given individual _may_ have a distinct positive response to Proxiphen that he couldn't have obtained with anything else, including even unlimited doses of minoxidil. In such a case as that, the "cost-effectiveness" of Proxiphen would obviously be a moot point.

Bryan, I will say that I might buy some Proxiphen in a year or so after giving Rogaine foam a year to work. I will probably try applying it to my temples and see if grows anything over what Rogaine foam does. I'd prob give it 3 months. If I don't see anything by then, I'd probably drop it. I definitely wouldn't add it when I just started Rogaine foam though because I won't be able to distinguish results and I'm not gonna spend $1200 a year for life on something that may be doing nothing for me. :hairy:

And I do like Proctor's Nano shampoo, and when it's combined with a pre-wash shampoo, it can be used for $100 or under a year. Now that's cost-effective, and it can complement minoxidil too.

 

[clau]

by the way, high IGF-1 is bad for hair ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... med_docsum

 

[blaze]

Jayman,

How much Dutas did that guy take in the Dutasteride study photos you posted take?

 

[Guest]

Jayman,

How much Dutas did that guy take in the Dutasteride study photos you posted take?

a good question that i don't know the answer to. i would assume 2.5 mg but i'm not sure.

 

[blaze]

Was 2.5mg the standard dose when they did the dutasteride trials?

 

[H2O]

It is NOT a high carb diet that causes male pattern baldness. End of story. In fact, maintaining a consistant high carb (depending on the type of carbs you're eating) diet will keep growth hormone under control, which means insulin levels will be maintained and IGF-1 levels will be kept low.

....so low carb, low fat, and high protein dieting is NOT an effective means of preventing male pattern baldness long term. It's more a matter of what the diet is missing, not what it has in excess.

Also perhaps low calorie diets have some merit here. Low protein is a new one on me, however...

The results of this preliminary study show that lean people on a long-term, low-protein, low-calorie diet or who participate in regular endurance exercise training have lower levels of plasma growth factors and certain hormones such as insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1)....

"We found that people following a low-calorie, low-protein diet have lower IGF-1 than lean athletes who eat a Western diet. This suggests that low protein intake may reduce IGF-1, independent of body weight," he said.

The study is published in the December issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2006/12/07/hscout536486.html

But then at the end of the article we see....

Another recent study contradicted this finding, Trichopoulos said. "At this stage, we should wait for clarification," he said.

So who knows....

 

[squeegee]

Bump!!:wow:

 

[abcdefg]

I dont know I kind of disagree with diet changing the course of male pattern baldness in any significant way. If you look at koreans or some asians many of them have no facial or body hair at very old ages and coincidentally have Norwood 0 teenage hair lines at 40 years old. I see many examples of older men that could pass for 18 that have abnormally little facial hair and I just dont think its a coincidence. I think DHT and T also control facial hair growth in men which also is why women do not get any. I think Koreans just geographically have a different gene pool then our western society and that plays a major role not really there diet that controls that is just a coincidence. Too many examples of balding men with good diets to say that diet is the key. The big sequence of events happens but just focusing on the androgen step.
I think androgens both DHT and maybe T 99.8 percent completely control all hair loss in men. The missing ingredients with our understanding are with the receptors or however the hair interacts with the androgens at the molecular level and relationship to time how lowering the androgens changes the receptors. I also think androgen levels are largely genetic what levels they are at generally and really dont change much short of say someone taking steroids or something major.
If androgens decrease with age and hair loss increases why would that be unless receptors upregulate and become extra sensitive to the remaining androgens?

 

[can'tBeatNature]

I dont know I kind of disagree with diet changing the course of male pattern baldness in any significant way. If you look at koreans or some asians many of them have no facial or body hair at very old ages and coincidentally have Norwood 0 teenage hair lines at 40 years old. I see many examples of older men that could pass for 18 that have abnormally little facial hair and I just dont think its a coincidence. I think DHT and T also control facial hair growth in men which also is why women do not get any. I think Koreans just geographically have a different gene pool then our western society and that plays a major role not really there diet that controls that is just a coincidence. Too many examples of balding men with good diets to say that diet is the key. The big sequence of events happens but just focusing on the androgen step.
I think androgens both DHT and maybe T 99.8 percent completely control all hair loss in men. The missing ingredients with our understanding are with the receptors or however the hair interacts with the androgens at the molecular level and relationship to time how lowering the androgens changes the receptors. I also think androgen levels are largely genetic what levels they are at generally and really dont change much short of say someone taking steroids or something major.
If androgens decrease with age and hair loss increases why would that be unless receptors upregulate and become extra sensitive to the remaining androgens?

Diet has to interplay somehow. Western diet is filled with foods that promote/cause inflammation. And one of the main symptoms in a balding scalp is chronic inflammation. Asian diets are very, very clean and no where near as carbohydrate heavy. Not to mention all the f*****g processed sugars and gmos we got in our sh*t.