Perifollicular Fibrosis - Can be reverted?

[powersam]

docj077 - I see no reply to my statement that nations on high-carb diet are balding much more than those on low-carb diet high in proteins fat and fiber?

Because, it isn't worth a reply. It is NOT a high carb diet that causes male pattern baldness. End of story. In fact, maintaining a consistant high carb (depending on the type of carbs you're eating) diet will keep growth hormone under control, which means insulin levels will be maintained and IGF-1 levels will be kept low.

You really are comparing apples to oranges in terms of diet when you compare a westernized diet to other diets. There are vegetarians on these forums that have been vegetarians for a vast majority of their lives that have male pattern baldness, so low carb, low fat, and high protein dieting is NOT an effective means of preventing male pattern baldness long term. It's more a matter of what the diet is missing, not what it has in excess.

i dont know why you mention vegetarians Docj007 because their carb intake is usually far higher than non-vegetarians.

but thats beside the point. its not about high carb, low carb whatever. its about making sure your foods wont cause excessive insulin spikes. and preferrably keeping the calories to a reasonable level, which many dont. i definately don't think that what our diets are missing has anything to do with it, rather what they have in excess.

Tomas - a quick question, when you refer to 'carbs' do you actually mean to refer to the whole range of carbs, simple and complex, or when you say carbs are you actually talking about potatos and bread? i hope you dont mean atkins though, that retarded diet. anything that wants people to stop eating fruit is idiotic.

dammitletmein posted an interesting study a while back.

http://news.hairlosshelp.com/hair-loss- ... ts-survey/

 

[docj077]

docj077 - I see no reply to my statement that nations on high-carb diet are balding much more than those on low-carb diet high in proteins fat and fiber?

Because, it isn't worth a reply. It is NOT a high carb diet that causes male pattern baldness. End of story. In fact, maintaining a consistant high carb (depending on the type of carbs you're eating) diet will keep growth hormone under control, which means insulin levels will be maintained and IGF-1 levels will be kept low.

You really are comparing apples to oranges in terms of diet when you compare a westernized diet to other diets. There are vegetarians on these forums that have been vegetarians for a vast majority of their lives that have male pattern baldness, so low carb, low fat, and high protein dieting is NOT an effective means of preventing male pattern baldness long term. It's more a matter of what the diet is missing, not what it has in excess.

i dont know why you mention vegetarians Docj007 because their carb intake is usually far higher than non-vegetarians.

but thats beside the point. its not about high carb, low carb whatever. its about making sure your foods wont cause excessive insulin spikes. and preferrably keeping the calories to a reasonable level, which many dont. i definately don't think that what our diets are missing has anything to do with it, rather what they have in excess.

Tomas - a quick question, when you refer to 'carbs' do you actually mean to refer to the whole range of carbs, simple and complex, or when you say carbs are you actually talking about potatos and bread? i hope you dont mean atkins though, that retarded diet. anything that wants people to stop eating fruit is idiotic.

dammitletmein posted an interesting study a while back.

http://news.hairlosshelp.com/hair-loss- ... ts-survey/

Depends on the vegetarian you're referring to. Me personally, my carbohydrate intake was incredibly low when I did the vegan diet for a while as I ate mostly soy rich foods, a lot of vegetables, and few fruits. Typically, the diet is very high in protein, low in fat, and low in carbohydrates when done correctly. Trust me, it made no difference in my hair for the year that I did it.

By the way, DLMI liked to make the comment that it was the fault of insulin that male pattern baldness occurred. Insulin has absolutely nothing to do with male pattern baldness by itself, so focusing on it is wrong. It's the resulting pathophysiology as a result of the insulin spike that is the problem. What I'm referring to is the growth hormone, and thus, somatomedin spike that occurs once insulin spikes.


This really is a pointless argument. Growth hormone can spike, but the whole system is negative regulated by IGF-1 production by the liver and tissues. Plus, many of us here do not show any physiological signs of insulin resistance or obesity. That is what the majority of the studies are based on.

To be honest, I'd be more concerned about the men and women on these forums that are constantly overdosing on multivitamins, because they think that they protect their hair. That is something that is worthy of discussion.

 

[powersam]

totally agree with you on the vitamin megadosing, however that was kinda why i was confused to see you say this.

It's more a matter of what the diet is missing, not what it has in excess.

i'll tell you the reason why i'm so convinced diet has something to do with balding though. 6 sons in my dads family, he and 4 of his brothers are bald and fat in the midsection. one, the third oldest, has a full head of hair and is very skinny. he's skinny because he has coeliac disease, which would be the ultimate protection against insulin resistance as you cant process most glucose spiking foods such as bread. cant process any food for that matter if you eat wheat.

anecdotal i know so not really evidence. but it definately got me thinking.

 

[docj077]

totally agree with you on the vitamin megadosing, however that was kinda why i was confused to see you say this.

It's more a matter of what the diet is missing, not what it has in excess.

i'll tell you the reason why i'm so convinced diet has something to do with balding though. 6 sons in my dads family, he and 4 of his brothers are bald and fat in the midsection. one, the third oldest, has a full head of hair and is very skinny. he's skinny because he has coeliac disease, which would be the ultimate protection against insulin resistance as you cant process most glucose spiking foods such as bread. cant process any food for that matter if you eat wheat.

anecdotal i know so not really evidence. but it definately got me thinking.

That's actually really interesting. Thanks for sharing. I do believe that diet can play a part, as well, but only once you reach a certain unhealthy weight accompanied by a particular degree of insulin resistance. The celiac disease connection is quite interesting and there are other diseases that have fascinated me, as well, when it comes to their relationship to baldness. Did you know that practically every male that has myotonic dystrophy develops frontal baldness?

I do feel like a lot of people on here megadose on vitamins and herbs far too much. In fact, I'd even be willing to go so far as to say that there is a very real possibility that some of us are inhibiting or accelerating the metabolism of some of the drugs that we are taking. When I said that I was concerned about what the diet is missing, I wasn't necessarily talking about vitamins. To me, a healthy diet is of course balanced, but for men with hair loss it really should include black tea and soy products internalized together frequently. I feel as though teas and soy products are what Asian cultures once thrived upon to prevent male pattern baldness and now the removal of those two items is quite likely the main culprit of the increase in the male pattern baldness in the population. It is also important to note that a MAJOR cause of increase in male pattern baldness is likely the integration of European genes into their gene pool during WWII by the Allied occupation. Most people don't take that into account when they sit there and try to explain everything with diet. Diet will not matter if you're suddenly inheriting defective androgen receptors from your Japanese mother.

The above is why I absolutely loathe discussions like this one. Especially, when people start using other cultures as an example. I mean, the same could easily be said about India and men with male pattern baldness there. The source of those genes is quite likely the English occupation.


There are simply too many factors and it is all going to come down to the many actions of androgens no matter how one looks at it, in my opinion.

 

[tomas99]

docj077 - it is not enough to avoid refined starches, sugars and others. It is needed . I always said this. Avoiding certain food is necessary but it is only half of the way.

Btw. vegans do not eat carbs? They do not eat potatoes, pasta, white rice and white bread? Come on...

On conclusion - what are your results? Did you regrowth your hairline? I must say that I rather believe to someone who has achieved great results that someone who did not.

 

[tomas99]

http://www.johnleemd.com/store/estrogen_dom.html

First link Google gave me on Estrogen dominance.

Depression with anxiety or agitation
Fat gain, especially around the abdomen, hips and thighs
Fatigue
Foggy thinking
Mood swings

Hair Loss
Acceleration of the aging process

First are those that many users of finasteride are experiencing. Second are those that you can suffer, too. Acceleration of the aging process is also acceleration of male pattern baldness if you ask.

But yes, you are right Estrogen is great in so we should have some injected because it would be so helpful for our hairloss.

P.S. Do you know what is difference between you and me? I always back up my thought with some proof, but you only talk.

 

[tomas99]

No, Estrogen does not protect your in this this way. Women after menopause have less estrogen, but they also have less progesterone, which is the one that is protective.

I said it earlier - during pregnancy, Progesterone (which protects against estrogens and also against conversion of T to DHT) is at its peak. Women have their best hair when they are pregnant because during this time Progesterone is even 3x and more higher than usual. They do not lose hair and their hair is really thick.

No, estrogen has powerful antioxidant effects. Low estrogen is linked to an increased risk of heart disease in women. Estrogen is elevated during pregnancy and is responsible for preventing miscarriage and promoting fetal maturation. Many, many women actually experience hair loss or T.E. soon after the pregnancy ends due to the fall in estrogen concentration.

In fact, high estrogen during pregnancy is associated with an improvement in skin conditions such as psoriasis. Psoriasis has a similar underlying pathology when compared to male pattern baldness, which is hyperkeratinization of the epidermis.

I believe that you are very wrong when it comes to the effects of estrogens on hair. As I said, estrogens are indirect antagonists of androgen function.

You are simply lying here. Women do not have high estrogens during pregnancy and they do not drop estrogen after pregnancy. They have high PROGESTERONE and after pregnancy PROGESTERONE is dropped. This is simply fact of life and you deny it that you have changed progesterone for estrogen??? :lol:

If only testosterone is causing hairloss, why black men do not suffer from it so much as they have so high T?

 

[tomas99]

docj077 - I see no reply to my statement that nations on high-carb diet are balding much more than those on low-carb diet high in proteins fat and fiber?

Because, it isn't worth a reply. It is NOT a high carb diet that causes male pattern baldness. End of story. In fact, maintaining a consistant high carb (depending on the type of carbs you're eating) diet will keep growth hormone under control, which means insulin levels will be maintained and IGF-1 levels will be kept low.

You really are comparing apples to oranges in terms of diet when you compare a westernized diet to other diets. There are vegetarians on these forums that have been vegetarians for a vast majority of their lives that have male pattern baldness, so low carb, low fat, and high protein dieting is NOT an effective means of preventing male pattern baldness long term. It's more a matter of what the diet is missing, not what it has in excess.

i dont know why you mention vegetarians Docj007 because their carb intake is usually far higher than non-vegetarians.

but thats beside the point. its not about high carb, low carb whatever. its about making sure your foods wont cause excessive insulin spikes. and preferrably keeping the calories to a reasonable level, which many dont. i definately don't think that what our diets are missing has anything to do with it, rather what they have in excess.

Tomas - a quick question, when you refer to 'carbs' do you actually mean to refer to the whole range of carbs, simple and complex, or when you say carbs are you actually talking about potatos and bread? i hope you dont mean atkins though, that retarded diet. anything that wants people to stop eating fruit is idiotic.

dammitletmein posted an interesting study a while back.

http://news.hairlosshelp.com/hair-loss- ... ts-survey/

No fresh fruit is always OK (not talking about sweetened "fruit" juice) - if you do not eat three botles of honey each day... In fact, I am talking about refined starches and sugars - white rice, white bread, pasta etc. If you eat whole-grains and you do not eat that too much (it is not over 50% of your food intake). Whole grain bread or brown rice is totally different as it is not made from white flour and it is not missing important things - which when are missed, you digest food differently than you shoul.

 

[docj077]

No, Estrogen does not protect your in this this way. Women after menopause have less estrogen, but they also have less progesterone, which is the one that is protective.

I said it earlier - during pregnancy, Progesterone (which protects against estrogens and also against conversion of T to DHT) is at its peak. Women have their best hair when they are pregnant because during this time Progesterone is even 3x and more higher than usual. They do not lose hair and their hair is really thick.

No, estrogen has powerful antioxidant effects. Low estrogen is linked to an increased risk of heart disease in women. Estrogen is elevated during pregnancy and is responsible for preventing miscarriage and promoting fetal maturation. Many, many women actually experience hair loss or T.E. soon after the pregnancy ends due to the fall in estrogen concentration.

In fact, high estrogen during pregnancy is associated with an improvement in skin conditions such as psoriasis. Psoriasis has a similar underlying pathology when compared to male pattern baldness, which is hyperkeratinization of the epidermis.

I believe that you are very wrong when it comes to the effects of estrogens on hair. As I said, estrogens are indirect antagonists of androgen function.

You are simply lying here. Women do not have high estrogens during pregnancy and they do not drop estrogen after pregnancy. They have high PROGESTERONE and after pregnancy PROGESTERONE is dropped. This is simply fact of life and you deny it that you have changed progesterone for estrogen??? :lol:

If only testosterone is causing hairloss, why black men do not suffer from it so much as they have so high T?

I'm going to make you eat your words Tomas99. I now believe that you not only do not know what you're talking about, but that you also lack the education necessary to carry on this conversation.

Yes, I'd lie to you about common medical knowledge with regards to the physiology of pregnancy.

Taken from BRS Physiology by Linda S. Costanzo:

"Pregnancy - is characterized by steadily increasing levels of estrogen and progesterone, which maintain the endometrium for the fetus, suppress ovarian follicular function (by inhibiting FSH and LH secretion), and stimulate development of the breasts.

1.Fertilization
-If fertilization occurs, the corpus luteum is rescued from regression by human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), which is produced by the placenta.

2.First Trimester
-The corpus luteum (stimulated by HCG) is responsible for the production of estradiol and progesterone.

-Peak levels of HCG occur at gestional week nine and then decline.

3.Second and third trimesters
-Progesterone is produced by the placenta.
-Estrogens are produced by the interplay of the fetal adrenal gland and the placenta. The fetal adrenal gland synthesizes dehydroepiandrosterone -sulfate (DHEA-S), which is then hydroxylated in the fetal liver. These intermediates are transferred to the placenta, where enzymes remove sulfate and aromatize to estrogens. The placental estrogen is estriol.

4.Partuition
-Throughout pregnancy, progesterone increases the threshold for uternine contraction.
-Near term, the estrogen/progesterone ratio increases, which makes the uterus more sensitive to contractile stimuli.
-The initiating event in partuition is unknown. (Although oxytocin is a powrful stimulant of uterine contractions, blood levels of oxytocin do not change before labor.)

5.Lactation
-Estrogens and progesterone stimulate the growth and development of the breasts throughout pregnancy.
-Prolactin levels increase steadily during pregnancy because estrogen stimulates prolactin secretion from the anterior pituitary.
-Lactation does not occur during pregnancy because estrogen and progesterone block the action of prolactin on the breast.

-After parturition, estrogen and progesterone levels decrease abruptly and lactation occurs."




Be very careful who you call a liar around here. It'll get you into trouble. I have the graph right in front of me and it clearly demonstrates that both estrogen and progesterone increase significantly during pregnancy and then rapidly decline after birth.

 

[IBM]

so in resume what's the best way to fight fibrosis?

 

[docj077]

so in resume what's the best way to fight fibrosis?

You find the answer to that and you'll have so much money you'll probably drown in it.

 

[IBM]

so in resume what's the best way to fight fibrosis?

You find the answer to that and you'll have so much money you'll probably drown in it.

but at least say it.

 

[docj077]

so in resume what's the best way to fight fibrosis?

You find the answer to that and you'll have so much money you'll probably drown in it.

but at least say it.

Find a way to inhibit the action of TGF-beta, but only in the scalp without preventing wound healing, dermal remodeling, cancer spread prevention, and the like. In other words, you need to inhibit the actions of dermal fibroblasts while maintaining keratinocyte growth and cycling.

It's pretty much a biochemical impossibility.

 

[michael barry]

Doctor,

Proctor has told me that the specific SOD's he uses in Prox-N are designed to do pretty much just that: inhibit TGF-beta, while reversing dermal fibroblasts, inducing skin remodelling, increase VEGF, etc.

Ive only looked for cheap, easily spreadable (as opposed to spironolactone cream), once-a-day receptor blockers in my quest for a better regimine. I consider Proctor's Prox-N about as good a regrowth product as anyone is ever going to be able to come up with personally.

 

[Guest]

I consider Proctor's Prox-N about as good a regrowth product as anyone is ever going to be able to come up with personally.

better than minoxidil, which it doesn't include?

would you say that proxiphen would regrow more than rogaine foam considering it contains minoxidil plus spironolactone and other stuff?

 

[tomas99]

N-Oxide (nitric oxide) - Increased presence of intracellular nitric oxide has been shown to increase the size and section of the hair follicle.

I am not user, is this the same what is minoxidil doing, increasing nitric oxide?

 

[docj077]

Minoxidil has many chemical actions ranging from TGF-beta inhibition to selective arterial vasodilation.

 

[michael barry]

Jayman asked:

"would you say that proxiphen would regrow more than rogaine foam considering it contains minoxidil plus spironolactone and other stuff?"


This pic, http://www.drproctor.com/Proxtx.html , is still the most exemplerary regrowth photo Ive ever seen. It was with proxiphen. Proxiphen has spironolactone, phenytoin, and minoxidil in addition to pretty much the same stuff he puts in prox-n. He might have another drug or two with a hypertricohotic side effect in there also. Dont know.

I do know this though, after reading message boards since 2003 pretty extensively, Proctor is the one real doctor and Ph.D pharmacologist who exclusively studies hair for the most part, and is constantly looking for new ways to regrow it.

The "regrowth" one gets from Prox-N might be around or even more (or a tad less, who knows) what one gets from minoxidil, but I would imagine that you would keep what you had on Prox-N much much longer than with minoxidil. I'd order the real stuff from him though.....................Ive tried the watered down version (cheaper) from LEF.org. If proctor thought it best to water it down, he'd water it down himself.


In my opinion, if one uses finasteride, prox-N, and nizoral and still couldn't maintain their haircount, they just have cueball genes and should shave it all off anyway. Some guys are going to be like that too man....................there are some men who are just cue-balls, and have shittty hair genetics, and should shave it and forget it at the outset. However, most of us who would not have been completely bald until late thirties/forties might have a chance to really hang on to it with all this stuff until our sixties, etc. There should definitely be a genetic-type intervention or cloning by then for sure.



I feel, like Doctor, that bald men inherit a variant of the androgen receptor gene and a variant of whatever gene controls how active alpha five reductase is in the scalp and how bad both these genes will assert themselves (mutations). After that, men with active immune systems probably have it even WORSE, because the active immune system probably acts even harder against the struggling hairs. Thats pretty much baldness in my opinion. We can stop it by blocking androgen uptake at the receptor, negating DHT one way or the other---finas, binding DHT like soya somehow, -----------------or fighting the downstream effects of the DHT and receptor uptake of it, which is much more difficult.


Dave 001 was probably right when he said finas and spironolactone should be everone's first line of defense.

 

[Bryan]

This pic, http://www.drproctor.com/Proxtx.html , is still the most exemplerary regrowth photo Ive ever seen. It was with proxiphen.

There was a well-known poster on one of these sites a while back who tried to tell me that those pics are NOT indicative of a particularly good response. He was apparently serious about that. Can you imagine how incredulous I was that he would say such a thing? :shock: I just threw my hands up in the air...

The "regrowth" one gets from Prox-N might be around or even more (or a tad less, who knows) what one gets from minoxidil, but I would imagine that you would keep what you had on Prox-N much much longer than with minoxidil.

Agreed. I would expect a more long-lasting effect from Prox-N than I would from minoxidil.

I'd order the real stuff from him though.....................Ive tried the watered down version (cheaper) from LEF.org. If proctor thought it best to water it down, he'd water it down himself.

But even Dr. Proctor admits that the LEF version is probably a better deal for the money.

 

[Guest]

There was a well-known poster on one of these sites a while back who tried to tell me that those pics are NOT indicative of a particularly good response. He was apparently serious about that. Can you imagine how incredulous I was that he would say such a thing? :shock: I just threw my hands up in the air...

Bryan, there is no doubt in my mind that that is an exemplary response. Only an idiot would say it wasn't. The question though, is is that a typical response? And we know it isn't. Not to single Dr Proctor out though, because everyone does that. Even Glaxo and Merck do it. Look at the Dutas 6 month photos from the trials:


0 months:

6 months:

Now that's not typical either. I have a feeling that Proxiphen is great. The problem is though Bryan, that you don't get much Proxiphen per vial or whatever, and it's $100 a pop. Now for people like me who are diffusers who have to spread the crap over an NW4 area and have some of it get stuck in hair, instead of just spreading it over bare hairline and temples, it's unaffordable. I can't afford to spend $2000 a year(which is prob what it would cost me to use enough to cover my area) on just one treatment.

Now Nano shampoo, on the other hand, is actually something that is very useful and convenient for diffusers, since everyone has to shampoo anyway, and it lathers very well if you pre-wash with a cheap shampoo beforehand. Nano provides good bang for the buck in this respect. The two Proctor topicals do not if you have a big area to cover.

This is why I will stick with the cheaper Rogaine foam, because even using twice the recommended amount, I can keep the cost to $300 a year.

And michael, I'm not worried about losing hair on a dutasteride, minoxidil, nizoral regimen anyway. I probably would consider proxiphen if it was more affordable, as I imagine a lot of people would.