IBM
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Perifollicular Fibrosis - Can be reverted?
- Thread starter IBM
- Start date
docj077
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1
IBM said:
The people that use 5AR inhibitors and minoxidil ARE reversing the process or at least decreasing the collagen production. Downregulating or inhibiting TGF-beta is known to cause the reversal of fibrosis in pretty much any tissue that you can think of. The time it takes to reverse the fibrosis in some people is quite likely the reason why some men do not see results for many many months or even years when using finasteride or dutasteride. This is another reason why it is important to stick with a regimen for a long period of time.
G
Guest
Guest
docj077 said:
would you say it can take about as long to reverse as the time it's been going on for? if fibrosis has been occurring for 5 years, it may take 5 years for it to reverse? does it ever reverse completely in people?
G
Guest
Guest
docj077 said:
what does reversing the fibrosis mean in terms of regrowth? do people that reverse it the most get the most regrowth, or is there not that close of a correlation?
docj077
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1
JayMan said:
To be honest, I've never read a study that demonstrates that a particular degree of reversal leads to a better outcome. Inhibition of the processes that lead to the fibrosis is associated with hair growth and regrowth, but there simply hasn't been much research released with regards to reversal of fibrosis histologically and the corresponding response aesthetically.
Sorry. I'm sure that doesn't help you much.
tomas99
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 2
Minoxidil DOES NOT reverse fibrosis! It is not capable to do this - if it would, then it would work for many years and you could see improvement even after 4 years of using it. Also, if it reverse fibrosis, you could not lose new hairs in such short period of time once.
Retin-A is anti-androgen which is capable of reversing or slowing fibrosis, also Copper peptides are able to reverse or slow down fibrosis. There are many TGF-beta inhibitors that reduce TGF-beta 1 like Catechins (from green tea), Pomegranate extract, Resveratrol, Grape Seed extract, and SOD (super oxide dismutase. you can find it in supplement like GliSODin or in Copper Peptides - Tricomin, Folligen....)
Retin-A is anti-androgen which is capable of reversing or slowing fibrosis, also Copper peptides are able to reverse or slow down fibrosis. There are many TGF-beta inhibitors that reduce TGF-beta 1 like Catechins (from green tea), Pomegranate extract, Resveratrol, Grape Seed extract, and SOD (super oxide dismutase. you can find it in supplement like GliSODin or in Copper Peptides - Tricomin, Folligen....)
tomas99
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 2
I think that reversal is possible but agree with docj077 that complete reversal is unlikely so you probably wont have teenage hairline when you have Androgenetic Alopecia. But you can have hairline like Cruise or Pitt if you do everything right and also have some luck.
I also agree that reversal proccess can take years. But if you start fighting against fibrosis from every possible angle.
http://www.hairloss-research.org/february1.html. It is partially based upon input from Waseda, a Japanese researcher who has been researching inflammation and androgenetic hair loss for many years. He has been able to initiate extensive hair regrowth after being a “slick bald†Norwood 5 for many years using an aggressive combination of therapies specifically designed to counter inflammation and an apoptosis factors.
And I only add that in Waseda case, Finasteride is just one stuff from about 15-20 things that help, more or less, with halting or reversing hairloss.
I also agree that reversal proccess can take years. But if you start fighting against fibrosis from every possible angle.
http://www.hairloss-research.org/february1.html. It is partially based upon input from Waseda, a Japanese researcher who has been researching inflammation and androgenetic hair loss for many years. He has been able to initiate extensive hair regrowth after being a “slick bald†Norwood 5 for many years using an aggressive combination of therapies specifically designed to counter inflammation and an apoptosis factors.
And I only add that in Waseda case, Finasteride is just one stuff from about 15-20 things that help, more or less, with halting or reversing hairloss.
tomas99
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 2
Any evidence for this (which says it controls TGF-beta like Finasteride controls 5AR - not talking about it probably controls TGF-beta)?
It is possible, from what I have read it is improving Bcl-2/Bax ration in your skin. Anyway, it is not long term solution and we can argue what happens that after period of short time, it stops doing something. If it would hold TGF-beta, I think you should have much more better results on it as TGF-beta is even important than DHT.
It is possible, from what I have read it is improving Bcl-2/Bax ration in your skin. Anyway, it is not long term solution and we can argue what happens that after period of short time, it stops doing something. If it would hold TGF-beta, I think you should have much more better results on it as TGF-beta is even important than DHT.
tomas99
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 2
What is the point of this? There are more factors than only DHT so your hairloss could not be caused by more DHT in scalp.
DHT is great and huge marketing article because when you point to only one cause, you can easily offer solution. If you spread to the word that there are many causes of genetic determined hairloss, it is not so easy to offer some treatment. If you point to only one cause, it is very easy to offer something - like saw palmetto or something like that which is in your brand-new natural product.
Of course I do not deny that androgens play important role and that without them many would not lose it probably.
DHT is great and huge marketing article because when you point to only one cause, you can easily offer solution. If you spread to the word that there are many causes of genetic determined hairloss, it is not so easy to offer some treatment. If you point to only one cause, it is very easy to offer something - like saw palmetto or something like that which is in your brand-new natural product.
Of course I do not deny that androgens play important role and that without them many would not lose it probably.
docj077
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1
tomas99 said:
Without high potency androgens, men DO NOT lose their hair at all. This is quite evident in men with 5 alpha reductase deficiency and men (who appear to be women) with androgen insensitivity syndrome. There are other diseases causing hair loss that are not androgen related, but these do not concern us here. The overwhelming cause is androgens. Pure and simple.
Everything that you can possibly think of with regards to hair loss feeds into the exact pathway that androgens use to cause the disease process. Diet, stress, inflammation, etc. all feed into the exact same pathway. That is why stopping it at the level of androgen production and the androgen receptor is what matters most. There are more factors than DHT, but DHT is what is causing their release or their production, so it is DHT that must be dealt with in the long term.
It is DHT that eventually causes inappropriate follicular cycling, keratinocyte apoptosis, and collagenase inhibition promoting collagen deposition and fibrosis with vascular obliteration. Why would you waste your time with any other molecule at this point when the only other molecule of importance is TGF-beta. IGF-1 controls hair growth, but it isn't truly increased in men taking finasteride. What IS increased is insulin-like growth factor binding proteins, which give the illusion of more total IGF-1 being present when in reality most of it is simply bound.
Growth hormone injections, low carb diets, and drugs or herbs that inhibit estrogen production are all a disaster waiting to happen in men with male pattern baldness.
If you think that you know a better way, then please, enlighten us all.
tomas99
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 2
Growth hormone injections, low carb diets, and drugs or herbs that inhibit estrogen production are all a disaster waiting to happen in men with male pattern baldness.
End of discussion. Period. Only you can do is to state something without any evidence (show me studies when inhibited estrogen caused hairloss, show me studies where low carb diets caused or worsened hairloss). You have not a single proof to back up your statements.
But if you know everything - please answer me this question. How it is possible that Asians seem to be less vulnerable to male pattern baldness than Europeans and Americans. But only those that live in Asia with no westernized food. Those that live for longer time in West start loosing hair in the same pattern as we do. How is this possible?[/i]
End of discussion. Period. Only you can do is to state something without any evidence (show me studies when inhibited estrogen caused hairloss, show me studies where low carb diets caused or worsened hairloss). You have not a single proof to back up your statements.
But if you know everything - please answer me this question. How it is possible that Asians seem to be less vulnerable to male pattern baldness than Europeans and Americans. But only those that live in Asia with no westernized food. Those that live for longer time in West start loosing hair in the same pattern as we do. How is this possible?[/i]
G
Guest
Guest
tomas99 said:
Asians eat a lot of foods that may slow down male pattern baldness. They drink a lot of green tea, etc. They aren't doing as much of things like this now so you're seeing what looks like more prevalent male pattern baldness in countries like Japan. The diets that were protecting them a bit in the past aren't being utilized as much anymore.
My opinion though is that even a perfect diet can't come close to matching the power of dutasteride when it comes to combatting male pattern baldness.
tomas99
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 2
Yes but if it is only about DHT, then this would not be applied.
Japan is not good example as it is the most Westernized Asian country. If I see reports from Vietnam, 50 years man have hairlines like teenagers. I think that perfect diet and perfect health of liver, kidney and colon is most important in prevention of male pattern baldness - it helps that male pattern baldness is not triggered.
There is really difference between them and us. If I see people from Vietnam in here, they have bald spots, receeded hairlines etc. European lifestyle and diet simply triggered their male pattern baldness.
I think their diet plays huge role. But also, if you are able to be on the same diet plus use many supplements, it is propably possible to reverse male pattern baldness as you change all hormones and your organs are in better health. However, it is much more harder than in case of prevention. Certain processes are already started and it is not easy to stop them.
Japan is not good example as it is the most Westernized Asian country. If I see reports from Vietnam, 50 years man have hairlines like teenagers. I think that perfect diet and perfect health of liver, kidney and colon is most important in prevention of male pattern baldness - it helps that male pattern baldness is not triggered.
There is really difference between them and us. If I see people from Vietnam in here, they have bald spots, receeded hairlines etc. European lifestyle and diet simply triggered their male pattern baldness.
I think their diet plays huge role. But also, if you are able to be on the same diet plus use many supplements, it is propably possible to reverse male pattern baldness as you change all hormones and your organs are in better health. However, it is much more harder than in case of prevention. Certain processes are already started and it is not easy to stop them.
docj077
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1
tomas99 said:
I don't need studies to tell you what is accepted as physiology dogma. Low carb diets will increase growth hormone production, and thus, IGF-1 production. Studies clearly demonstrate an increase in serum IGF-1 in men with male pattern baldness. It is quite easy to demonstrate the link between low carb dieting and male pattern baldness. Eating foods that are high in starch so as to release glucose slowly are far better for the human body. They prevent glucose and insulin spikes.
Estrogen itself is required for the growth of axillary and pubic hair and it is needed to maintain follicular cycling depending upon the estrogen receptor subtype that it binds to. The absence of particular estrogens has been shown to reduce hair growth. That study is posted on this site if you look hard enough. There are estrogen receptors and androgen receptors in the hair follicle whether it be a normal person or a balding person. Obviously, the body didn't just put them there for show. Androgens alone do not promote hair growth during puberty. Aromatizable androgens are required, which means that estrogen is the primary contributing factor for body hair growth.
By your reasoning, we should be eliminating or tightly controlling a lot more than just estrogen, IGF-1, and androgens. Thyroid hormones, glucocorticoids, retinoids, and calcitriols all modulate hair growth.
As for your last question, YOU should already know the answer to that question. Soy and teas when used constantly and consistently in the diet can significantly lower DHT levels.
docj077
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1
tomas99 said:
How do you know that the supplements that you recommend for male pattern baldness don't inhibit necessary liver enzymes or even cause heptatocyte damage or death? How do you know that what you recommend betters the health of your organs. Do you have histological and functional proof of this phenomenon.