P-3074 (polichem Topical Finasteride) Phase Iii Just Ended.

[Btg]

So what about side effects?

if it doesnt reach the prostate i dont see why it would give side effects , i am more interested in how well it is going to work for hairloss

 

[tdma]

So what about side effects?

Not sure. If you look at the graphs for DHT suppression it is not a linear graph. It almost seems like a binary switch where from a certain treshold DHT is suppressed. From their studies they got serum DHT levels dropping 25%. And if it gets into the blood stream, it will eventually reach the prostate.

 

[Btg]

Not sure. If you look at the graphs for DHT suppression it is not a linear graph. It almost seems like a binary switch where from a certain treshold DHT is suppressed. From their studies they got serum DHT levels dropping 25%. And if it gets into the blood stream, it will eventually reach the prostate.

These are graphs about oral , also the scalp 5ars probably contribute to serum dht so if you inhibit them a drop in serum dht is expected . Some finasteride will definitely reach the prostate , the point is how much

 

[SimonC]

Fevipiprant has not demonstrated efficacy for AA

Where did you get this information?

 

[BalderBaldyBald]

if it doesnt reach the prostate i dont see why it would give side effects , i am more interested in how well it is going to work for hairloss

Cause you have androgen receptors almost everywhere in your body, brain tissue included

Find some papers about androgen deprivation, eyes, skin, liver, penile tissue, brain tissue and list goes on

 

[Yepesyellow]

Well as I understand it it’s only been tested for asthma, so it could work for AA but it hasn’t been tested for it, so hasn’t demonstrated efficacy.

 

[Btg]

Cause you have androgen receptors almost everywhere in your body, brain tissue included

Find some papers about androgen deprivation, eyes, skin, liver, penile tissue, brain tissue and list goes on

Dht is paracrine , only binds where it is produced

 

[bboy]

Dht is paracrine , only binds where it is produced

This.

People have this idea that DHT is produced somewhere else in the body and then the blood stream ships it to the follicle. Then they get the idea that we have to shut down all DHT in the bloodstream before it gets to the follicle.

My understanding is that 5AR is produced in the hair follicle and even in the Dermal Papilla cells themselves which then take up Testosterone and convert it to DHT.

The mystery to me is why reducing serum levels of DHT has any real effect at all.

The comparison to those with 5AR deficiency surely means they have a genetic variation that prevents them from producing 5AR anywhere, not that they just don't have any floating around in the blood.

The general idea though is that, surely, a topical finasteride would be far superior, as everything outside the scalp is off target, and when you eat finasteride it much pretty goes everywhere else first, meaning it's only the leftovers that get to bind the 5AR in your scalp. This way your scalp gets first pickings and it's only the leftovers that are going systemic.

 

[BetaBoy]

This.

People have this idea that DHT is produced somewhere else in the body and then the blood stream ships it to the follicle. Then they get the idea that we have to shut down all DHT in the bloodstream before it gets to the follicle.

My understanding is that 5AR is produced in the hair follicle and even in the Dermal Papilla cells themselves which then take up Testosterone and convert it to DHT.

The mystery to me is why reducing serum levels of DHT has any real effect at all.

The comparison to those with 5AR deficiency surely means they have a genetic variation that prevents them from producing 5AR anywhere, not that they just don't have any floating around in the blood.

The general idea though is that, surely, a topical finasteride would be far superior, as everything outside the scalp is off target, and when you eat finasteride it much pretty goes everywhere else first, meaning it's only the leftovers that get to bind the 5AR in your scalp. This way your scalp gets first pickings and it's only the leftovers that are going systemic.

Well it always sounds great in theory doesn't it lol. I was always under the impression that the inhibition of 5ar throughout the body by use of orally administered ARIs wasn't linear which was why topical ARIs originally piqued my interest. But recently I came across a comment by the late @Bryan discussing and dismissing this claim as a complete fallacy, so now I ask what possible benefit from an efficacy angle could oral have over topical? Personally, I don't think there will be any.

 

[Btg]

Well it always sounds great in theory doesn't it lol. I was always under the impression that the inhibition of 5ar throughout the body by use of orally administered ARIs wasn't linear which was why topical ARIs originally piqued my interest. But recently I came across a comment by the late @Bryan discussing and dismissing this claim as a complete fallacy, so now I ask what possible benefit from an efficacy angle could oral have over topical? Personally, I don't think there will be any.

what do you mean ? oral does linearly inhibit the enzymes but they take so long to get replaced that finasteride reaches saturation in most doses above 0.1 mg daily , maybe even less . The point of the topicals is to limit finasteride to the scalp enzymes with some special vehicle

 

[tdma]

They use hydroxyxpropyl chitosan as a "special" vehicle. If I'm not mistaken that's like nail polish.
I'm wondering why they don't use a liposomal formulation.

 

[Yepesyellow]

I’d imagine there is a reason; the Pharmacia Parati formulation confidently promoted the use of liposomes, however neglected to conduct relatively simple, corroborating, test of hormone levels.

 

[Btg]

I’d imagine there is a reason; the Pharmacia Parati formulation confidently promoted the use of liposomes, however neglected to conduct relatively simple, corroborating, test of hormone levels.

there was supposed to have been a study by the university of milan or something . anyway farmacia parati is a pharmacy , i imagine they dont have the means to gather a significant sample of people and measure their dht multiple times

 

[Yepesyellow]

Admittedly I am relatively new to this; was that study convincing? Do you have access to it? I ask because I’m keen to do something quite soon, but I’d like an actual demonstration of the claims made. It seems as though everyone says that a certain formulation of topical Finasteride is less prone to systemic effects, but only Almirall have actually bothered to demonstrate it.

 

[BetaBoy]

what do you mean ? oral does linearly inhibit the enzymes but they take so long to get replaced that finasteride reaches saturation in most doses above 0.1 mg daily , maybe even less . The point of the topicals is to limit finasteride to the scalp enzymes with some special vehicle

Sorry, maybe I should elaborate, I'd seen in the past people pointing to a significant disparity between inhibition of scalp and serum DHT, this would have suggested that the amount of inhibition of 5ar was not the same across different tissue types.

 

[BalderBaldyBald]

This.

People have this idea that DHT is produced somewhere else in the body and then the blood stream ships it to the follicle. Then they get the idea that we have to shut down all DHT in the bloodstream before it gets to the follicle.

My understanding is that 5AR is produced in the hair follicle and even in the Dermal Papilla cells themselves which then take up Testosterone and convert it to DHT.

The mystery to me is why reducing serum levels of DHT has any real effect at all.

The comparison to those with 5AR deficiency surely means they have a genetic variation that prevents them from producing 5AR anywhere, not that they just don't have any floating around in the blood.

The general idea though is that, surely, a topical finasteride would be far superior, as everything outside the scalp is off target, and when you eat finasteride it much pretty goes everywhere else first, meaning it's only the leftovers that get to bind the 5AR in your scalp. This way your scalp gets first pickings and it's only the leftovers that are going systemic.

5AR can be produced by every cell in your body, so if a 5AR inhibitor reach your bloodstream, it will shut DHT formation in other tissue, but yeah DHT is produced locally, everywhere....

 

[Btg]

5AR can be produced by every cell in your body, so if a 5AR inhibitor reach your bloodstream, it will shut DHT formation in other tissue, but yeah DHT is produced locally, everywhere....

Can you link a source for that ? When i checked i read that 5ar2s are located in the prostate and the skin , which makes sense to me because 5ar2 deficient people have no male pattern baldness ,no body hair/beard and a micropenis , if 5ar2 was expressed everywhere i guess they would have bigger issues

 

[Btg]

Admittedly I am relatively new to this; was that study convincing? Do you have access to it? I ask because I’m keen to do something quite soon, but I’d like an actual demonstration of the claims made. It seems as though everyone says that a certain formulation of topical Finasteride is less prone to systemic effects, but only Almirall have actually bothered to demonstrate it.

I couldnt find it either , hasson and wong posted it in their site but taken it down afaik , i just read the summary thar it went systemic at 1/18 of the dosage or something . It could ve been complete bullshit tho , who knows

 

[Btg]

So you don't expect any side effects with this?

Well if you could limit finasteride to the scalp only , which i believe is a pretty challenging task , i dont see why you would get sides

 

[tdma]

Everyone claims to have the perfect vehicle to minimize systemic absorption, but nobody really delivers the proof. I'd be sceptic.
There's this study by Polichem where they have a 0.25% finasteride solution and they find serum DHT levels only fall by 25% when using no more than 100 uL of the solution, which comes down to an application of 0.2275 mg on the scalp (daily).