NO DHT=NO MUSCLE??

[pmzito]

I think I have a vast knowledge of drugs, in fact this is what I am earning my doctorate in. I have completed all of my Medicinal Chemistry and from what I learned especially about structure and reactivity is that DHT is 10x's more potent. If you block the conversion to DHT, you lose a lot of what is there. Also, if you ENTIRELY block DHT, kiss sexdrive goodbye. The levels of Finasteride (1mg) used for allopecia is not significant enough to worry about muscle loss. We are not 100% blocking all levels of DHT, we are reducing some that is about it.

The concern I would have, that logically makes sense, is the conversion of the Testosterone to other forms, 17B Estradiol, Androstenedione, etc. However I can say from my personal experience is this. I have been on finasteride for over a year now.

In my 14 months of finasteride use, I lost weight from having mono and dropped to 180 lbs last May. By December I was 210 lbs. I would say that the finasteride and less exercise has made my weight go up. I could never ever brake the 200 mark (but my body fat % was at about 6%). This summer I plan on cutting up and will give you a better idea of my personal experience. My strength is at pretty good levels that I am happy with, but I attribute it to diet.

You are what you eat, I say try to adjust your diet to a strict diet, i just know that with my experience I cannot pig out on junk food and stay under 6% bodyfat like I did in the past. I will give you an update in the next month or so. Hope this helps.

 

[pmzito]

you are misinformed. im working on my doctorate,

What kind of doctoral program are you in?


[quote:54407]DHT is actually 10x's more potent than Testosterone. Testosterone has an anabolic to androgenic ratio of 1:1. so if you eliminate the conversion of Test to DHT then you will have less anabolic and less androgenic effects.

Isn't it obtuse to say that one hormone is 10x more potent than another? Wouldn't it be more acceptable to say that it is 10x more androgenic/anabolic in nature in relation to another compound? I need to be educated on this, please.[/quote:54407]

doctor of pharmacy. sure you can say that, 10x more active. the ratio of anabolic to androgenic is the same; however, dht is 10x more active.

 

[newguy2006]

This is a great thread. Interesting posts, pmzito.

 

[pmzito]

Will it crush my sex drive permanantly or will it come back after i get off the drug??? Come on fuckin hedgehog or HM hurry the hell up!

your sexdrive should return to normal eventually for whatever your age is. i have had zero drop in sexdrive i still jerk off 5 times a day and have sex everyday on top of that.

 

[pmzito]

it logically could make sense to use an estrogen receptor blocker. However, I cannot recommend a level that works best for you. I personally would not take these unless you really do run a risk of gyno.

 

[stax]

pmzito, thanks for your great info! I wanted to ask you a question if you dont mind. Im going to be switching from Propecia to Dutasteride when it arrives next week. I found Propecia was a bit on the weak side and i want to really attack hairloss untill HM comes out.


Anyways, i run the risk of gyno because my natural DHT levels are high and when on Propecia i noticed some fat gain around the chest. So when on Dutasteride do you think it would be safe to use 0.25mg of Arimidex twice per week? I dont want to lower estrogen too much but i want to keep it from increasing while on dutasteride. Do you think this would be safe to do for a few years? Thanks!

 

[pmzito]

pmzito, thanks for your great info! I wanted to ask you a question if you dont mind. Im going to be switching from Propecia to Dutasteride when it arrives next week. I found Propecia was a bit on the weak side and i want to really attack hairloss untill HM comes out.


Anyways, i run the risk of gyno because my natural DHT levels are high and when on Propecia i noticed some fat gain around the chest. So when on Dutasteride do you think it would be safe to use 0.25mg of Arimidex twice per week? I dont want to lower estrogen too much but i want to keep it from increasing while on dutasteride. Do you think this would be safe to do for a few years? Thanks!

it is really hard to say go use that because there are a lot of variables that come into play. it depends on your age, medical history, current medication, etc. i don't want to give bad advice and tell you to start using prescription drugs like that you know.

 

[stax]

Hi pmzito, im 22 years old, just got a physical test about 3 months ago and everything was great. I just started eating a really good diet and exercising everyday. Im also a naturally lean guy but im prone to chest fat and probabbly gyno seeing as though when i ws on finesteride i got some fatty tissue in the chest. The only other medication i'll be taking is Dutasteride for hairloss. Do you think you can give me some advice now on my question? Thanks!

 

[pmzito]

Hi pmzito, im 22 years old, just got a physical test about 3 months ago and everything was great. I just started eating a really good diet and exercising everyday. Im also a naturally lean guy but im prone to chest fat and probabbly gyno seeing as though when i ws on finesteride i got some fatty tissue in the chest. The only other medication i'll be taking is Dutasteride for hairloss. Do you think you can give me some advice now on my question? Thanks!

you should speak to your physician. tell him your concerns but ask him about the problems with gyno in men. if you do block the estrogen levels, there are feedback mechanisms that take place which need to be considerred. hormones are really tricky because pharmacogenetics play a big role. in all regards ask your physician. BUT, if you do block your estrogen, you could have problems with your bones. the estrogen is what helps maintain your calcium in your bones so you dont want to eliminate that. i hope this helps.

 

[thiningattop]

I thought Finasteride moslty affects the DHT levels in your scalp?
If so, then why should we be worried about muscle growth?

Am i wrong here?

Also, just on a personal note:

Ive been on finasteride for about 4 months now, at the same time hitting the gym daily. I've made substantial muscle growth over that period. I can post before/after pics to show u guys that u an still gain lean mass and be on finasteride at the same time.

 

[Apoc]

If muscles were tightly tied to DHT then someone taking Dutasteride would lose a lot of muscle mass. I don't think that is happening.

 

[Bryan]

I thought Finasteride moslty affects the DHT levels in your scalp?

Uhhh...it will affect DHT levels wherever the type 2 form of the 5a-reductase enzyme predominates. Another example of that (besides hair follicle dermal papillae) would be the prostate. If I recall correctly, DHT levels in the prostate are reduced by around 90% or so when taking Proscar.

If so, then why should we be worried about muscle growth?

I agree with the comments made early in this thread: DHT doesn't appear to be important for muscle. So it's not surprising that muscle tissue doesn't even have significant levels of 5a-reductase.

Ive been on finasteride for about 4 months now, at the same time hitting the gym daily. I've made substantial muscle growth over that period. I can post before/after pics to show u guys that u an still gain lean mass and be on finasteride at the same time.

A fellow over on hairsite always used to brag about the INCREDIBLE gains he was making in the gym, despite the fact that he was on dutasteride! :wink:

If his claims and your claims are accurate, that would appear to support the notion that DHT isn't important for muscle; and in fact, using 5a-reductase inhibitors like finasteride and dutasteride could conceivably even be BENEFICIAL for muscle, because of the reflexive upregulation of testosterone production.

Bryan

 

[stax]

Bryan, can you exaplin something to me? Why does 1.25 Proscar make me feel like total sh*t? It makes me feel like an old unhealthy man or something. It affects my mood and turned me into like a zombie or something, concentration was worse, sex drive was bad, personality changed for the worse, energy was lower, recovery time was lower,ect. I just wasnt "myself" on all levels. Mabye because im only 22 years old? For example ive tested this more than 5 different times being on and off Proscar and everytime i get back on the Proscar i feel the the side effects later on that day or the next day. How quick does Proscar act to lower DHT? because sometimes within a few hours i can feel the effects of the drug on my mood,ect? I took about 3 weeks off if it 3 different times and i felt 10000 times better off of the drug everytime. I trained my mind not to expect any side effects and tried not to pay attention but usually 1-2 weeks after stooping the Proscar depending on how long i was on it for previously, its like i plowed through physical work i do a my job with ease and i can keep on going without feeling sore at the end of the day. Also there a time period usally around 9:30pm after my second break that i get an incredible amount of energy while off of finasteride, i dont know the reason for this but while on the Proscar i didnt get that energy boost at all. It seems like it took all the "fight" out of me. I remember about 4 months ago i went for a physical because i thought something was wrong with me. I felt like total garbage, tired all the time, recovery time was horrible, just no life in me, ect. So the physical came back perfect and everything was find. And now i feel great off of Proscar so i know it was due to the Proscar. All i know if you guys with no side effects,ect are damn lucky. I dont understand how lowering DHT by%70 or more wouldnt effect you at all either mentally or physically. Which brings me to my next question.


Would Dutasteride have the same negative side effects on me that Proscar had? Some people clain that they had sides on finasteride and not on dutasteride. If anything i'll try dutasteride for a few weeks but if it makes me feel the same way i'll stick to topical Proxiphen, 5% spironolactone, Remox 4, Spin Trap C, Xandrox 15. What gives with that? Sorry for the long post.

 

[powersam]

how long have you been on Propecia for in one consecutive stretch without taking a break? going on and off a drug like this is really even more disruptive than just staying on it full stop as your body is constantly in a state of change.

 

[Bryan]

How quick does Proscar act to lower DHT? because sometimes within a few hours i can feel the effects of the drug on my mood,ect? I took about 3 weeks off if it 3 different times and i felt 10000 times better off of the drug everytime. I trained my mind not to expect any side effects and tried not to pay attention but usually 1-2 weeks after stooping the Proscar depending on how long i was on it for previously, its like i plowed through physical work i do a my job with ease and i can keep on going without feeling sore at the end of the day.

It only takes a few hours for finasteride to start dropping DHT levels significantly.

Stax, I'm glad you at least recognize the possibility that what you're experiencing is something akin to a placebo effect (the part above about how you "trained your mind" not to expect side-effects). Since these (alleged) effects occur so quickly when you take the drug, you're in an ideal position to do a blinded test on yourself, to PROVE beyond any doubt whether or not the drug is really affecting you like you describe! Would you consider doing a careful test like that? I'd dearly love to see the tabulated results, and I think everyone else would, too...

Bryan

 

[stax]

Bryan and others, yes ive done tests like i said, i was on finasteride for about 11 months straight with mabye 2 break periods after the 7th month due to a shipping delay. One break was about 2 weeks and another about 5 days. Both times i notices a positive difference but mostly after the 2 week period is when i realized how the drug was effecting me. I thought i had a friggin disease i felt so shitty. I mean i take some natural pills now like flax lignan, green tea,ect. about the 12th months i started doing tests. I did tests while both on and off the naturals aswell when on Proscar. No difference. I know what im doing and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure ones own body out. It was 1000000% not a placebo effect because when taking the naturals i felt the same as i normally did without them. when 1.25 proscar went in the mix "boom", a few hours later i started feeling the effects and you even said "Bryan" that it only takes a few hours for finasteride to lower DHT levels so you and i know right there it wasnt a placebo effect. Ive tried to pretend flax lignan was proscar and im good at doing things like that and i didnt notice the sides i experienced while on finasteride. I just ripped an 8 hour day of hard physical labour and i could go another 8 hours and im not sore at all. Last week and many other weeks when i was on Proscar i would drag through the day and i had to put so much effort into it, while off proscar it feels like nothing, the work is a breeze. Also i would be sore and feel like sh*t when i got home while on proscar. Also im more laid back like i normally am and i can carry conversations and mingle a LOT better when im not on Proscar. My mind is too strong to be effected by a placebo effect. Another time this dude at a party was giving away so called free extacy pills saying its the best stuff and wanted to give out a sample ect to show people. So me and some other dudes took it and didnt feel anything. We were expecting to get ripped out of our minds ect but we didnt feel a thing. Later on i find out that another dude i know sold him a bunch of fake pills lol. What im trying to say is i know my body and ive always tried the proscar again not paying attention to it and focusing my mind that its not doing anything negative but my mood is totally effected along with sex drive and especially recovery and ability/stamina to do physical work. It never fails. Anyways im not going to argue with people because i could care less what people think as i wont be taking this crap anymore. I was blessed with a high sex drive and lets just say i "rarely" have any problems down there any i mean almost never. When on Proscar i look at woman totally differently. Its like i dont really care about them and my sex drive was pretty much a joke on Proscar. I would still think about woman but ejaculations were a joke. To me it doesnt make sense when somebody could say that the side effects caused on young men by propecia is placebo. Its actually insane imo. Your lowering a very potent male hormone by 80% or so. Thats obviously going to effect people one way or the other. Mabye not old men but for people under 40 even i wouldnt touch the stuff.

 

[Bryan]

Stax, despite how convinced you are that the effects are real, I'd still like to see you do a blind test. It ought to be easy and not take too much time, so why not do it?

Bryan

 

[imissmyhair]

i just want to say stax reading your last 2 posts in this thread (exept for the extacy pills part lol) it is like reading a diary of my experience on propecia

before i took propecia i was not aware of the any possibility of any mental change or physical fatigue feeling,effects so i dont think it's in your mind, i think it is a reality

i went down to .5mg its not as bad :/

 

[Aplunk1]

Stax,
you are obsessing way too much. Take some Xanax, take your treatments, and get on with life. How many forums are you using nowadays?

Really, finasteride works. It's proven. So does Rogaine. So does Nizoral.

Be patient. The results don't come overnight, nor should you EXPECT them to.

Best of luck, buddy.
Andy

 

[stax]

Aplunk1, no im not obsessing im saying the truth of my experiences. And why would i take Xanax? im not depressed at all bro! I never felt better since i quit propecia! And you have a LOT more post counts then i do bro, so i mean only when i have some questions i'll post it, but im pretty much done. This post wasnt a question about results i dont know where you read that. Im quite fine with my hair i dont have any problems with it especially when i grow it longer it looks a lot thicker than when its shorter for some reason. I appreciate your input though.


imissmyhair, yes these side effects especially for some young men are very real. I dont want to feel them even the slightest bit. I feel like my old self again. I've never heard of any kind of hormone altering drug having absolutely no effects wheather mental or phyical on people. It makes absolutely no sense. God gave us these hormones for a reason and we feel normal, remove a main hormone and its definetly going to have an effect especially on young men.



Bryan, please explain how i preform a blind test and i will do it asap. I'll do it with Dutasteride as i should have about 30 generic Dutas coming tomorrow. I thought last week i might give it a try but i decided against it as i felt the sides would be way worse on dutasteride than finasteride. This test can be done by myself right? Because nobody can assist me as i dont tell friends or family im taking these drugs. Thats my personal business and i plan to keep it that way. I look forward to hearing from you Bryan and please give me all the details and i'll start asap. Thanks!


P.S. Bryan, how long would the dutasteride stay in my system for incase i get side effects?