New Report That Finasteride Does Not Cause Sexual Side Effects When Compared To Control Group

[LosingHairLosingPatience]

Haber was the principal investigator and the subjects in the experiment were from his own clinic in Cleveland.
The self-report surveys were given in house, but by who?
Was it a female nurse? Doesn't say. That's what Merck used.

People lie on surveys, it's one of the biggest limitations of surveys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[LosingHairLosingPatience]

I love how so many people who had side effects from finasteride say it's impossible, it can't be all in my head, when there's literally mountains of evidence regarding the potency of the placebo effect. I'd direct all of you guys to read up on people with chronic back pain who improve when given sugar pills. They'd say it was impossible to imagine, they know their bodies too.

There is some bit of a delusion on this board about the placebo effect. Granted it can be strong in certain instances, but the placebo effect can't change the cerebral spinal fluid concentrations of neuro-steroids:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076017301024
http://www.associazionevittimefinas...oads/2017/05/Melcangi-Research-April-2017.pdf

 

[Iah11]

There is some bit of a delusion on this board about the placebo effect. Granted it can be strong in certain instances, but the placebo effect can't change the cerebral spinal fluid concentrations of neuro-steroids:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076017301024
http://www.associazionevittimefinas...oads/2017/05/Melcangi-Research-April-2017.pdf

Okay. So in general, in medicine, causality is something that scientists try hard to establish. This is a drug that has been tried in millions if not tens of millions. It's safety profile is undisputed. This does not mean that there are no associated side effects.

You cite a 16 person study of severely depressed patients, that does not (to the best of my understanding of the abstract) directly establish:

1) finasteride as the definitive cause of the abnormalities
2) prove that the observed abnormalities were the reason for the symptoms observed

This is valuable evidence but the weight of this evidence in comparison to the heaps of data saying finasteride at 1mg for hair loss causes libido problems at the same rate as placebo is far more overwhelming.

Just a note, it's funny how in that study the abstract mentions the change in plasma levels may not have been reflected in CSF. Clearly you're attempting to present finasteride as this potent brain altering chemical, but even the abstract doesn't come to that conclusion.

 

[Iah11]

Okay. So in general, in medicine, causality is something that scientists try hard to establish. This is a drug that has been tried in millions if not tens of millions. It's safety profile is undisputed. This does not mean that there are no associated side effects.

You cite a 16 person study of severely depressed patients, that does not (to the best of my understanding of the abstract) directly establish:

1) finasteride as the definitive cause of the abnormalities
2) prove that the observed abnormalities were the reason for the symptoms observed

This is valuable evidence but the weight of this evidence in comparison to the heaps of data saying finasteride at 1mg for hair loss causes libido problems at the same rate as placebo is far more overwhelming.

Just a note, it's funny how in that study the abstract mentions the change in plasma levels may not have been reflected in CSF. Clearly you're attempting to present finasteride as this potent brain altering chemical, but even the abstract doesn't come to that conclusion.

Edit: I misinterpreted the abstract. So Plasma changes didn't reflect the CSF changes although there was CSF changes. My questions would be, were baseline levels checked? What does normal mean? Secondly, pseudoscientists on this board claim this is a feminising drug but the CSF showed more testosterone and not less lol

 

[LosingHairLosingPatience]

Okay. So in general, in medicine, causality is something that scientists try hard to establish. This is a drug that has been tried in millions if not tens of millions. It's safety profile is undisputed. This does not mean that there are no associated side effects.

You cite a 16 person study of severely depressed patients, that does not (to the best of my understanding of the abstract) directly establish:

1) finasteride as the definitive cause of the abnormalities
2) prove that the observed abnormalities were the reason for the symptoms observed

This is valuable evidence but the weight of this evidence in comparison to the heaps of data saying finasteride at 1mg for hair loss causes libido problems at the same rate as placebo is far more overwhelming.

Just a note, it's funny how in that study the abstract mentions the change in plasma levels may not have been reflected in CSF. Clearly you're attempting to present finasteride as this potent brain altering chemical, but even the abstract doesn't come to that conclusion.

I have an answer for that (about the plasma and CSF) if you're interested, but I agree with much of what you said. There is no doubt in my mind that the majority of users who take finasteride experience no adverse effects, nor have I claimed otherwise.

 

[LosingHairLosingPatience]

Edit: I misinterpreted the abstract. So Plasma changes didn't reflect the CSF changes although there was CSF changes. My questions would be, were baseline levels checked? What does normal mean? Secondly, pseudoscientists on this board claim this is a feminising drug but the CSF showed more testosterone and not less lol

It happens. I'm pleased you actually read the studies.

 

[Baldy12345]

Dht has no effect on shoulder muscles+ ppl on finastride usually have higher testosterone compared to pre finastride, so I don’t know how that’s possible?

 

[JonnyGo]

I think what you’re talking about is Peyronie’s disease and there are still no cures for that. How did you manage to get it back to straight? And how bad was it curved?

 

[ScaredOfBalding]

ITT coping side-effectcels cry about their limp dicks.

 

[NotInmywatch]

I think what you’re talking about is Peyronie’s disease and there are still no cures for that. How did you manage to get it back to straight? And how bad was it curved?

I don't think it's peyronie's because peryonie is fibrosis and palpable.
I just observed some persistent 5º curvature to the right when penis was fully erect that lasted for some 4 months
I also noticed a slight lost of girth.
I really really really really hope it's not peyronie's.
right now I'm fine but extremely paranoid of this problem returning.
dutasteride is poison.

 

[Phatalis]

I mean this sh*t can say what it wants.

I take finasteride now. For sure decreases my libido a lot and it's definitely not in my head.

But do you. I'm getting off it as soon as I get on CB.

 

[INT]

I love how so many people who had side effects from finasteride say it's impossible, it can't be all in my head, when there's literally mountains of evidence regarding the potency of the placebo effect. I'd direct all of you guys to read up on people with chronic back pain who improve when given sugar pills. They'd say it was impossible to imagine, they know their bodies too.

Jep, the lack of semen during my orgasms was definitely something I imagined. In reality, buckets of c*m came out. Also, the fact that I never got morning wood anymore even though I used to have it everyday was all in my head. My erections were actually rock hard.

 

[bboy]

This study was "funded by a research grant from the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery". Make of that what you will.

Also, just taking the data we have, say only 1% or even 0.5% of guys get side effects, so 99% or 99.5% of guys are clear, that still means for every 100/200 guys a guy gets side effects. so for every million guys who take the drug, you can get 10,000 / 5,000 guys with side effects.

Also, these side effects could be through some off target pathway that we don't understand or are aware of that has nothing to do with androgens.

Given all the risks associated with just being alive that we take everyday, I think finasteride is the first rational choice for fighting Androgenetic Alopecia. You can have your own opinion about this, say that you think people are thinking themselves into it, and you might be right, but we just don't have the data to make that claim true. And the same argument applies to the hyperbole on the other side, you might think finasteride is a super-powerful, feminising drug, but you just simply don't have the data to make that claim true either.

 

[Ollie]

Yes it has effect on all androgen receptors. People don’t have higher testosterone, they just get a slightly higher value of total T for a while but their SHBG shoots through the roof, actually reducing their free T and thus making them weaker. Until their total T also starts dropping then magical things happen. For some it happens slowly maybe in two decades, for others it’s fast (and they start crashing).

A wonderful drug indeed. But I don’t want to be labeled as a hater so I’ll exit here.

5ar inhibitors have got nothing to do with muscle receptors. finasteride and dutasteride have shown increases in T and E, but several studies have shown that no changes were observed to SHBG. So the free and total T ratio remains unchanged.

 

[Alex Contee]

I’ve been on finasteride or dutasteride for over 12 years. The first 6 years I had no sides other than feeling weaker at the gym and a rare ED issue every couple months.

However, after 6 years, I came down with horrible prostatitis and severe ED. I was in denial about it but finally saw a urologist who told me it was probably the finasteride. I was maintaining well at the time and terrified of losing hair. However, after issues preforming, I finally gave up finasteride. After about 3-4 months, the prostatitis completely went away and my ED was gone. Unfortunately, I started losing hair like crazy and after a relationship started I got on it again. Prostatitis and issues came back almost immediately.

This cycle repeated itself 3 times since that times. The sides will still go away if I stop but it seems to take a little longer each time. I have now lost enough hair that I just choose to deal with it. Urologists will tell me that my prostate looks fine but small.

While there could be a placebo effect for some, it doesn’t explain 6 years of this.

 

[Mook]

Lol @ the people on here who just pick and choose when they want to believe in science.

 

[INT]

Stopped reading after "Funded by a research grant from the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery."

 

[NotInmywatch]

I don't see these positions as contradictory, all of them are right

Dr. Rassman has stated that post finasteride syndrome occurs in 1 / 10000 patients,

so you can read 10 recent studies describing absence of any serious adverse effect
and still get destroyed because you simply have bad luck, not because the studies are fake.

my sexual symtoms started on my 7th year of using dutasteride.

studies have limitations. they offer a glimpse of the treated population and they're useful for that.

 

[LosingHairLosingPatience]

Yes it has effect on all androgen receptors. People don’t have higher testosterone, they just get a slightly higher value of total T for a while but their SHBG shoots through the roof, actually reducing their free T and thus making them weaker. Until their total T also starts dropping then magical things happen. For some it happens slowly maybe in two decades, for others it’s fast (and they start crashing).

A wonderful drug indeed. But I don’t want to be labeled as a hater so I’ll exit here.

Thank you, we're on the same page.

 

[INT]

but funded by propecia help is fine

Where do I say that exactly?