New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[opti]

Urea sounds interesting. Azelaid acid peels skin too aswell aS glycolic acid.

I think im using 0.5 mm to shed skin and afterwards 1.5mm to go deeper

Wnt-dependent de novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17507982

i dont get it really ,because my english isnt the best.But does this study say that epidermal wounding leads hair regrow?So we dont have to go deep?

http://www.follicabio.com/content/science-and-technology/

look at the follica pics,they say too,that trough epidermis wounding new hair cells are sprouting.
so how thick is epidermis in balding scalps?

 

[danawhite1]

these are the same pic but the second one is a zoom in of the first one. dont mind the vellus but look at the small terminal hairs thats just sprouting up. thats 4 weeks of dermarolling and minoxidil. ive been on minoxidil for 3 years and finasteride for 2 years and never saw those before

 

[albert]

Just ordered 30% Glycolic Acid (like squeege) to apply at least once per week - will report if this makes any difference.

 

[saintsfan92344]

Danawhite1, thats the kind of stuff thats going to keep this going, if i can get the hair i have a little healthier plus growth like you have now i would be happy. What is your regimen

 

[badgenetics1]

First of all congrats on the regrowth, but it seems to me that it is mostly from finasteride and minoxidil. Unfortunately alot of us cannot take finasteride. But man keep it up. Thats why CB needs to go into trials soon.

That very well could be it. Since I was on Minoxidil for less than 4 months and finasteride for less than 3 at the time of the photos, it just seems like much more growth than normal. Going from an obvious bald spot to being mostly filled in is pretty dramatic. I don't know that, I could just be a great responder.

@badgenetics: how u roll without pulling hair out ?

I roll in the direction that the hair lies. So, I'm usually rolling from back to front. I have also found that taking a hot shower before rolling helps. I'm sure I'm pulling some hair out each time, but I've never noticed it.

 

[opti]

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/94/4/1288.full

Wnt3a-dependent keratinocyte growth was suppressed by the addition of dihydrotestosterone in coculture with DP cells that were derived from Androgenetic Alopecia patients, but growth was not suppressed in coculture with DP cells from non-Androgenetic Alopecia males

so baldin ppl have lesser Keratinization? that would make squeeges theory possible ,like he said that estrogen etc results in faster profileration and Keratinization

[h=1]Minoxidil activates β-catenin pathway in human dermal papilla cells: a possible explanation for its anagen prolongation effect.[/h]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21524889


Looks like there are 1000 things that f*** up hair regrow. But maybe thats why dermarolling doesnt work that good without minoxidil or finasteride

waiting for squeeges comments ,also dude get some pics of your hair

 

[Youcandoit]

Well I am getting results, even had some hairs develop below my hairline on 4th week, started first 3 weeks using a needle and poking scalp, 1 time using the dermaroller, no minoxyl, I started massaging scalp with crude oil after rolling. Will post pics to help you guys out when I see better results.

also taking 3-5000 of vitamin c and msm three times a day, started 3 weeks in, supposed to cure any condition according to a channeler named bashar who is a 6th dimensional alien lol. Don't judge me

 

[maher]

We are all waiting for squeeges photos... dude's under a lot of pressure.

 

[Youcandoit]

I think we had enough evidence with dermarolling everyone is waiting for someone else to do it first, your mental attitude accounts for a lot more than you think in growing back your hair.

 

[casperz]

By the way, guys, I have a sad finding to tell you about regarding all the enthusiastic "new hair from punch holes" reports: The holes you are seeing and from which your (new?) hair is growing are not derma rolling punch holes. I really wondered if neogenesis was possible just like this, and thus if just punching somewhere (where there was probably new follicle/DP before) seemed extremely unlikely. If the process was remotely deterministic, you shouldve had many more hair then.

Long story short, these holes are normal. They are the "mouth" of the hair shaft which always shows when a hair is spouting anew. Take a look at some cross sections of scalp biopsy tissue and you will see the hair shaft forming a tunnel up to the surface. This effect will even show when you get regrowth through minoxidil without any dermarolling. Get somebody on minoxidil to take microscope photos in areas where there's vellus hair and you will see exactly the same.

I know my scalp and the punch holes with hairs growing from them are clearly not normal or something I've ever seen. Prior to DR there was sometimes a random hole visible but they are few and far between. The first 4 pictures are taken a year ago showing Cet/minoxidil regrowth. There are no holes visible at all in those pictures and I could show you hundreds more just like that. The last picture shows DR holes with hair growth from each hole. Same camera for both pictures. It may or may not be neogenesis but I can tell you for a fact my scalp does not have holes where there has been no rolling. It does not really matter as long as there is regrowth and it continues I don't care why.

Also with Cet regrowth there was not the density that I'm seeing with DR. In a Cet frame there might be 5 to 10 hairs, with DR I'm seeing many many more hairs, typically one for each punch hole and they're much thicker, darker and they've sprouted in record time.

The first picture has two dots in the upper right hand corner made by a sharpie, I was trying to create a landmark
to watch the regrowth. Unfortunately the sharpie marks never lasted more than a day.

 

[benjt]

Interesting, thanks for your pics casperz!

Well, maybe I am wrong then. The thing, though, that made me check the punch holes stuff in the first place was that I found holes in areas of my scalp where I still have hair and where I never rolled. And these holes are definitely normal and part of the regular hair life cycle.

Maybe my wrongful assumption was that these holes which I observed and read up on are the ones everybody though to be caused by derma rolling, while the latter are indeed caused by derma rolling and not the natural holes which everybody has anyway.

Anybody else who can shed some light here, e.g., by more pictures of the natural holes? Unfortunately, I have no camera producing any useful results at that distance.

- - - Updated - - -

Wnt-dependent de novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17507982

i dont get it really ,because my english isnt the best.But does this study say that epidermal wounding leads hair regrow?So we dont have to go deep?

You have to distinguish here between where the wounding occured, and where they measured Wnt. Also, hair follicles extend over multiple layers of the dermis, cf. http://surviving-hairloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/hair_follicle_cross_section.jpg

http://www.follicabio.com/content/science-and-technology/

look at the follica pics,they say too,that trough epidermis wounding new hair cells are sprouting.

While Cotsarelis said that epidermis is definitely not enough.

so how thick is epidermis in balding scalps?

Only around 0.3 to 0.4 mm, if I recall correctly.

 

[ganonford]

benjt, you said before that now you think that dermaroller may not be doing anything at all...

But I'm just curious... what do you think now of the small regrowth you said you got (I know you said it was just a couple of hairs, nothing significant, but still...?

Do you think you were wrong and theres was no real change after all or what...?

 

[benjt]

I provided a hypothesis regarding that many pages ago. My theory is as follows:
The derma rolling did nothing for me in general. However, as all regrowth was at hairline, i.e. where I still have more or less healthy follicles, I assume the dozen or so new hairs that I got where the "hit by chance" that was bound to happen at one point. More precisely, I managed to strike exactly a hair follicle or around a hair follicle, thus destroying the fibrotic tissue exactly there and giving the follicle room to develop hair again.

This would explain why I got those few new hairs only at hairline, and not anywhere else. I covered a pretty big area (I'm somewhere between Norwood 2.5 and Norwood 3, only temples as of now) after all, and there was no new hair in the completely bald parts of my temples far away from the hairline.

Keep in mind though that this is nothing but a guess.

 

[casperz]

Here is healthy scalp/hair from the side of my head for comparison. No visible exit holes of any kind.

 

[Youcandoit]

I provided a hypothesis regarding that many pages ago. My theory is as follows:
The derma rolling did nothing for me in general. However, as all regrowth was at hairline, i.e. where I still have more or less healthy follicles, I assume the dozen or so new hairs that I got where the "hit by chance" that was bound to happen at one point. More precisely, I managed to strike exactly a hair follicle or around a hair follicle, thus destroying the fibrotic tissue exactly there and giving the follicle room to develop hair again.

This would explain why I got those few new hairs only at hairline, and not anywhere else. I covered a pretty big area (I'm somewhere between Norwood 2.5 and Norwood 3, only temples as of now) after all, and there was no new hair in the completely bald parts of my temples far away from the hairline.

Keep in mind though that this is nothing but a guess.

i just oust had surgery on my hand and some new hairs sprouted around and through scar, there is something going on with stem cells, I don't believe the just happening to strike a hair follicle theory, my other hand has no hair in same area. These hairs on my hand only like 10 hairs but they are thick and centimeter long. It's the wounding process, stem cells will be the cure and we just happen to wound the scalp which kicks in the stem cells creating new follicles or activating them.

I believe the longer this dermarolling is done the more chances stem cells will activate new areas to receive hair growth. I bet many willl have a head full of hair in 3 years.

By the way, has anyone tried any stem cell boosting supplements?

 

[ganonford]

casperz, in the last set of pics you posted... is the fourth pic of a place you did not roll and the pic number five from a place you did roll?

 

[maher]

I wish i had my placental membrane in the fridge :shock:

 

[zombiehair]

Great pics Casperz
more pics of what appears to be hair growing directly from puncture sites.

 

[Haircules]

Here is healthy scalp/hair from the side of my head for comparison. No visible exit holes of any kind.

thanks for the five photos - yes one clearly can see new hair coming from the holes - i guess one cannot see anything withou a mircoscopic camera, right? - do you have a link in which you posted your regime and how you proceed with your dermaroller? - maybe you could even add it in your signature for all users since your one of the leading rollers

 

[danawhite1]

Danawhite1, thats the kind of stuff thats going to keep this going, if i can get the hair i have a little healthier plus growth like you have now i would be happy. What is your regimen

thanks for the reply i was wondering if anyone even noticed my pic. my hairloss is different, my eyebrows were literally right below the cutoff for the pic, i have dupa which means i thinned more on sides and back and hairline is started receding a year ago. the silver lining of DUPA is that if you keep the sides buzzed no one can tell im losing hair. i figured if this stuff works for people with dupa it'll definintely work for male pattern baldness.

im on minoxidil, finasteride, and nizoral. with dermaroll. i experienced with iron dragon which helped at first but then lost effect.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe the best way to tell if this dermarolling is working is focusing on one terminal hair. reading this thread im noticing alot of people saying they notice tiny dark terminal hairs growing and its hard to keep track of multiple hairs. my theory is that i have my eye on 2 terminal hairs that barely sprouted up in my hairline where i havent had hair growth in years. im literally looking at those two terminal hairs in particular every single day. right now they're a little less than 1/8th of an inch and i'll keep dermarolling with minoxidil and in a month or two if they sprout to at least half an inch i'll know for sure dermarolling works.

before everyone here says it might be minoxidil or finasteride doing the trick, ive been on minoxidil for 3 years and finasteride for two, and the two particular terminal hairs im following is growing in a spot where i havent had growth since my teen years (im 25)