New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments? | HairLossTalk Forums

New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

Discussion in 'New Research, Studies, and Technologies' started by Jlyncher, Jul 15, 2013.

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  1. Jlyncher

    Jlyncher Established Member

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    http://www.ijtrichology.com/article...lume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;aulast=Dhurat

    Just wondering what you guys think of this. I'm sure some of you have tried it. I'm thinking of adding it to my current regimen of the big 3.

    1.5mm seems scary big tho...

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    Some pics from the link;
    Note that the micro needling group were using a 1.5mm roller once a week for 12 weeks. No minoxidil was used the day of the needling, however, minoxidil was used twice a day on all other days. Only minoxidil was used by the second test group. No finasteride was used in the 6 months prior, or during the study by any of the subjects.




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  2. hellouser

    hellouser Senior Member My Regimen

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    There's a huge thread on this at Bald Truth Talk:

    http://dft.ba/-btt-dermarolling-thread

    In short, two papers that Dr. Cotsarelis published support the wounding/dermaroller theory.

    1.
    He published a study (in 2007!) on wounding alone releases WNT proteins, which is what Histogen's treatment is based (but not fully).

    Source: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/may07/hair-follicle-regeneration.html

    2.
    He published another study 5 years later (2012) which states wounding + minoxidil generates new hair follicles:

    Source: https://www.google.com/patents/US20...a=X&ei=rsSvUdH8GoXXrQHhqoH4BA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA

    Check out the thread I posted and look at the results from PrettyFly83. There are MANY new hair follicles and not vellus, but terminal.
     
  3. IDW2BB

    IDW2BB Established Member

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    Can't get enough cow bell! Peace brother.
     
  4. squeegee

    squeegee Banned

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    Pretty impressive!! Thanks a lot!:salut:
     
  5. BrightonBaldy

    BrightonBaldy Established Member

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    lol.

    dermarolling and minoxidil? thats been tried by thousands online, including here, why is this now apparently so effective?

    whats changed?
     
  6. hellouser

    hellouser Senior Member My Regimen

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    Wounding with dermaroller, not dermarolling itself. I really doubt that in the past people were doing it under the same conditions;

    1) Deep dermarolling, near drawing blood
    2) Once a week only
    3) Applying minoxidil 24 hours AFTER
    4) Waiting the 5-7 days for wounding/healing to induce WNT proteins
     
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  7. BrightonBaldy

    BrightonBaldy Established Member

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    on the old incarnation of this forum we had a thread with about 50 pages on dermarolling with topicals and it died a death, i think we can be confident saying at least half were using it with minoxidil

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    I can accept the exact recipe above hasn't been tried before now but both needling and minoxidil have been around for more years than I know. I picked up my first dermaroller in 2006 on the advice of people who had been using it for a few years previous. I will follow with interest but it feels like old ground.
     
  8. Baldie101

    Baldie101 Established Member

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    BrightonBaldy, did the dermaroller work for you?

    I think someone with a dermaroller, minoxidil and baldness should make a thread where people with dermaroller, minoxidil and baldness try the recipe closely for those 12 weeks. They post a picture of their scalp at the beginning and then every 4th week or just at week 12. This way we will have our own "study" and truth shall be obvious. We will be able to see the process and they will be able to get see if it works or not. It should only take 12 weeks. It's not that hard, the question is are people willing to contribute when they already got the tools to participate.
     
  9. baldnesssadness

    baldnesssadness Established Member

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    Hellouser first of all i just wanna say you are one of the best forum users, you've been doing a lot of good things for hair loss community.

    I just wanna inform that i've been using voltaren 2 months now, and i have great results. Vellus hairs all over my temples and hairline.

    And i was thinking about trying dermarolling with minoxidil. Should i still continue with voltaren if i start this? do you think blocking cox 2 while wounding with dermaroller and using minoxidil will give better results?
     
  10. hellouser

    hellouser Senior Member My Regimen

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    Check PrettyFly83's photos from the BTT link I posted. Clear results for him, and impressive ones as well using the same wounding and methodology as in the study.

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    Thanks!

    I don't know anything about voltaren, however i do know that it is basically Diclofenac. You may want to check into its potentially side effects if it goes systemic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diclofenac

    If youre going to be using a dermaroller, its more likely that it may go systemic as well, as penetration and absorption will be higher.

    Personally, I'd get on RU/CB from black market sources first. However, there's nothing stopping you from using diclofenac (voltaren).
     
  11. Baldie101

    Baldie101 Established Member

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    I just read the thread. Thanks. I usually read that forum too when I got time, lately I haven't. I haven't read the study yet but I will.

    A little comment to PrettyFly83's results. He did not follow the recipe. He did it for sunspots first and the sideeffect was more hair while using minoxidil. So not the same methodology as in the study. ;)


    I'm agreeing with the theory that wounds heals and make the "organ" go back to the original baseline. I don't know where but I posted about the wounds on my wrists caused by scratching because of allergy. The result were that I healed perfect and I got hair growth on them. (mind you I'm quite hairy :hairy: Just not on my head...:sobbing:)

    I also said something about a study from Japan I read many years ago where they on purpose made wounds on the head and let it heal. That resulted in hair regrowth in patients. They gave up the idea of having it as future baldness treatment program because there was too much pain involved, heh.

    So based on these 2 things, the idea seems logical true. Now if it really works with a dermaroll + minoxidil is something time will tell. After all, PrettyFly83 has just started on minoxidil 3 months ago. It takes minoxidil minimum that much time before it works so it could be only minoxidil having an affect. Not being the devil advocate, just realist.

    greyghost got a great personality even with the wife leaving and being bald for a long time. Some people in other threads could learn from this person. He should totally post pics since he's an old user of the drugs. We will be able to see if he's getting results because of the dermaroll or not since he's been using minoxidil for years.

    I will be following that thread and this thread but not using dermaroll yet. I'm using momentasonfuroat to get rid of my dandruff which won't die no matter what. It works, and that's wonderful but I still got some weeks of applying before I can stop using it. I can't use the dermaroll and let that drug get into my blood. Not even by accident. So I will keep watching the others achieve results and then after a few months also start on it. Even if it doesn't help against hair loss, I hope I can still use it to get rid of the big dark spots I got had acne/pimples on my head.

    Btw it's a great idea that greyghost got. That people keep posting their findings and pics each Friday. That will show it they get results in 12 weeks like the study says or not.

    About the questions asked to the doctors. I don't think they mind. After all, if you found something great you would be more than willing to talk about it to others about your funds. The only thing PrettyFly83 should be aware of, is that he shouldn't sound like someone who's trying to snatch their idea but instead is trying to hear more about how great they are and how they did it.
    Another way could be to act like ph.d. students from a med uni and asked them questions related to their research so you could copy the same study and see if you get the same results. If they don't want to give details it means they are lying and won't like others to find out. If they do it means they are 100% sure it works. After all, having more studies in the world only proves the theory/concept you are screaming about.

    Still it's awesome of PrettyFly83 to take the initiative to contact the doctors in the study and ask them questions. Kudos.

    About the questions:

    [TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
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    [TD="class: alt2, bgcolor: #E1E4F2"]Originally Posted by PrettyFly83
    Hey all

    So I took some initiative and managed to make contact with one of the Doctors behind the recent microneedling study. I'm not going to post their details here as they could get inundated with random emails and we may never get the facts we're after. they have confirmed that they are using it as a treatment for patients which is another promising sign on its effectiveness.

    What I suggest is putting together a short list of queries we have which I'll request some clarity on. Whether we get any more information is another question as if they are using this treatment, its unlikely they will want to give away their secrets but its worth a try right?

    The following seem to be the biggest queries on the forum which all are welcome to edit:

    1. Needle size (0.5mm vs 1.5mm) to induce growth
    2. Treatment pressure used and Whether weekly treatment is the most optimum
    3. Why did study not use minoxidil on same day
    4. Whether bleeding is normal and to what extent
    5. Will the treatment cause scaring and possibly hinder natural hair growth

    Open to any opinions and views?

    Its probably best to first pose some fairly non threatening questions to see if they open up so maybe lets keep it to a max 3-4 basic questions.
    [/TD]
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    A few questions from me:

    6. Do results continue to show as long as wounding/dermarolling continues with the use of Minoxidil or is there a maximum achievable one can expect?

    7. How many norwood levels can this method potentially bring back a balding man?

    8. We're trials ever done with Finasteride and if so, did the results improve?[/TD]
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    [TD="class: alt2, bgcolor: #E1E4F2"][/TD]
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    I'm not gonna join BBT yet, so I'm gonna post them here and hope you will post them for me at BBT:

    9. How many needles on the dermaroller, 192 or 512? (well it can be put together with 1.)

    10. How many times should the dermaroll be rolling on the head? I read you did it 50 times but if they do it 10 times and doing it 50 is not good for the head...then you are damaging instead of helping. So quantity should be known too even if they study reads until mild erythema was noted.

    11. The method to roll it on the scalp. The guy in the video is just a random dude who's been making lots of videos talking about many different things. So I wouldn't give his "forth, back, right, left and then diagonal from both sides." any credit. Here we need to know how they rollin' :hairy:


    I really hope that this works. I use nizoral, finasteride and minoxidil. Getting rid of finasteride would be good. Not getting any sides but you never know when they could pop up. Also having a cheap way which works for nearly everybody...that would be soooooo awesome. It would get rid of nearly every fake hair loss moneymakers in this world where the chances are minimal to get your hair back.
     
  12. abcdefg

    abcdefg Senior Member

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    Maybe I dont have a fine eye for this kind of stuff. I just see some men that were badly balding in the before, and then are badly balding in the after. It looks bad either way why even bother with it? Some more hair makes no difference if its not a big cosmetically significant improvement.
     
  13. resu

    resu Senior Member

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    Less grafts if you need a hair transplant.
     
  14. hellouser

    hellouser Senior Member My Regimen

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    Might as well not bother with any treatment then as they all give no more than 'some' hair.
     
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  15. squeegee

    squeegee Banned

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    Just received mine from Amazon.. just poked my head with it.. 1.5mm bleeding everywhere lol.. will start minoxidil+ miconazole nitrate 4% with it. I wonder if copper peptides would be good?or atp boosters like d ribose or creatine..topically..

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1850226/
     
  16. ganonford

    ganonford Established Member

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    squeegee, squeegee, I got a question for youuu :wub:

    I think some imidazole compounds have anti-inflammatory properties. I may be wrong, I may be right, I don't know. But if I happen to be right, if the goal of dermarolling our scalps is to produce damage to some degree, don't you think it would be a bad idea to use an anti-inflammatory...?
     
  17. supermusic

    supermusic Established Member

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    I wonder if the achievements could be due to a more systemic absorption of minoxidil than to any other cause.
     
  18. ragsta

    ragsta Member

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    i bought this 1.5mm one. After reading btt thread not sure its the right one. but it is sturdy and came sealed.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170893033240?var=470190385638&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


    Anyway it hurts. i could hear the skin piercing with only 1 tiny spec of blood. It made me sneeze a few times like someone else said - something about nerve ends. Going to carry on using minoxidil twice a day apart from needling day. Have not used it much last few weeks, growth seemed to be stagnant. I'm just wondering if the 192 needle version will involve less pain.

    10 mins later its still burning. The burn sensation is similar to when your scalp itches after minoxidil and you scratch it like crazy - using a come
     
  19. Jacob

    Jacob Senior Member

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    I'm looking at one of those "pens" for this..and other uses. You can adjust the length.
     
  20. squeegee

    squeegee Banned

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    The guy from *********talk pretty me convinced me.. 2 month results.


    [​IMG]

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    Talking about the Dermapen?

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    Impressive results on burn scars : [video=youtube;DiWhybL-6f8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiWhybL-6f8[/video]
     
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