New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[cthulhu2.0]

[h=1]The 500 Dalton rule for the skin penetration of chemical compounds and drugs.[/h]Bos JD, Meinardi MM.
[h=3]Source[/h]Department of Dermatology, Academic Medical Center, University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]Human skin has unique properties of which functioning as a physicochemical barrier is one of the most apparent. The human integument is able to resist the penetration of many molecules. However, especially smaller molecules can surpass transcutaneously. They are able to go by the corneal layer, which is thought to form the main deterrent. We argue that the molecular weight (MW) of a compound must be under 500 Dalton to allow skin absorption. Larger molecules cannot pass the corneal layer. Arguments for this "500 Dalton rule" are; 1) virtually all common contact allergens are under 500 Dalton, larger molecules are not known as contact sensitizers. They cannot penetrate and thus cannot act as allergens in man; 2) the most commonly used pharmacological agents applied in topical dermatotherapy are all under 500 Dalton; 3) all known topical drugs used in transdermal drug-delivery systems are under 500 Dalton. In addition, clinical experience with topical agents such as cyclosporine, tacrolimus and ascomycins gives further arguments for the reality of the 500 Dalton rule. For pharmaceutical development purposes, it seems logical to restrict the development of new innovative compounds to a MW of under 500 Dalton, when topical dermatological therapy or percutaneous systemic therapy or vaccination is the objective.

Since vitamin b12 has a Dalton weight of 1350 and since 1350>500 obviously, I believe we are wasting our time mixing vitamin b12 with our minoxidil. Better solution may just be taking it orally.



- - - Updated - - -

besides the study mentioned with b12 and minoxidil was done in a petri dish with hair follicles(not the same as topical absorption)= no studies to date on topical b12 for hair growth.

 

[ganonford]

Waaay before in this thread princessRambo told us about the dalton rule. He also showed us some studies where they managed to get even 40 000 dalton substances on the bloodstream and how vigorously brushing your hair for some minutes works as good as iontophorensis or something like that, I'll try to find the post but as this thread has got gigantic it won't be easy.....

 

[buddyebsen1]

Would applying to a hydrated scalp right after a shower increase absorption of B12? I know it does for minoxidil.

 

[cthulhu2.0]

Would applying to a hydrated scalp right after a shower increase absorption of B12? I know it does for minoxidil.

I would imagine so, anything that increased permeation. I was actually looking through a few studies that mentioned dermabrasion(similar to dermarolling) increases absorption of hydrophilic compounds. I woul still continue to apply the two separately not knowing whether the two have the potential to degrade one another over time.

 

[buddyebsen1]

Regarding the number of pills and strength of the topical b12, I found this:

When topically administered in mixed preparations (0.5% minoxidil and 0.03% cyanocobalamin), the more grown hair weight (87.00¡¾8.39mg, P<0.03 t-test with 0.05% minoxidil) by mixed preparation was observed compared to those of single 0.5% minoxidil preparation (44.33¡¾14.96mg) & of vehicle preparation (22.13¡¾13.86mg).

100 mls solution with 3 grams b-12 = 3%
100 mls with 300 mgs = .3%
100 mls with 30 mgs = .03%

30 mgs equals 30,000 mcg.
So you would need 30,000 mcgs per every 100 mls of alcohol/water.

Seems to make sense.

 

[cthulhu2.0]

Regarding the number of pills and strength of the topical b12, I found this:

When topically administered in mixed preparations (0.5% minoxidil and 0.03% cyanocobalamin), the more grown hair weight (87.00¡¾8.39mg, P<0.03 t-test with 0.05% minoxidil) by mixed preparation was observed compared to those of single 0.5% minoxidil preparation (44.33¡¾14.96mg) & of vehicle preparation (22.13¡¾13.86mg).

100 mls solution with 3 grams b-12 = 3%
100 mls with 300 mgs = .3%
100 mls with 30 mgs = .03%

30 mgs equals 30,000 mcg.
So you would need 30,000 mcgs per every 100 mls of alcohol/water.

Seems to make sense.

This study was done in a petri dish with cultured hair follicles. It is not the sane as applying the solution to the scalp. I have learned to be very skeptical of in vitro studies. Just look at all the substances that have helped produce hair in vitro and in mice but not in humans, ex. Green tea, saw palmetto, reshi, etc etc

 

[DesperateOne]

I would imagine so, anything that increased permeation. I was actually looking through a few studies that mentioned dermabrasion(similar to dermarolling) increases absorption of hydrophilic compounds. I woul still continue to apply the two separately not knowing whether the two have the potential to degrade one another over time.

In the past, a small brush with thick fibers was suggested to exfoliate the scalp and therefore increase absorbtion. I bought one the other day and you can feel there's a big difference. Rambo pointed to the study a while back but I don't have the link. If b12 is only 8k dalton more, then the brush might close the gap, JMO

 

[Sparky4444]

...you know what? -- you guys are effin' nuts....you're all going off half-cocked (some fully cocked)...

...listen, this thread was based on the study where you rolled 1.5mm once per week and applied minoxidil 2x/day...they got results, so stick to the f-u-c-k-i-n study you dip****s...

 

[princessRambo]

This study was done in a petri dish with cultured hair follicles. It is not the sane as applying the solution to the scalp. I have learned to be very skeptical of in vitro studies. Just look at all the substances that have helped produce hair in vitro and in mice but not in humans, ex. Green tea, saw palmetto, reshi, etc etc

http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts/2006london/researchabstracts/14-park.htm

Two topical preparations of single dose of minoxidil (1%) and cyanocobalamin (0.03%) were topically administered with vehicle (ethanol/ propylene glycol/ water= 3/ 2/ 5)

B12 does get trough the skin easily in a soluble vehicle as pointed out above, anyone who can or can't use minoxidil should add it imo, it's dirt cheap and a potent growth simulator...Sorry for the peeps who pmed, was missing for couple of days, too much work, will reply asap...

- - - Updated - - -

The 500 Dalton rule for the skin penetration of chemical compounds and drugs.

arghhh, not this 500 magic dalton number thingy again.....The 500 dalton rule is what is repeated over and over and over and over again across all forums known to man dealing with topical administration of drugs citing this particular study, without any regards to context. The 500 dalton rule is a general rule that dictates how large molecules using passive diffusion, meaning, the passage is not facilitated by any bio-chemical reactions, the molecules basically wiggles their way through the stratum corneum mainly driven by entropy of the system. In passive diffusion, the smaller the molecule, the greater the degree of permeability through the skin. I also want to dispel a false assumption that a lot of people seem to have by repeating ad nauseum that certain things do not permeate through the skin. The skin is in essence permeable to all molecules, it is only how permeable certain substances are that is debated.

http://hotep.lyon.inserm.fr/urci/professionnels/Articles/26.pdf

The skin is directly in contact with environmental molecules which are present in the air or directly in contact with the epidermis. Despite the assumption that it has a barrier role which could prevent the penetration of molecules, the skin is permeable to all substances from the low molecular weight xenobiotics to the high molecular weight proteins. Only the degree of permeability varies depending on the physiological state of the skin and the chemical properties of molecules.

In the study above, they even pointed out the following below:

A threshold of 1,000 daltons was defined on the basis of physical/chemical tests on healthy human skin, above which the penetration of a molecule became impossible. This notion has always been in contradiction with the clinical observation of patients presenting contact urticaria to proteins and patients suffering from atopic dermatitis with positive skin tests to allergenic proteins [41, 9, 42].

Basically they are saying, this dalton rule is not applicable in real life, its just way more complex than that... proteins are extremely large molecules consisting of clumped up amino acids, they shouldn't get through the skin if the rule was ironclad.

That said, osmosis (a kind of passive diffusion) is also a mechanism of transport, and finally a lot of substance permeate through the skin using active transport, I have pointed out before an example of topically applied Hyaluronic acid, were they detected its polymer size of up to 40000 daltons in the skin and even detectable in the blood after topically applying it to human skin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571728

Hyaluronan absorption was similarly demonstrated without polyethylene glycol, which is usually included in the topical formulation. [3H]hyaluronan absorption was not restricted to its smaller polymers as demonstrated by the recovery of polymers of (360-400 kDa) from both blood and skin. This finding suggests that its passage through epidermis does not rely on passive diffusion but may be facilitated by active transport. This study establishes that hyaluronan is absorbed from the surface of the skin and passes rapidly through epidermis, which may allow associated drugs to be carried in relatively high concentration at least as far as the deeper layers of the dermis.

That said, even in the worse case of passive diffusion, in the one study I posted above, they noted that adhesive tape stripping leads to an increase in skin permeation:

This means that any alteration of this layer will be accompanied by an increase in the skin penetration of molecules and will allow the absorption of molecules which would not have been
able to penetrate a healthy epidermis. The total elimination of the stratum corneum by delamination with adhesive tape (stripping) leads to an increase in penetration by chemical
agents [5, 21].

I have also noted a study here that showed that vigorously brushing for only 10 seconds could increase skin absorption by up to 100 times (too lazy to repost the same things again and again...)
So please, let's drop this 500 dalton thing once and for all...

 

[cthulhu2.0]

http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts/2006london/researchabstracts/14-park.htm

My bad, however the study was not performed on humans. My main concern is if this study was so success, as demonstrated by the hair weight differentials, why they never bothered to test this in humans. It has been 7 years since the date of the study and this being the only study of its kind is another suspicion of mine.

 

[jason5]

http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts/2006london/researchabstracts/14-park.htm

My bad, however the study was not performed on humans. My main concern is if this study was so success, as demonstrated by the hair weight differentials, why they never bothered to test this in humans. It has been 7 years since the date of the study and this being the only study of its kind is another suspicion of mine.

There is no incentive for anyone to test it in a clinical setting. Follow the money.

 

[cthulhu2.0]

There is no incentive for anyone to test it in a clinical setting. Follow the money.

Although I do agree that there is monetary incentives behind clinical investigation, I do believe they would have poked further on this issue after these results. Often times results from human studies aren't posted if the results are not significant. Plus, the study that this 200-some thread is based on, is based on a study about a drug that is no longer patented and best of all, includes human subjects.

- - - Updated - - -

The only thing that should come into question about this study is the blood issue and how hard they rolled. Otherwise, I believe it to be extremely informative and well conducted

 

[princessRambo]

People tend to insist on topical vehicles for increasing permeability, it is pointless at best in my opinion and this study concludes it nicely:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995530/

Traditionally, chemical enhancers have been used to increase the delivery of small molecules and showed only limited success in permeation enhancement of macromolecules. Overall, chemical methods, although effective, cannot compete with physical enhancement methods that provide a greater magnitude of skin permeabilization.

The stratum corneum is very fragile, even adhesive tape stripping can improve your topical better than figuring out what molecular size a certain thing is or what vehicle ratio of alcohol, ppg, water, and this or that

- - - Updated - - -

Although I do agree that there is monetary incentives behind clinical investigation, I do believe they would have poked further on this issue after these results.

Really? You think this should make the news? b12, a natural available over the counter/too-good to be true kind of drug that can help your hair grow?... Well, look at curcumin: it has been shown again and again to perform better than most of the patented dangerous non-sense like lipitor, prozac, metformin (in the order of magnitudes of potentially thousands of times more effective), it has been proven effective against alzeimers, parkinson, even freakin HIV... why isn't this un-patentable magical molecule in the news? It should be, shouldn't it?

http://fitlife.tv/science-confirms-turmeric-as-effective-as-14-drugs/

just pubmed curcumin, you will have a decade worth of positive studies to read...

 

[Jacob]

Liposome/nanosome type tech is not "pointless". Now other "chemical enhancers"...probably.

 

[princessRambo]

Liposome/nanosome type tech is not "pointless". Now other "chemical enhancers"...probably.

Certainly. But I do think a lot of people can get by just by using cheap methods ... also I have seen studies where the main skin barrier, the stratum corneum, which is mainly dead skin, can be entirely removed without causing any injury to the epidermis, let alone the dermis by very light dermabrading.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995530/

A recent study by Gill et al. investigated the effect of microdermabrasion on stratum corneum removal in rhesus macaques and human volunteers in vivo. The effectiveness of the skin barrier removal correlated with the number of passes of the mobile dermabrasion device and selective removal without damage to the viable epidermis was possible

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0928098709001791

- - - Updated - - -

There is no incentive for anyone to test it in a clinical setting. Follow the money.

Just look at the follica patent about fgf9 and hair neo genesis. The patent was filed in 2008, the study which made news all over the globe was only published in june of this year. So what did they do after the discovery, first thing is run to the bank and apply for a patent... then 5 years later make your findings public. If this isn't about money I don't know what is...

 

[cthulhu2.0]

People tend to insist on topical vehicles for increasing permeability, it is pointless at best in my opinion and this study concludes it nicely:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995530/



The stratum corneum is very fragile, even adhesive tape stripping can improve your topical better than figuring out what molecular size a certain thing is or what vehicle ratio of alcohol, ppg, water, and this or that

- - - Updated - - -



Really? You think this should make the news? b12, a natural available over the counter/too-good to be true kind of drug that can help your hair grow?... Well, look at curcumin: it has been shown again and again to perform better than most of the patented dangerous non-sense like lipitor, prozac, metformin (in the order of magnitudes of potentially thousands of times more effective), it has been proven effective against alzeimers, parkinson, even freakin HIV... why isn't this un-patentable magical molecule in the news? It should be, shouldn't it?

http://fitlife.tv/science-confirms-turmeric-as-effective-as-14-drugs/

princess, the market for natural alternatives to diseases is by no means small. For example, the supplement industry is a multibillion dollar industry which is constantly growing. Although natural substances may be excellent preventative measures for certain diseases, you will be hard pressed to find research confirming natural substances are more effective than drugs like chemo in the treatment of cancer. That is why most natural substances are rarely compared to their pharmaceutical counterparts and are left only to in vitro studies and with mice. The fact that there are thousands of studies on the preventative nature of natural substances like green tea and curcumin show that there is a market for these substances. I was trying to find a clip from a southpark episode where stan gets very sick and mom turns to natural herbs to heal him. After a while, he gets sicker and sicker and eventually must resort to drug therapy or die. I was actually just looking at pubmed studies involving curcumin and cancer and was not surprised to find no human studies. It was the same thing with green tea. Lots and lots of in vitro and mice studies pertaining to cancer inhibition in vitro and with mice but few or none direct human studies. That is not to say green tea and curcumin are not excellent prevention tools for such diseases.

 

[odalbak]

I was actually just looking at pubmed studies involving curcumin and cancer and was not surprised to find no human studies. It was the same thing with green tea. Lots and lots of in vitro and mice studies pertaining to cancer inhibition in vitro and with mice but few or none direct human studies. That is not to say green tea and curcumin are not excellent prevention tools for such diseases.

Problem with testing natural stuff on humans is finding individuals with cancer that are willing to do these tests and not have conventional medicine instead.

 

[DesperateOne]

Problem with testing natural stuff on humans is finding individuals with cancer that are willing to do these tests and not have conventional medicine instead.

Lol I know, I wouldn't put my life on the line for a green tea study. Those tests need to be controlled, if you don't add chemo to your cancer regime, you're in trouble.

 

[Jacob]

The thing with liposome/nanosome type tech is it's not just about penetration/absorption, although that can be huge(there's a pun there somewhere). It's making the actives time-released...less of an active may be needed...this all can lead to fewer/no side-effects if that's something to worry about...can help with stability/preservation... etc. I started a thread some time ago on this but didn't keep it updated with things I was coming across and even posting elsewhere: http://www.hairlossfight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=228

 

[Aurelio]

Hey guys,
I'm about to join the dermarolling community. Then I have a question: is it ok to shampoo (Regenepure DR) right after dermarolling/bleeding, or should I wait a while before?