My Zix Experience - How B6 And Zinc Have Saved My Hair

[sunchyme1]

Ha! This sounds like it's from 2003/04. Is that from your memory or you re-read it? Im 39 now, I have always had leg and chest hair but I dont have much chest hair. Over the years it has come in somewhat but it's still relatively non existent.

To fill others in, I started finasteride at 20, and I dont think I had finished developing puberty wise at that age. I took it for 7.5 years, and even until this day I still havent developed a full amount of facial hair, it's rather patchy. I do think it has affected me, but at this point I am doing just fine with or without this extra body hair.

The one thing I remember, when I started balding, I was also losing leg hair, so it could be that the finasteride didnt cause the lack of body hair maturing, but i suspect it has....

lol i re read it mate. i went through a bunch of old threads last year from long term users posting about alternatives to finasteride. i read a sh*t load of stuff dating back to 2001/02 talking about everything from zix to fluridil to proxiphen. all of it.

i just remembered that post now because there is a similar one here atm talking about lack of body hair for finasteride users. it seems commonly reported with guys using finasteride

so i thought id ask to see what happened since you quit it. so your body hair is still fairly thin overall? i guess finasteride could have changed something, or maybe you were never meant to get that much body hair anyway. hard to tell i guess.

i just remember you saying how weird it was you being a grown man with hardly any body hair and its about time you started getting some lol

 

[worm]

lol i re read it mate. i went through a bunch of old threads last year from long term users posting about alternatives to finasteride. i read a sh*t load of stuff dating back to 2001/02 talking about everything from zix to fluridil to proxiphen. all of it.

i just remembered that post now because there is a similar one here atm talking about lack of body hair for finasteride users. it seems commonly reported with guys using finasteride

so i thought id ask to see what happened since you quit it. so your body hair is still fairly thin overall? i guess finasteride could have changed something, or maybe you were never meant to get that much body hair anyway. hard to tell i guess.

i just remember you saying how weird it was you being a grown man with hardly any body hair and its about time you started getting some lol

No doubt. I forgot to mention, at 19 I was starting to get hair on my hands and it was really thickening up on my arms, my legs were already super hairy, and my dad was a pretty hairy dude. I felt like I was heading towards his body hair profile. Now, with the exception of the 100 or so hairs on my chest, my legs and arms are much thinner than they were. I actually have bald patches on the back of my calves.

 

[whatevr]

96% ethyl alcohol, will that work too?
It's even purer than the 70% so I don't see how it would not. Perhaps just less of it is needed.

 

[whatevr]

96% ethyl alcohol, will that work too?
It's even purer than the 70% so I don't see how it would not. Perhaps just less of it is needed.

Also, how is this mixture even in accordance to the study?

They used pyridoxine, not P-5-P, and only a 0.025% solution which at 100 ml would be only 25 mg. You're using 140 mg's of P-5-P which seems like way too much.
The zinc if used alone should be around 700+ mg and if used in conjuction with pyridoxine only 1/5th of the concentration which would be around 140 mg's of Zinc (I understand you've increased the Zinc amounts over the years however).

It's mainly the B6 form that confuses me, and the amounts. P-5-P is supposed to be more active than pyridoxine, shouldn't one need less of it and not more?

 

[ClearVision]

I wanted to share my formula that I used again because my scalp feels very nice on it.
The extra ingredient that I use in the zinc b6 solution is a saw palmetto extract in vegetable palm glycerin. The brand is Hawaii Pharm which you can get on amazon.
The vegetable glycerin helps the ingredients absorbed better I think.

So I use:
25% dmso
25% liquid Saw palmetto extract
50% water.

I use a milligram scale to weigh out the powders to the desired amount then I add that to the dmso. I try to get most of it dissolved then I add the saw palmetto extract and water.

 

[worm]

96% ethyl alcohol, will that work too?
It's even purer than the 70% so I don't see how it would not. Perhaps just less of it is needed.

I answered that one already, I dont know how it will affect the mixture, as I was informed to use 70%. My local pharmacy only sells the 70% concentration as well, so Ive never had to consider other options. That said, in principal I dont see why it wouldnt work though.

Secondly, you dont absolutely need ethyl alcohol, Joe doesnt have it in his original zix, but does add it to you zix 2. I just add it to my version of the original zix, because I think it helps with absorption.

 

[farisayeh]

I answered that one already, I dont know how it will affect the mixture, as I was informed to use 70%. My local pharmacy only sells the 70% concentration as well, so Ive never had to consider other options. That said, in principal I dont see why it wouldnt work though.

Secondly, you dont absolutely need ethyl alcohol, Joe doesnt have it in his original zix, but does add it to you zix 2. I just add it to my version of the original zix, because I think it helps with absorption.

how much ml needed for the mixture ..if the ethyl alcohol 90% denatured?

 

[worm]

Also, how is this mixture even in accordance to the study?

They used pyridoxine, not P-5-P, and only a 0.025% solution which at 100 ml would be only 25 mg. You're using 140 mg's of P-5-P which seems like way too much.
The zinc if used alone should be around 700+ mg and if used in conjuction with pyridoxine only 1/5th of the concentration which would be around 140 mg's of Zinc (I understand you've increased the Zinc amounts over the years however).

It's mainly the B6 form that confuses me, and the amounts. P-5-P is supposed to be more active than pyridoxine, shouldn't one need less of it and not more?

You are correct that I am not following the mixture according to the study. My current mix comes from tweaking it over the years, and it's strictly based on what works well for me. I suppose the way I reason it, the higher the concentration, the better the effect.

There were some over a decade ago who were experimenting by adding 3x the zinc and said it helped them achieve better results. On my end personally, I tried this and found it improved my shedding and itching.

As it stands now, I have doubled the concentration of p5p, and I believe 6x the zinc from Joe's original formula. I only in the past few weeks added more zinc to go from 4x to 6x. You may think that it's overkill, and I havent concluded my experiment yet, however I am at the moment seeing improved results and am shedding about 30% less hair in the shower ; that's significant IMO.

So yes, I have deviated from the concentrations used in the study, however I have done so because I am experiencing much better results.

Another benefit of having a higher concentration is that I find my hair is easier to style as it acts as a natural thickener.

 

[worm]

I wanted to share my formula that I used again because my scalp feels very nice on it.
The extra ingredient that I use in the zinc b6 solution is a saw palmetto extract in vegetable palm glycerin. The brand is Hawaii Pharm which you can get on amazon.
The vegetable glycerin helps the ingredients absorbed better I think.

So I use:
25% dmso
25% liquid Saw palmetto extract
50% water.

I use a milligram scale to weigh out the powders to the desired amount then I add that to the dmso. I try to get most of it dissolved then I add the saw palmetto extract and water.

I have experimented with dmso in the past, I personally think you should exercise some caution using it.

That said, how is it working for you?

 

[worm]

how much ml needed for the mixture ..if the ethyl alcohol 90% denatured?

What is denatured?

I only use 20mls of 70% ethyl alcohol.

 

[farisayeh]

can i use vitamin b6(pyrodoxine hcl) instead of p5p(pyrodoxol5 phosphate...?is that any difference between this?

 

[whatevr]

You are correct that I am not following the mixture according to the study. My current mix comes from tweaking it over the years, and it's strictly based on what works well for me. I suppose the way I reason it, the higher the concentration, the better the effect.

There were some over a decade ago who were experimenting by adding 3x the zinc and said it helped them achieve better results. On my end personally, I tried this and found it improved my shedding and itching.

As it stands now, I have doubled the concentration of p5p, and I believe 6x the zinc from Joe's original formula. I only in the past few weeks added more zinc to go from 4x to 6x. You may think that it's overkill, and I havent concluded my experiment yet, however I am at the moment seeing improved results and am shedding about 30% less hair in the shower ; that's significant IMO.

So yes, I have deviated from the concentrations used in the study, however I have done so because I am experiencing much better results.

Another benefit of having a higher concentration is that I find my hair is easier to style as it acts as a natural thickener.

I don't think it's overkill, I was actually thinking of putting in at least 500 mg's of Zinc simply on the basis that the B6 potentiating effect perhaps doesn't work quite as well in the body as it did in that study, so looking at the numbers 15 mmol/L of Zinc itself was required for 90+% suppression which would be about 700 mg's. I don't want to use quite that much but I also feel like the original formula relies too much on the B6 effect in the sense of " we can use only 100-200 mg's of Zinc because the B6 will make it more effective ".
But what if that only happens in that study and not in the body you know? That's why I will use at least 500 mg's just to be sure that even if the B6 doesn't improve the efficiency there will be enough zinc on it's own to suppress a lot of the 5-AR.

How much zinc are you putting into the mix right now?

 

[whatevr]

I ran some numbers comparing the concentrations used in the studies, the original Zix formula, your stronger formula and what I plan to use. Maybe someone finds it useful.

Also it is important to note that most of the pills and powders that you can buy are Zinc Sulfate Heptahydrate which is not what they used in the study. This molecule is only 56% Zinc Sulfate by weight, the rest is water. The numbers on the right-hand side account for this and give you how much of these pills or powder you would need to use to achieve the same amount of Zinc Sulfate.

 

[farisayeh]

d

View attachment 48788

I ran some numbers comparing the concentrations used in the studies, the original Zix formula, your stronger formula and what I plan to use. Maybe someone finds it useful.

Also it is important to note that most of the pills and powders that you can buy are Zinc Sulfate Heptahydrate which is not what they used in the study. This molecule is only 56% Zinc Sulfate by weight, the rest is water. The numbers on the right-hand side account for this and give you how much of these pills or powder you would need to use to achieve the same amount of Zinc Sulfate.

do you have any study linked to the how zinc can supressed dht?

 

[whatevr]

d

do you have any study linked to the how zinc can supressed dht?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com.sci-...ionid=83FFD4B090417828A12A982442B3596A.f02t03
http://dx.doi.org.sci-hub.cc/10.1111/1523-1747.ep12606985

This second study shows that Zinc is only effective at suppressing Type-1 5-AR which is not the primary enzyme responsible for baldness, but I suppose inhibiting it could still convey some benefit. It is not nearly as good at inhibiting Type-2 5-AR.

Perhaps this changes in vivo and with a combination of B6. No idea. Either way I think the original Zix formula is way too weak and the amounts that Worm is using currently sound far more useful.

 

[worm]

can i use vitamin b6(pyrodoxine hcl) instead of p5p(pyrodoxol5 phosphate...?is that any difference between this?

I recommend you only use sulfate, from what I hear any other form doesnt work

 

[worm]

View attachment 48788

I ran some numbers comparing the concentrations used in the studies, the original Zix formula, your stronger formula and what I plan to use. Maybe someone finds it useful.

Also it is important to note that most of the pills and powders that you can buy are Zinc Sulfate Heptahydrate which is not what they used in the study. This molecule is only 56% Zinc Sulfate by weight, the rest is water. The numbers on the right-hand side account for this and give you how much of these pills or powder you would need to use to achieve the same amount of Zinc Sulfate.

Nice table, interesting to note about the heptahydrate vs sulfate. Im definitely not scientific, and so these types of measures are not something I have the knowledge to compare. That said I follow your reasoning, and by virtue of the fact that Im using the heptahydrate, the concentration of zinc Im using is in line with the study.

For the past 20 years, Ive always thought zinc has been important in treating male pattern baldness and seborrhea. Now being up to 3 x 220 mgs of zinc sulfate per 2oz/60 mls, Im starting to notice that my zix is seemingly more effective, which corroborates your analysis. Im still evaluating whether the additional zinc is in fact the reason im shedding about 30% less, but for the past two weeks ive definitely been consistently losing less.

I suppose 90% could be as good as it gets, however Im wondering if adding more zinc would have any possible added benefit. What are you thoughts?

Thanks for your contribution, this is some much appreciated insight!

 

[deraj]

Hey, @worm, and anyone else reading.

Firstly, cheers for all the help here, it's nice to see you and everyone else here being as helpful as they are. Much appreciated.

I have a quick question, I got excited and perhaps too hastily have made batch of something resembling your formula, just with the ratios different. Although i'm now a little unsure whether its the best mix. Basically, it's 100ml bottles (roughly 3.5oz) containing distilled water with a little ethyl alcohol on the top (roughly 10-15ml of the 100ml whole). Three 220mg zinc sulphate (660mg total) and four 50mg b6 p-5-p (200mg total).

I'm concerned there's too higher concentration of the zinc and b6. Although it's worth noting i can only apply once a day, and also i guess there's less alcohol in mine, so perhaps less penetration enhancement.

If you got time i was wondering if you could give your opinion on my mixture? Im unsure if too higher concentration could risk negative effects.

Cheers for your time

 

[worm]

Hey, @worm, and anyone else reading.

Firstly, cheers for all the help here, it's nice to see you and everyone else here being as helpful as they are. Much appreciated.

I have a quick question, I got excited and perhaps too hastily have made batch of something resembling your formula, just with the ratios different. Although i'm now a little unsure whether its the best mix. Basically, it's 100ml bottles (roughly 3.5oz) containing distilled water with a little ethyl alcohol on the top (roughly 10-15ml of the 100ml whole). Three 220mg zinc sulphate (660mg total) and four 50mg b6 p-5-p (200mg total).

I'm concerned there's too higher concentration of the zinc and b6. Although it's worth noting i can only apply once a day, and also i guess there's less alcohol in mine, so perhaps less penetration enhancement.

If you got time i was wondering if you could give your opinion on my mixture? Im unsure if too higher concentration could risk negative effects.

Cheers for your time

I think that sounds like a good concentration. I'm now using 3x220mg zinc in 60mls for the past 20 or so days and find its much better.

You can scale it back of course, but my recent success with it, says just see how it goes. If that doesn't work you can always try Joe's original. If anything u should notice less shedding not more. Try it for a week and if you don't see reduced shedding and itching, try Joe's version next.

 

[deraj]

I think that sounds like a good concentration. I'm now using 3x220mg zinc in 60mls for the past 20 or so days and find its much better.

You can scale it back of course, but my recent success with it, says just see how it goes. If that doesn't work you can always try Joe's original. If anything u should notice less shedding not more. Try it for a week and if you don't see reduced shedding and itching, try Joe's version next.

Thanks, man. Yeah, I guess the best thing is to apply for a while and see how it goes.

One other thing, in your experience, does it really not keep well at all and lose potency over time? Perhaps the alcohol could act as preservative? The original website claims it'll only last 2 weeks unless refrigerated, but I live in a shared house and would rather not have to explain the odd bottles left on my fridge shelf haha

Also, I use minoxidil once a day. The original formula site says about zix rendering minoxidil useless, but I plan on leaving a good deal of time between my morning application of minoxidil and early evening application of zix, so hopefully it wont be affected. I'll keep y'all updated.