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My theory for Male Pattern Baldness, care to poke some holes

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by frailstar, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    I haven't drank milk in about............................five or six years.

    Just got over the taste of it I guess. Milk is kinda hard to digest these days. Type one is in the sebocytes and sebaceous glands..................type 2 is in the follicle. Folks who dont have type two never bald, and thats why almost everyone who researches hair believes its the type two enzyme that is the important one. The sebaceous gland is a kind of closed system, and DHT made there probably very rarely makes it to the dermal papilla cell walls where androgen receptors are.
     
  2. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    I've been doing some reading, as well, and it appears as though the autoimmunity from bovine milk proteins is not due to the proteins themselves. It's due to ss-Cassein-A1 producing bioactive opoid peptides (ss-casomorphin-7) that is more highly absorbed across the intestinal lumen of women with immature gastrointestinal tracts. There is actually lower incidence of Type I diabetes and heart disease in populations that have ss-cassein-A2 variant in their milk. Also, that particular variant is associated with less severe symptoms of autism and schizophrenia.
    Adults seem to reap the biological activity locally on the intestinal brush boarder as ss-CM-7 can potentially affect numerous opioid receptors in the nervous, endocrine, and immune systems.

    The answer to the problem that you continue to bring up with regards to bovine milk proteins is not the milk itself. It's actually improper weening in the presence of an immature infant gastrointestinal tract with exposure to particular milk protein subtypes in susceptible populations.

    Certain milk protein subtypes are actually associated with better health and well-being. I don't think that you can make such blanket statements anymore and neither can your precious book. The science is far more complex than the rantings of one man in relatively unimportant book.
     
  3. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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    Who are these susceptible populations? Do we know? Also what about the US, do we have have a lot of ss-cassein-A2 variant in our milk? What populations do? This only brings up more questions than it actually answers. Whose milk is safe? Who's susceptible? This information is vague at best. The problem is that you can't ignore the compelling evidence in The China Study (or precious book as you like to call it). It clearly shows a nearly perfect pattern of those countries who consume the most milk (who knows and who really gives a damn what variant of f*****g casein was in it) and those who suffer the most Type 1 diabetes. It's beyond compelling. You can try and disqualify the information by trying to corner different components in the milk, or variants in the people, but the evidence is still there. It doesn't erase the glaring evidence. I think you need this book to be unimportant because it threatens you for some reason. You can call it precious and unimportant but T. Collin Campbell is not some diet guru, he's done the lab work, he's done the observations. This man has way more credentials than you. So I find it quite funny that you are calling this man unimportant. It just goes to show how desperate you are to disqualify this information.
     
  4. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    [​IMG]

    Genetics appears to be the dominant facter in the male pattern baldness equation. :wink:
     
  5. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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    I just discovered that the entire China Study book is online! Anyone with an open mind can go read it. Maybe now we can actually have an even discussion. And please, if you don't like this thread or what I have to say and don't like The China Study, don't have an open mind and just want to bash this book without actually having read it, please leave.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=FIRLLc ... esult&cd=1
     
  6. retropunk

    retropunk Established Member

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    Please edit your post and use tinyurl for the link.
     
  7. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    Does there exist even one set of identical twins, separated at birth, one suffering from male pattern baldness, the other not where the major difference between them is different diets? I do recall Michael Barry posting information about identical twins, where one twin was castrated before puberty and had all of his hair and the other non-castrated twin was very bald but when the castrated twin was injected with testosterone, he became just as bald as his non-castrated brother.
     
  8. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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    Not that I'm aware of. That would be amazing to see.

    The link that I just posted to The China Study, starts out in a place in the book that gives a good answer to the John Goodman question, and why it does not dismiss my theory.
     
  9. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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    Sorry about that, can you explain to me how to make that a small link, I was once an HTML editor and I still couldn't figure it out. lol Sad, sad.
     
  10. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Yup, sure does exist, and right on this very website in this PDF file here:
    http://www.hairlosstalk.com/download/whiting.pdf


    "............Men who have undergone prepubertal castration do not develop male pattern hair loss, but it can be induced by testosterone in those individuals who are genetically susceptible. This has been shown in an identical twin study, where one twin was castrated prepubertally, and retained his hair, while the other twin showed male pattern hair loss. When the CASTRATED TWIN WAS GIVEN TESTOSTERONE, MALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS RAPIDLY ENSUED......................"





    That info in in the PDF file under the paragraph in the first colum under the heading "Role of Androgens".
     
  11. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Respect at this study,

    Anyone can post the references?

    Michael Barry, you said: " The sebaceous gland is a kind of closed system, and DHT made there probably very rarely makes it to the dermal papilla cell walls where androgen receptors are."

    Please elaborate this aspect



    Armando
     
  12. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    I already told you who the susceptible populations are based upon their HLA subtypes. You can't tell who they are by their outward appearance. You need genetic testing. Plus, I told you that the protein make-up in the milk makes all the difference. Ingestion of a particular variant is correlated with Type I diabetes. Ingestion of another variant is protective for both Type I diabetes and heart disease. Scandinavia, for instance, has more of the diabetogenic variant in their millk while Iceland actually has more of the protective variant. Hence, that's why your little chart shows more type I diabetes in the scandinavian (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland) countries. In the U.S., about 20-30% of our cows produce the A2 variant naturally, which is probably why our incidence of Type I diabetes is lower than some other milk drinking populations. That combined with reasonable healthcare in those who are acutely ill is probably quite protective.

    I find your idols work to be vague. His work is full of generalizations and opinions that are formed from incomplete studies or loss associations that simply aren't even there.

    Here is an excellent example of a patent that has already been filed to allow for the proper processing of milk related products, so that they can be delievered to those individuals at risk of developing Type I diabetes through milk protein consumption. There are numerous other patents in circulation right now.

    http://www.pharmcast.com/Patents100/Yr2 ... 010207.htm

    A2 only milk is already available in many parts of the world including the U.S.

    http://www.a2milk.com/


    So, your little tantrum about milk is very biased and I believe you to be rather misinformed. The information contained within the book that you keep referencing is actually outdated as milks that are protective to the human body are know in existence and it is now known that the individual casein variants are what is causing the problem. Simply making a blanket statement that declares all milk to be bad is rather foolish, in my opinion. All milk is not bad. In fact, some milks are very, very good for you. Your goal should not have been to remove milk from people's diets. It should have been to give them a viable alternative.
     
  13. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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    Ok, but doesn't the risk of prostate cancer increase as well? Does someone who has been castrated develop prostate cancer? No, in fact castration is a treatment for prostate cancer. It's been shown that through diet, eating broccoli and cauliflower that you can dramatically drop your risk of prostate cancer, imagine if you went so far as to cut milk from your diet. Please skip to the section in The China Study about prostate cancer.

    A more interesting study would be if we had a set of twins who were genetically prone to be bald, fed one a vegan diet at birth and the other twin a typical milk and meat heavy diet. Would one twin keep their hair and the other lose it?

    I'm an identical twin myself by the way.
     
  14. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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  15. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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  16. frailstar

    frailstar Established Member

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    I just realized that the part about prostate cancer and it being linked to high IGF-1 levels is not posted online. You will have to buy the book, darn.
     
  17. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    If you read the studies close enough, you'll notice that prostate cancer is NOT specifically correlated with increased IGF-1. The individuals have to be obese, as well. However, high IGF-1/PSA levels are definitely cause for concern.

    High protein intake (whether it be soy or animal) IS associated with increased IGF-1 levels. For this very reason, protein should be taken in at recommended doses and intake should not exceed dietary guidelines. Many studies demonstrate that vegetable protein intake increased IGFBP as well leading to no overall IGF-1 increase. However, large doses are still not recommended.

    The other fact to consider is that dietary intake has differing effects across all the races. For instance, high fat intake is highly associated with high IGF-1 levels in caucasian males. However, this is not true in African American males as they see larger increases with high calcium and dairy intake. Also, increased vegetable intake is only positively associated with IGFBP increases in the African American population and not the caucasian population.


    Your book may be from 2006, but that doesn't mean that the studies are from 2006.
     
  18. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    The sebaceous gland makes sebum which is deposited into the hair "canal" where the hair will exit through the infidulum onto the skin surface. The sebum, according to Klingman's detailed study, seemingly AVOIDS the hair as much as possible and just gets up on the skin surface for the most part. The sebum CAN be reabsorbed back into the skin and DHT therein can theoretically find its way to the demal papilla cell walls where the androgen receptors are, but for someone who shampoos daily this probably isn't a very ordinary occurance as it would be washed off in a timely manner.

    The closed system of the sebacous gland refers to the fact that the duct opens to an area that carries the sebum OUT away from the inside of the body to the outside of the dermis. Type one alpha five reductase is in the gland, so there is some DHT (of course) in the sebum.


    However, since we know that men born without alpha five TYPE TWO enzymes, the kind of DHT made in the hair follicle's root sheath, dont ever go bald, we can deduce the type two isoform is much more important to Androgenetic Alopecia.
     
  19. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Post scriptum-----------



    Last time I waste a post on you Armando. I Dont believe anything about your hypothesis. I think its as wrong as the theory of the earth being flat and the sun orbiting the planet. Dead wrong, and in no way true. Period. Not going to waste my time on it at all.
     
  20. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Dear Michael;

    I dont want you waste your time with my theory, but you are only refer to the outside way of sebum, I think that there is another way to the inside of pilosebaceous unit, there is a lot of studies regarding titanium bioxide and its mechanism of absortion within hair follicle. On the other hand, a lot of people can see plug sebum in the inner part of hair follicle. Do you think about how it is possible if sebum only travel out?

    Yours sincerelly

    Armando
     

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